Need some help again

[justbestfriends]

Hi all. I was a fairly regular visitor on this board a few months ago. I stopped posting because in some ways I felt it was slowing down the healing process for me a bit as it meant I was focusing too much on my sitch. Anyway, after this morning, I felt I needed to revisit. I hope you'll forgive me.
My stats: Me 44
W42
D4
Together 17 years, friends for 23 years
Bomb September 2006 ILYB speech. Wanted to stay at home but see someone else at the same time.


I lived with this arrangement for 2 months with her out once a week seeing OM until I could stand it no longer and I asked her to go.

I think she's MLC but am not 100% certain. Certainly her selfishness has been extreme as was her partying throughout the winter. At the very least she's depressed and has been for a while now, though is worse of late. If she is MLC she's still in replay, searching for something to make her happy (she said this morning that she wasn't happy but that it had been the right thing to do)and in depression.

I have been doing pretty well, have had counselling and much support from people who love me. I know I will be ok and am less sure of my love for her than I was a few months ago.I am not ready to start dating, though.

This morning we had to talk about splitting up the furniture as the house is being sold and she got quite tearful. Later she told me unprompted that she had split from her OM earlier this Summer. We then had a long R conversation during which we both talked a bit about our feelings now and in the past and we did seem to have more of a connection than we have for some time. We both apologised a lot.

I said to her that if she was no longer seeing OM then we could maybe talk about us being friends. She wasn't happy about that because she said I was trying to control and what if they got back together. I said I didn't know but I wasn't trying to control her, I just knew I couldn't stand that relationship if we were trying to build a friendship and that is the truth. She said we could be more friendly, whatever that means but that she didn't think it would work us being friends (she has maintained from the beginning she wanted us to be friends and this is the first time she's said anything different. I said 'ok, that's fine but I am here for you if you ever need a good friend'.

I feel odd. I have prayed for the day when they split up for nearly a year now and I don't feel any better for knowing that it happened a few weeks ago (BTW for any newbies who are reading this, I couldn't believe that it would die a death sooner rather than later either).

I feel some rejection again that she still wanted things on her terms re: us being friends. She said friends shouldn't place conditions on each other. I felt afterwards that I should have said 'they don't emotionally abuse each other either' but of course I bit my tongue. Not sure if she just wanted to regain control of the situation.

Any thoughts from anyone out there?

[Lissie]

Hey Mr. Good to see you.
Your W sounds MLC-ish to me.

Honey, believe half of what they say.

It takes them a long while to get over the OP.

She does not want to be your friend, she does want to be your friend? They are so confused that they don't know what they want either.

Don't let her words rock the good foundation you have built for your self.

I am glad that she apologized for things, YOu needed to hear that, just as much as she needed to hear sorry from you also.

I would let her make the moves. Let her get close to you when she feels ready.

They are like scared children, it is sad to see.

My thoughts on all this, is that you are under control and she is well, doing the typical weirdness, while driving the crazy bus.

I am glad you have so much support on and off the board


Lissett

[LoginName]

Hi JBF, good, for me, to see you back, although I wish your life was so great you'd never need to come back - except maybe to help others or say hi.

Some thoughts...

I know I will be ok and am less sure of my love for her than I was a few months ago.

I'm struggling with that too. I started a thread to ask others what they thought love is. I just realized this week that I will always love my W, but it may feel a lot different than it did, or than I'd have wished it to. I worry, and others do to, that if they do "come back to us", we may not really want them back at that point. Tricky.

she got quite tearful

I feel I need to caution you on this. Don't assume you know why she is crying, or what she is feeling. Don't assume negatively or positively. Maybe someday you can ask her why she is or was crying. Maybe you won't want to know the answer. Don't assume she is crying because she is sad about the end or the M/R or for what she has done. I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't assume.

we did seem to have more of a connection than we have for some time

Maybe she is getting closer to where you and she can start rebuilding. What am I saying... every time you have anything to do with her, you are rebuilding your relationship. But it does sound like a positive sign. Don't get your hopes up. Don't project. Don't think the battles one. Don't even think it's a battle. It's a possibility.

We both apologised a lot.

I bet it meant something to her to hear you apologize too.

I said to her that if she was no longer seeing OM then we could maybe talk about us being friends

Maybe this is controlling, but it's your boundaries. If it's what you need, then stick to it.

Love, and friendship. What does it mean to be friends with her? You already are, I think. You've said you'd be there for her, right? You share you daughter with her. You're not trying to hurt her. There must be different levels of friendship. I think you are saying you can't be a really close friend to her until the hurt is gone - and as long as she is seeing the OM, it's hard to get over that.

I think our Ws definately have a fear of being tied down or controlled. That is why she is saying she doesn't think you and she can be friends. You made a demand, she pulled away. If you back off again, not mentioning th OM (my feeling is that it is best never to mention the OM, no matter how much you want to ask or know. Every time you mention OM, it gives him power and relevance), not making demands (but also knowing inside that you can't be close friends with her for now, and knowing your boundaries), acting like a friend without talking about being friends, she will probably move back toward you.

That OM stuff, or OP, to be non gender specific, is tough. Last night I called my D to wish her goodnight and talk to her about her day. My D said that my W was on her cell phone to someone. For some reason, I assumed it was the OM. I tried to shake the feeling, but it was tough. It would sure be easier if my W would say and promise that the A was over (I think it is, and she has said things to that affect. I just want it clear). But then again, would I believe it? I think we have to deal with the OM and jealousy ourselves. They could help, ending the A would help, but in the end, we have to make peace with it inside of ourselves.

You're right,friends don't emotionally abuse each other. For me, dealing with this goes to the topic of unconditional love, and forgiveness. Of course, I think you can unconditionally love someone, and forgive them, but that won't make a M/R work necessarily. I think it makes the person who forgives better and healthier though. And that's what a lot of our journey is about, making ourselves stronger and healthier, regardless of the W, spouse, M/R.

Welcome back, if that is the right way to put it.

[justbestfriends]

Thank you both for your generosity of spirit, and not for the first time either.

Lissie, you have posted to me and made me smile before, you always make me feel better. Thank you.

LiN, buddy, you were a great source of support for me last Spring and I have thought about you a few times. I agree with what you say completely. Since I met with my W on Sunday the situation's been in my thoughts a lot but I've also been feeling more at peace too.

We had a few positive interactions via text yesterday but I do have zero expectations of our full relationship being restored. I can see us being good friends in the future and whilst part of me does still want the full package, I think my W is never really going to be capable of doing that again, certainly not with me anyway but maybe not with anyone. She is a hurt, damaged person and still isn't doing anything serious about dealing with that. I was hurt and damaged too but despite still being sad, I'm so much stronger.

On Sunday I thought it was really interesting how we both dealt with the conflict in what we were saying. I was strong enough to acknowledge my faults and didn't need to 'point score' and convice her of anything whereas her responses were much more like how she would have dealt with disagreement in the past (rolling her eyes or shaking her head when I talked about my feelings for example). It made me realise just how much I've grown whereas she still seemed stuck in old patterns.

Interestingly, when she saw I was no longer dealing with conflict in the same way she softened and started apologising to me.

I hope life is getting better for you day by day. It does get so much easier, doesn't it?

[LoginName]

JBF, I have to say I don't understand MLC. I've read a lot on this board about it, and I think it was Smurf who put together a lot of the MLC posts in one place. It sounds too awful to me. I think, given a full blown MLC, I would have to detach almost completely. I don't think I could put up with a lot of things people do put up with. Then again, I never thought I'd be able to deal with what I have had to deal with.

When I got advice from ToughLover, it was always straight forward, blunt, and given in a way that seemed to me that TL had no doubt about what he was saying. I always start with a preamble explaining my limits and lack of understanding. TL's advice would sometimes make me angry, because I would think he wasn't understanding, or that he was right on one level but ignoring others. I just wanted a little understanding sometimes.

Which way is right? I think both are. I think I needed the TL style of advice, but also the more understanding type. In the end, we make up our own minds anyway.

Reading other's sitches, I am sometimes tempted to tell them to get out of the M/R, that it's not worth it. Why do that to yourself? Isn't it unhealthy at some level? Doesn't it just enable the spouse? But that's not my decision. Obviously, I can't know the other person's sitch from just their posts on this board.

Having said that, I feel you are making the right choices for you. I think I would have made many of the same choices.

Lissie's post was very good. It did make me think of something though... Is it helpful, in the long run, to judge the spouse and say they are the crazy one? (They are, but does it help us to think that way?) From my situation, I keep trying, with varying and limited degrees of success, to put myself in my W's shoes. What is she thinking or feeling that could lead to her actions? Sometimes I feel I catch a glimpse of what she may feel. Most of the time I have to admit I don't know and can't know. Most of the time, I try to accept that to her, it make sense. I can't change that, or change her mind.

Sometimes it helps me to blame my W, to assume it's MLC (if my wife is MLC, it seems to be much milder than most, but still - at least MLC is an explanation, and I desperately want to understand what happened). But now, I feel more that it's just something that happened and I may never understand. She did what she did because she felt she had to. It feels mean, petty, and childish, for me to blame it on her and assume she must be totally illogical.

Yes, she left and she left the kids. I'm not excusing her behavior; I'm just trying to let it go.

Does that relate to your sitch in anyway? Your W had an A will living with you. Your W is out partying. Your W seems to be in a stronger MLC than mine. Our sitches are different, but maybe there are still some similarities. I'm sure much of this has not been easy for her. She must have her reasons for her actions, as wrong or illogical as they may seem. My W told me she felt so trapped and depressed that she thought about driving into oncoming traffic. If she felt like that, she had to run. Feelings, I'm learning, trump logic. There doesn't have to be a logical reason for actions, and you can't argue with someone’s feelings. You can't say "no, you don't feel that way, or shouldn't, and here is why". People feel what they feel.

I think we are learning, through this painful process, how to ride our feelings, guide them, and see the deeper meaning in them. Maybe someday our spouses will too.

but I do have zero expectations of our full relationship being restored. I can see us being good friends in the future and whilst part of me does still want the full package

Isn't that an interesting place to be in? Maybe you can have the full package someday. Maybe the full package won't be as you imagine it to be. I think we are both at the stage where we can hope for reconciliation and love, but not be attached to that hope. It's a bitter sweet kind of feeling. It makes me aware of that deep strength that we have now.

I thought it was really interesting how we both dealt with the conflict in what we were saying

This is a good feeling too, isn't it? My W has been baiting me lately. I can hear the anger in her voice at times. She challenges me. In a way, I'm flattered. She must still be attached to me and give a damn if she can be angry. But I don't take the bate. Someday, maybe, she'll have to work through that anger and vent it toward me. Meanwhile, I don't want to play that game. I don't want to get angry in return, or try to be nice to her to make her happy. I choose not to play the game because I've reached a level of detachment.

Which goes back to our problem, JBF, how do we work for reconciliation, when we have detached enough that we don't care overly much if we are reconciled? How do we love them? Why should we love them? What the hell is love anyway?

So we leave the door open, while we go about our own lives. We hope for the full package without depending on that hope. We worry that when and if she wants to have the full package, we might not - or at least not with her.

We still want help and support sometimes, but I don't think we need it. Your post sounds like you are doing well. I love that

was strong enough to acknowledge my faults and didn't need to 'point score' and convince her of anything

and you noticed her reaction to your growth and change. Of course, her reaction is not the goal, but it's interesting all the same. Part of that weird balancing act we have to do of caring and not caring, hoping and not hoping.

If nothing else, by finding that strength to Not have to score points, to admit our own faults, we are better, healthier people. Our lives will be better for it, and our kid's lives too. We will still face heartache in the future, no doubt, but we're stronger than before.

Obviously, I felt talkative. Thanks for letting me ramble.

If you get the time, fill me in on what's going on in your life. New job? Moved? Daughter in school? Read any good books? ( I just read "Blink", about how our subconscious mind makes decisions. Interesting stuff. My W recommended it to me. I thought we'd both read it and discuss it. She started it, and then stopped. I've finished it. Go figure. I'm reading an article about William James and Pragmatism that is really exciting me.)