need help to win back WAW

[DaveJ]

Hi all. Where to begin... We are both 30, been married almost 7 years. Been together almost 8. Have a S4 and a D1.5. My wife K declared that she is absolutely done and wants a D on the day before my bday (8/12) just before we are about to go out on a date. This was caused by my complaining that she's not wanting to spend time with me. K's 15yr old cousin was visiting from out of town and she spent the entire week with her (including being out until very late every night...12am etc) and basically mostly avoiding me. My complaint turned into her feeling I'm being needy and smothering her and she has had enough and she doesn't have any respect for me because of my "neediness". Of course me being insecure about us and her virtually ignoring me for a week after things seem to be going well isn't considered. She wanted D on father's day about 3 months prior (yes I'm cursed it seems with these special days) and I told her will do everything I can to make this marriage work. Well for 3 months I tried to improve myself. I'm working out, being supportive of her training, trying to interact better with my S4. Be available emotionally for her and etc. I thought things were improving and going great. But she fessed up and said she was pretending/acting to trying to make her feelings come back and they aren't. One day she even said she's very close to putting on her wedding ring again. And it ended up she's making her feel that way trying to trigger something and nothing happened. So I was thrown for a big loop. She said she will no longer "pretend" because it's disgenous. If she doesn't feel it she isn't going to try. She says she loves me as a person and father but has not been in love with me for 3 years. She has sex with me sometimes but most of the time she isn't interested since to her it's really only a physical thing but nothing emotional anymore. She said she doesn't want to pretend anymore because it isn't genuine and she doesn't want to hurt me by keeping my hopes up.

Going back to our history. We never had an easy marriage. We never communicated well. I'm stubborn, she's stubborn. For years she did things that she thinks would make me happy but didn't because I really wanted to know what she wanted instead of just doing that. She resented the fact that she did that so of course resentment towards me. She has always struggled with her self image and has issues with bulimia. Of course being immature, selfish, and stupid, I didn't help the situation by suggesting sexier clothing, her wearing makeup, buying her lingerie and shoes and etc that she doesn't want to wear. So more resentment towards me. Also, being a man, I want to fix things. So instead of listening to her needs, I just tried to offer her solutions and lecturing her about why she's feeling this and that way and making her feel stupid over the years probably. Not only did that make her resent me, it made her gave up on coming to me for anything since I'm not available to her. And another really bad thing. When we had major fights in our earlier years, she always made big threats about leaving. It made me really distraught and I have threatened suicide a few times. Now thinking back on it I don't believe I really meant them but it did feel like the end of the world to me when she wanted to leave. I don't think I'd ever carry through with that but now I do realize it is emotional blackmail since she felt she is trapped. So more resentment. When our D1.5 was born, K had a really bad case of postpartum depression on top of all sorts of health problems. I was absolutely overwhelmed having to take care of my S4, my newborn D, and K, and having to work full time. I can work from home when I want so I ended up doing everything. I was burned out and shutdown. I couldn't be there emotionally for her to deal with her depression. She said at one time she almost killed herself because she is so depressed. I was withdrawn and only get mad at her for feeling that way because I was feeling so helpless trying to survive and not able to do anything about getting her better. Also I get a bit loud when I get emotional and agitated and to her that's considered I'm yelling and she really hates that. She really does not like it when I "yell" at her or my S4 when he's being bad. We've both done our fair share of screaming and yelling and saying hurtful things however. Except I forget and forgave about those hurtful things the next day and she remembers every single one of them to this day. So adding to the list of more resentment. For the past year I have been constantly asking her to try to reconnect and spend time with me in order to save the marriage. But she would try a few days and we would be good and then end up avoiding me and spend all her time on the computer browsing and talking to other people online eventually. Although there is no trust issue right now. We have straightened that all out and I trust her 100% and know she will not do anything stupid to hurt me. There was an ex involved but it's no longer an issue and it didn't get very far. Just some emotional infidelity (and couple kisses) that I have forgiven her and we moved on.

So now she says despite of the improvements I have made, it may be too little and too late. K said that if only I realized all that 3 years ago it may have been different. K says she can see that I am doing everything I can to make things better and she's really happy about that. But she isn't sure she can get over the resentment or wants to and the feelings just aren't there.

After some long talks, she does starting to see that I do truly realize the pain and suffering I have caused her and I want to be a better person, a better husband to her, and a better father to our kids (not that I'm not, I just have a hard time with my son sometimes since he is so stubborn and misbehaves badly when he doesn't get attention and I used to yell at him). She sees that the light has finally came on for me and I'm not stuck in this little bubble of denial and pretend that things are fine. For the first time in a long time, in the last few days, she started to say that she really wants this marriage to work and there is just too much to lose. But the bottom line is she is unsure how she will get over this many years of accumulated resentment and how to get her feelings for me back that has died long ago. We are both seeing therapists individually. She said that she wants a separation to sort out her feelings and see if she will have feelings for me when I'm gone (if she truly misses me that is). We agreed on re-evaluating after 30 days and see where to proceed from there. See if she can make progress on the resentment thing and we can start rebuilding. If so maybe we can go see a therapist together. We are both trying to be positive and be optimistic. Ironically we are quite wonderful to each other right now. We kiss, we hug, we say ILU to each other. We've never been this good for a long time since when we were first together.

So I'm suppose to move out in about 3 weeks. She's going to be gone 10 days with the kids visiting the in-laws. The father in law just finished up his chemo from cancer. We are hoping for good news. This has been real hard on her in addition to us and her struggles with self image and eating problems. We live about 2k miles away from the in-laws. Being far away from her family has been really hard for her all these years. She has made a huge sacrifice in being with me and away from her family because my job is here. I think just being agreeable to do the separation has nudged her my way since she has been asking that for a while now and me finally consenting shows that I'm listening to her needs. She said that I can visit the kids about 3 times a week. So my question is what should I do? Is visiting the kids 3 times a week giving her space to figure things out? Kids are very important to both of us and we want to shield them from everything if possible since we are both going to try to make this work. Is there anything I can do to help her get over her resentment. What can I do to help her get her feelings back? She thinks that minimal contact between the two of us is best in the 30 days. So I will be positive, not acting needy, not make demands, no initiation of email, IM, phone, not badger her with questions and always talk about R, and etc. If she breaks down and calls me crying or wants me to come over, will that ruin the process of her trying to figure things out? I don't want to give her "mini fixes" and end up blocking the feelings she's wanting to see if exists. We both want this to work. I just don't want her to call it quits in 30 days because things aren't progressing for her due to the almost non-contact.... Any shared experiences, words of wisdom, or words of encouragement is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[Not Much Left]

You started this with "where do I start?" so I will give you my 2 cents.

You do need to give her space. This sounds very much like my W the first time this happened to us. Resentment, that damn word. It happens to all of us. The more you need, the more needy you become, she resents you and it keeps building on itself till one day, bam, you are in this sitch.

Let me say, as we always do, so sorry you find yourself in this mess.

Believe it or not, there are alot of encouraging things in here. Physical touch, very important, words, for what they are worth of kindness / ILY are at least signs that she still has "feelings" for you regardless of some of the other things she is saying.

Big pts here
1. Believe nothing they say, and less than 1/2 of what they do
2. Give her space. 3 times a week is not too much IMO.
3. If she comes to you crying or whatever, listen closely and validate what she is saying, dont get defensive or explain YOUR case or express YOUR needs, they need to be put on the backburner for now.
4. Fake it till you make it.
5. Manage your emotions carefully around her right now.
6. She is hurting so badly, she is in a fog. Realize that when she is talking to you.
7. IF WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY WILL NOT HELP YOUR R OR M, DONT SAY IT
8. Going back to pt 3. Space, Time, PATIENCE. 30 days is nothing. She will come to you, I promise.

Anyway, just getting started, hope this helps.
You are going to be OK, ok?

C

[DaveJ]

Thank you so much for the advice. A few follow up questions.

You do need to give her space. This sounds very much like my W the first time this happened to us. Resentment, that damn word.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by "first time"? I'm really hoping this won't be a roller coaster anymore and we both finally realize what's good for each other and try our hardest to make each other happy. Then again, life ain't so easy usually and straight forward.... And I agree. I really hate that word!

1. Believe nothing they say, and less than 1/2 of what they do

Even if they say they will be completely honest with you from this point on? I suppose them being confused cannot help. No offense to the women out there but it does seem they change their mind quite a bit. Drives me crazy with just something like getting dressed....

3. If she comes to you crying or whatever, listen closely and validate what she is saying, dont get defensive or explain YOUR case or express YOUR needs, they need to be put on the backburner for now.

What if she calls and says she misses me and wants to see me? Do I go over or should I not be so available?

8. Going back to pt 3. Space, Time, PATIENCE. 30 days is nothing. She will come to you, I promise.

She is extremely impatient and tends to want to see results immediately. Thus we keep having this roller coaster thing. She keeps checking herself, finding little or no progress and gives up. I have pleaded with her to have patience and give it time. How else am I suppose to show her I'm different and better.... I hope somebody up there give her the strength and courage to have patience.

Anyway, just getting started, hope this helps.
You are going to be OK, ok?

Yep. That helps a lot! I'm going to keep positive and hope for the best. She has actually said that she's really proud of the way I have been dealing with this and being positive.... Which I take it to be a positive sign.

[Puddle]

Hi DaveJ,

Sorry you find yourself here, glad you found the place. You have so many positive signs, in that your W says she's willing to work on your M. It's great that she's in C---she needs to work on herself for herself, if your M is going to stand a chance down the road. You're on a good path, too: you're able to identify the mistakes you made and you're working to address your own issues. This is obviously the only part you can control, and you see that you've tried to run the show before, so taking control of yourself is where you want to focus.

What if she calls and says she misses me and wants to see me? Do I go over or should I not be so available?

That's a tough one. If it were me, I might ask her whether she's sure, but I'd go and use it as a chance to hear her, validate her feelings (is that something you're familiar with?), and show her you can just listen without pushing for anything else. If I were her I wouldn't ask, but of course that's a separate issue, and not yours. So I'd say if you're free, go, but if you don't want to go, do not tell her she needs this time by herself to think (or anything else). She has to be free to dictate her own needs. My DH is telling me what I need sometimes right now and I want to thump him---even if he's right, I get to say what I need.

Others may have a different perspective on this for you.

How else am I suppose to show her I'm different and better?

You're going to have plenty of interactions with her, even just around picking up and dropping off your kids. Be upbeat and cheerful, don't bring up your R, and she'll notice. Heck, she already told you she has. You can control whether or not and to what extent you change; whether or not it's the change she needs or enough, she'll have to decide. Let go of it, as extraordinary a feat as that is.

And in the end, if you make positive changes in your life and it doesn't save your M, it'll improve your own life and your R with her, and that's worth a lot.

Keep posting. I wish you all the best.

[DaveJ]

A little update... Today W mentioned that she really wants to make things work but she's struggling. She says she has a hard time believing that I can just do an 180 just like. She says that she has a hard time believing that for a long time I want her to be/look like somebody that's not her and now all of sudden I just want to love/accept her for her. It seems to be impossible to make her understand that when you realize/understand something it's not hard for one to think/feel/behave differently when you love someone.

My biggest fear is that her imagination will run wild while we are in our S and she'll get herself down, go to that bad place, and convince herself that she can't get over the resentment and that my changes are just temporary. She tends to be very impatient with things. She said she'll take 30 days to evaluate things. I REALLY do not want her to go from somewhat optimistic to feeling hopeless and just quit.... Wish she would just get it that no way in hell I want to go back to the way it was just as much as her. I'm not a masochist and I'm not a malicious evil person that wants to do her harm. Why would I want to make her miserable and have both of us unhappy?

Is there nothing I can do?

[Disillussioned]

Dave,
Just wanted to through my support your way. I've ready your advice on my thread and wanted to thank you for that. Not sure what advice I can give you. You seem to have your act pretty well together and are doing well with the DBing. That the W says she wants to work on it is definitely a huge plus. I still haven't been able to get that sort of response from my W yet.

[DaveJ]

Disillussioned,
Thank you so much for your support. I need every bit I can get. I really hope that things work out for you as well!

[dlt1]

Hi Dave,
Take it slow and give her that space. Avoid R talks for now. If she brigs it up, listen, validate. It's not time for you to communicate your feelings/explanations/etc. Sounds like you have really been working on you, keep it up. Here si something I struggle with big time: try to accept that your M could be over. Not saying give up or anything like that. But, imagine/think about the next stage in your life with out W. What more would you do for yourself? It is terribly hard to fathom this, I know. Try thinking about it (and it hurts to do it) and see if you find another 1-2 things you would do differently. Try making those changes. Thsi is time for you to focus on your needs from yourself.
Don't push W, and be careful on even encouraging a lot, a little yes, but don;t over do it. It's a fine line, live and learn. Journal so that you can remember what worked and what caused problems.
Wishing you the best!

[Nugget]

DaveJ. You have all the tools that you need here (the easy part). You just have to put them into practice (the hard part).

Things to do:
1. Be patient
2. Actively listen to what you W is saying
3. Avoid anger
4. Learn quickly to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
5. GAL & take care of yourself
6. Be strong and confident
7. Do a 180
8. Gain all the knowledge you can

Things to avoid:
1. Do not be desarate or needy
2. Do not talk about yourself when you speak to W
3. Do not believe any of what your hear and only 50% of what you see
4. Do not give up, no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
5. Do not backslide from your hard earned work

How to act with WAW:
1. Be loving in return
2. Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all
3. Do not ask questions about your future together
4. Be vague when ask questions about your changes
5. Continue to be positive and upbeat "Act As If"
6. Do not say "I love you"
7. Resist getting into R talk
8. Beat your spouse to the punch when it is time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity.

You know what needs to be done, hopefully you know how to do. Now the hard part. Just doing it.

I am here for rooting for you.

[DaveJ]

6. Do not say "I love you"

This one I have a hard time with. Shouldn't you say it when you mean it? She says the same to me.... Lately at times over the phone she would say it before I do. Do I need to stop saying it?