Changing mountains into speed bumps!!!

[Nugget]

I need some input on how to help my wife to get past the anger and resentment she harbors for me.

Quick re-cap of my M. Married 15 years. One child S2. Separated 4 weeks. I filed for a D the day of separation, which is finalized, to make her feel safe that I was not going to take S from her. She fits the typical WAW to a “T’. I care about you. I do not love you. I do not want to be married to you. I do not want to work on our R. I am done. I need to be on my own. I need my space. Etc, etc. etc.

I more or less pushed for the separation. Was tired of the rut we were in and had not seen much improvement from 11 months of DBing. Since our separation we have been getting along together very well. We go out (the three of us) almost every night to dinner. We spend most the weekends together. She even invites me to go out, which is something she rarely did before.

Over the last two days we have been having some pretty heated arguments about our futures (not our futures together, but where each of us are going to be living and where are son is going to be enrolled into school). Anyway those arguments did not lead to any resolve themselves. But, some very good insight did come from all that pain and anguish. After too many hours of butting heads, I was getting frustrated and angry of getting now where and so I decided to play psychologist and probe into why our marriage has failed and to see if I could find some answers as to how my W became the WAW.

Here is what I understand. She says things have actually been great (great, meaning not as bad as before) for the past two years. She says that for the past 2 years I have been less mean to her. I have had fewer outbursts. I have been less controlling and more supportive. She told me that she has even told her friends that the last 2 years have been pretty good and that I am a good person. But, that is where my warm and fuzzy feelings stop. I proceeded to ask her about our M prior to the past 2 years. She instantly became very upset and defensive. She could not believe that I could not remember how bad it was. She went all the way back to account for some specific fights or things that I had done, that made her feel be-littled in the first two years of our marriage, some 13 & 14 years ago. She recalled these instances with great detail and anger. I was floored that she had such negative feelings for these events. One was about me throwing water on her during an argument, the other was a time when I pulled on her clothes and ripped her buttons during another argument and the 3rd was a time when she had washed my work clothes with a tube of her lipstick and I went off on her about it. To me these events are not ground shattering and would not make the news. I have brothers and sisters that have had more than one visit from the police to settle domestic disputes (hitting, throwing knives, pots and pans, type stuff) that they were having with their spouses. But, to her these events were the worst experiences of her life. They scarred her deeply and put a huge wedge in between us. They are causing her great resentment, mistrust and anger towards me.
I validated what she was saying and gave her a heartfelt apology and ask her that it would mean a lot to me and the future of our relationship, as fiends, if she could someday forgive me. She quickly said she does forgive me and she does not blame me for it anymore. But, I know that she is truly, truly deeply hurt and these events may be the key to what is causing her to push away from me. Whenever we get into an argument she starts to tell me how big of an ass I was to her and how badly I treated her. I on my part do not see it. I see arguments that we have had and hurtful things that I have said, but honestly and I mean this with all honesty, I have never treated her any worse then she has treated me, but me actions have affected her profusely, where as I am able to let her actions bounce off me for the most part. I have never hit her. I have never threatened to hit her. I never kicked her out of the house. I have never told her she could not go do what she wants to, like go out dancing with her girl friends (which I hate and it bothers me a lot). I am not saying that I have been a model husband, but I have been far from a terrible abusive one.

For the first time in 15 years I truly understand the pain I have caused my wife and I can see how it has affected our relationship. I am trying to understand how these acts have been so damaging to her and why they have the big impact that they do. But, more so I need to find a way to get her to truly forgive me for them and to release the anger and resentment that she holds towards me for them. Until we do this, I do not see how all the DBing in the world will turn our R around. In my eyes I see them as speed bumps, but to her they are mountains. I need to help us cross these mountains and I am seeking some insight and advice on how to proceed.

[Nugget]

Something I forgot to add When I asked her to forgive me and she said she does. I told her I don't feel that she has, because she always brings up how I was such an ass to her in ever argument we have. I told her to for me to feel like I have been forgiven then the event or events would not be thrown back at me at every whim or chance she had. I told her I know you are angry at me and you are harboring resentment towards me for the things I had done to you in the past. For me to feel forgiven I need to see that you do not harbor that anger and resentments. She responded "Yes I am angry and maybe I am resentful, let me be angry. People need to be angry." I told her she has all the right to be angry. She deserves to be angry at me, it is justified anger. But, I also told her that in order for us to have a caring relationship as friends (I am not pushing for a marriage relationship right now, I want to start over fresh as friends first and see where it leads from there) that with time, she will have to overcome the anger and resentment that she has towards me.

[Nugget]

Found a very helpful thread for me to understand resentment a little more. I have learned a lot today.
http://www.coping.org/anger/resent.htm

[Nugget]

I found a really interesting article on forgiveness. I was thinking about emailing it to my W with the following message "I am not trying to push anything onto you. I am not trying to to make you feel bad or trying to convince you of anything. I am just trying to be helpful in my own stupid way, so bare with me LOL

Please print out and read the attached PDF file when you feel like it. Please just read it for me when you get sometime." . Any thoughts.

Here is the article:

Why is forgiveness so important for our own wellbeing?
Submitted by Diana Robinson, Ph.D.

For many people forgiveness is one of the hardest steps of all in our progress toward freedom of our spirit. Yet it is essential. As long as we are unable to forgive, we keep ourselves chained to those we leave unforgiven. We give them rent-free space in our minds, emotional shackles on our hearts, and the right to torment us in the small hours of the night. Their action will continue to have power over us until we set ourselves free through the power of forgiveness.

Forgiveness.... is a way of releasing ourselves from the pain we have experienced at the hands of others...
What is forgiveness?

Forgiveness is a way of releasing ourselves from the pain we have experienced at the hands of others. It is a release from judgment, including our judgment of ourselves.
Forgiveness is not Condemnation.

Forgiveness does not mean you agree with what the other person did to you. It does not mean you can change what happened or erase what they did. What’s done is done. All you can do is release yourself.

Forgiveness is Not for Them, It’s for You. Forgiveness is not something you do for someone else, but to free YOURSELF from the continuation of pain and anger. It is a gift to your peace of mind, your self esteem, your relationships with others, your future.

Forgiveness is the act of releasing yourself from the consequences of your own false expectations....
Forgiveness is Freeing.

Forgiveness is the act of releasing yourself from the consequences of your own false expectations. The purpose of Forgiveness is to free yourself from the entanglements of the past, to reestablish control over your life by letting go of unpleasant events and people and reconnect with a healthy, positive direction. Holding on to anger and shame is unhealthy. Releasing it is freeing.

Forgiveness is in Our Control. Forgiveness cannot be forced or coerced; it can only be given freely. It is a power each of us has independently of others. It is a choice.

Forgiveness Releases US from Self Destruction. Anger hurts not only those it is directly at, but those who wield it as well. By not forgiving the person who wronged us, we continue to inflict on ourselves the pain they created.

Forgiveness Requires US to Give Up Suffering. Oscar Wilde said that suffering is a gift. It is also a need.

Forgiveness requires that we let go of our need to be pitied, our need to be right, and out need to feel an intense connection with our tormentor through anger.

Forgiveness Means Taking Responsibility for Choices.

Forgiveness is a choice that requires us to take responsibility for our actions and feelings. It requires us to be responsible to and for ourselves, even for our pain and humiliation. It means being responsible for the choices we make, including the choice of anger and the choice of Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is Powerful. Anger appears powerful, but leaves us feeling frustrated and powerless. Forgiveness, which appears weak, leaves us feeling stronger and less vulnerable to others.

Forgiveness is Easy. Most of us have not learned techniques to reach Forgiveness, but we know it begins with in the heart. All one needs to begin is to WANT to be released from the past. The other person need not be present, though it is better if they are. Forgiveness is seeing the other person and ourselves without judgment.

1. Understand that forgiving does not mean that you are agreeing that what was done was acceptable. It does not mean that you are giving permission for the behavior to be repeated.

2. Recognize who is being hurt by your non-forgiveness. Does the other person burn with your anger, do they feel the knot in your stomach, do they experience the cycling and recycling of your thoughts as you re-experience the events in your mind? Do they stay awake as you rehearse in your mind what you would like to say or do to 'punish' them? No, the pain is all yours. In fact they most likely do not even understand the severity that their actions may have had on you.

3. Do not require to know 'why' as a prerequisite to forgiveness. Knowing why the behavior happened is unlikely to lessen the pain, because the pain came at a time when you did not know why. Occasionally there are times when knowing why makes forgiveness unnecessary, but they are rare. Don't count on it and don't count on even the perpetrator who hurt you to know why.

4. Make a list of what you need to forgive. What was actually done that caused your pain? Not what you felt, but what was done.

5. Acknowledge your part in the event/s. Were you honest about your hurt or did you hide the fact that their behavior hurt you? Did you seek peace by reassuring the perpetrator that it was all right? Or did you push it deep down inside of yourself? Did you stay when you could or should have left? If so, then you, too, have part of the responsibility. Here is where you start to move away from being a victim.

6. Make a list of what you gained from the relationship, whatever form of relationship it was. Looking back you may be focusing on the negatives, the hurts. Yet if they were repeated, you must have stayed to allow the repetition. You did not remove yourself. Why? There must have been some positives if you chose to stay around. What were they?

7. Write a letter to the person (no need to mail it). Acknowledge what you gained from the relationship, and express forgiveness for the hurts. Allow yourself to express all your feelings fully. Do not focus only on the hurts.

8. Create a ceremony in which you get rid of your lists and the letter, so symbolizing the ending of the link between you. You may prefer to burn them and scatter the ashes. You may invent some other form of ritualized separation.

9. Visualize the person you are forgiving being set free by your forgiveness and, as a result, they are being freed from continuing the behavior that hurt you.

10. Now that you have freed yourself from the painful links and released the pain, feel yourself growing lighter and more joyous. Now you are free to move on with your life without that burden of bitterness. Do not look back in anger or resentment. Focus on the present and the future and leave the past where is belongs, behind you.

After Forgiveness comes reconciliation, the ability to be in the presence of the other person without feeling angry or vulnerable. It is the highest point of healing. Reconciliation may or may not take place following forgiveness, since it requires direct contact with the other person to eliminate old patterns and create a basis for healthy emotional interaction.

[JustDucky]

Great article..... but my feeling is that our WAS does not want us to help solve their problems, and therefore, this advice would only serve to tick them off.

My H was asked to leave our home because I was so tired of his anger. It seems like it is the same type that enveloped your WAW.... slow, simmering, on the back burner. THEY are the victims of not just US, but many people who cross their path. When they get hurt, they seem to create a special spot to catalog and store the pain that they felt. For some reason, sincere apologies mean nothing. For most of us (at least, most of the people that I know), yeah... we get hurt, there is an apology given, we accept it, forget the incident and move on. Not them.

So, it seems to me that we read the article ourselves, take it it heart, and forgive them for their current attitudes. And let it go.

We can't change our WAS. We can only change ourselves.

[DaveJ]

Here's something I have read which really goes against us males. When we are emotionally hurt, biologically only for women those painful emotions are stored in long term memory. For men, short term. That is the reason why when a man and a woman argue, the woman always brings up every single little event they were hurt by us man precisely and we man are flabbergasted on how in the world they come up with that. Men just forget and move on. Women remember. Some how if we can convince them to fight fair....

I'm just starting to deal with my WAW. And from my tiny little experience I have dealt with so far, it seems that if you are sincere and genuine about the changes you are making via action that helps. But, it seems to really help if you realize all the pain you have caused them and owns up to them on your own w/o her telling you and apologize sincerely. It really doesn't matter if they did the same things to you. If you want to save this marriage, you gotta be the bigger man so to speak and do the apologizing and suck it up. At least that got me to get my W going from absolutely wants a D and is absolutely done to she really wants the marriage to work and wants to put the effort in making it work. She told me she's being honest and genuine about that so I will take her word for it. Previously it didn't seem to matter how much effort I put into making things better. She even said she saw that I was doing everything I can to make this work but it may be too little too late. But this owning up and realizing what I've done seems to turn on the light for her and give her hope that I finally realize what I did. Of course, I still need to go through the separation and give her space and let her sort out things. But at least I've moved us off the edge of the cliff so to say a bit. Although it's probably different for each individual situation. Just thought I share what I've experienced...

[JustDucky]

Well, Dave, it is my WAH who catalogs and remembers every detail. He has what he calls "tickets", too. Tickets are the "good things" he does. And he thinks he can cash in his "tickets" when things go wrong, or he is the one who hurt someone. "Tickets" are also the "bad things" that people have done to him. So, he gets to keep, and use his "tickets" in any way that supports his ideas of right and wrong. Seems quite odd to me.

I have always taken the road that says that as humans, we are flawed. We will make mistakes. Ask for forgiveness, MEAN IT, and let it go. Why bother storing resentments? I know that God doesn't want us to do that. It is so counterproductive to a happy life.

[DaveJ]

JustDucky, I don't mean to put down all women. Just something I've read regarding human physiology and how that affects painful memories in one of the relationship books that looked interesting and may explain some things.

I totally agree with your perspective. People make mistakes and as long as they own up to it they should be forgiven. Too bad that your WAH is an account keeper. Holding grudges really suck!

Maybe I just have really bad memory and don't remember things. I swear my W always thinks I remember things wrong. A lot of the things she bring up I swear I have never said or done. Maybe I just choose not to remember them. I just don't recall ever saying things that awful or doing things like that. Of course things do get exaggerated in people's memory as time go on. And of course we do stupid things in blind anger too. Maybe just the difference where I choose to not hold onto them and she does.... I think it may also be because I am crazy in love with her and it makes it a lot easier to just forget that they hurt you versus where she says she's not IN love with me anymore and..... It sometimes seems that my W treats perfect strangers better than she treats me. She will usually think the worst of me rather than giving me the benefit of the doubt. Heck, she even dreams the worst of me when she dreams about me. It's kinda scary. :P Of course I may have driven her to that point as well.... I have done some really dumb things. I'm hoping that what I'm doing now can show her that I'm not the person she doesn't like anymore and she has enough patience to see it through....

I'm really hoping that she can work through the resentment. I just don't see how she will get her feelings back if she continues to resent me for everything.

Does anyone have positive experience with their WAS getting over the resentment thing?

[Nugget]

Dave and JustDucky I appreciate your opinions. I see things (whether it a male thing or not) like Dave. I do not recall exact moments when my wife has hurt me (ok there is one but it is only a little over a year old and it was pretty bad for me) but, I do recall her behavior, just not details. It may not be so much a male female thing as maybe just the individual person.

I did gain some insight today after talking to a few different people who have been helping me with my R. I will share them with you.

I grew up with 2 bothers and 3 sisters and it was very much the norm for us to rough house and torment each other. Especially to get our way or to get respect. I know how to hold someone until they cry uncle, if you know what I mean. So when I threw a glass of water on my wife instead of throwing a fist, as some people do. I see myself as having been in control over my anger, to some extent. Not saying that throwing the water is ok, but I see that it could have been a lot worse.

My wife on the other hand grew up with 3 old sisters and they (from what ne wife has told me) never fought. They had little disagreements, but never any physical interaction to speak of. I also believe that where as they were all girls, she does not understand the rough housing, boyish behavior that males have. So, the water being thrown at her and me grabbing her shirt to keep her from walking away were obviously very traumatic events and she may have never experienced that from someone who is supposed to love and protect you. Whereas for me it was just immature boyish behavior.

Hopefully now that she has been able to express and share with me these terrible events that I have caused her to suffer, she will be able to start on the path of forgiving me and accept my heartfelt forgiveness. I told her yesterday that I was truly, truly sorry and I had no idea that they had affected her so badly and that I was crushed to know that she had been holding them in for all these years. I plan on re-visiting this with her in the not too distant future when the time is right. I really want to try to show her how bad I feel about the whole situation and how terrible it must have been or is for her to hold all off those negative feelings and emotions inside and hopefully she will be able to relieve herself from the poison of those events and cleanse her soul and be free from them.

[DaveJ]

I grew up with 2 bothers and 3 sisters and it was very much the norm for us to rough house and torment each other. Especially to get our way or to get respect. I know how to hold someone until they cry uncle, if you know what I mean. So when I threw a glass of water on my wife instead of throwing a fist, as some people do. I see myself as having been in control over my anger, to some extent. Not saying that throwing the water is ok, but I see that it could have been a lot worse.

Well, my W grew up with 2 elder brothers that beat up on her all her life and that's still a no no. I learned it the hard way. I have never hit her or throw things on or at her or anything like that. Just couple times trying to prevent her from leaving. She still has not forgiven me for doing that to this day and it's been 5+ years. And of course anything she has done such as elbowing me in the chest or pushing me from leaving doesn't count at all. Those are considered "self defence". Not fair but oh well... I guess it's just about self control. In their mind if you lay hands on them it is very traumatic no matter what. They'll think, what will he do next? Hit me? Hit the kids? My W literally told me she was scared of me. I was shocked. I never have hit her and never will. Heck, I've never even resorted to name calling or swearing at her. Unless if you call telling her she is being mean to me (which she was being extremely vicious during the verbal fight) and calling her being a little person for holding grudges (which really set her off) as being name calling and abusive.... Sometimes you wish you can get an apology from the for the things they have done. You may or may not get it. But we have to be the bigger person and suck it up and own up to our faults and let go of what they have done wrong to us. Otherwise it'll just make us unhappy.

Really if you feel that much anger that you want to throw a glass of water on her, it's time to walk away and cool down. It's one thing if you guys are just playing around in a fun sort of way, it's another when you do it when fighting. That would pissed the heck out of me too. Not the fact that it's physical violence, but it's insulting and humiliating to have that done to you. Just tell her that you will discuss it with her when you have calmed down. I know it is sometimes hard because they know exactly which button to push to get you all worked up. I know my W does that sometimes and oh it makes me mad. They sure know how to get you where it hurts. Just tell yourself that in the end, you love her and she loves you, and she doesn't really mean it, she is just angry, and walk away. At least that's what I'm trying to work on. It can be pretty hard sometimes.

Good luck lovncela! I really hope your W sees that you are genuine and be forgiving and lets go.... I'm hoping the same for my W.