A willing spouse is NOT the saem as a desirous spouse, not even close. I like to think of it in terms of something my wife LOVES to do and that is shop. I go shopping with her because I am willing to shop. After doing this for many times, she would prefer NOT to shop with me, it's just not fun. So she now basically shops with her girlfriends. She has found a DESIROUS partner for shopping, and it results in a much more shopping happiness. Apply that to sex, she is WILLING to have sex, but so are hookers. There is no real connection going on, I am a "CHORE" not something she REALLY wants to be doing. I don't care what the activity is, if the person you are with even HINTS that it is not what they really want to do, it spoils EVERTHING about that activity.
I love to shop too, and cac does not. Well, I guess it depends on what we're shopping for. I learned a long time ago not to have him come along to the mall because it is clear that he is bored, impatient and unhappy being there, and knowing that made it nearly impossible for me to enjoy shopping with him. In fact, I am usually unable to enjoy myself in any activity with cac if he is bored or annoyed. This is true for him too, at least some of the time.
My primary LL is QT. cac struggles with QT, especially the kind of QT I like best, which is TALKING. I love to talk about my feelings, his feelings, our R, our family, our future, our dreams, etc. He really doesn't like to do this, especially talking about feelings. He dislikes this when I initiate it, which almost all of the time. It is extremely unusual for him to initiate this type of talk with me.
My other LL, WOA, is another tough one for him. Doesn't come naturally at all, maybe with the exception of compliments about my physical appearance. My brand of WOA revolves around acknowledgement, appreciation, and recognition for things I do (which I guess explains why I'm looking for him to acknowledge my efforts at saving money by not spending it on myself--as I posted in Hairdog's thread).
When I look through the 5LL book at the suggestions at the end of the WOA and QT chapters--suggestions that cac might try so that I feel loved--well, they mostly read like a pipe dream. I honestly can't imagine him doing most of them at all, never mind, enthusiastically or without prompting from me. Yep, he isn't typically enthusiastic about these things. And as you said, Cemar, there is no real connection going on, I am a "CHORE" not something [he] REALLY wants to be doing. Feeling that way sucks, doesn't it?
I know cac isn't the only one out there who struggles with his spouse's (non-PT) LL. For example, GGB wrote recently that when he tries to love MrsGGB in her LL, it doesn't typically work, AND, he's not very good at it.
Then I remember what NOP wrote a few months ago. Loosely summarizing, he said that sex/PT is different than the other LLs because it's the only one you can't get from anyone other than your spouse. Does this mean that PT is more important than the others? And if it is....then is it possible that one whose LL is PT might NOT take their spouse's non-PT LL as seriously as their own?
Is it reasonable for me to expect cac to enthusiastically do activities in my LL? I know that he expects (or wants) me to enthusiastically ML with him.
Should I expect him to initiate those QT/WOA activities or should I just be happy (settle) for him willingly doing them, even if I know he doesn't truly want to do them? He didn't like it when I willingly go along with sex. He prefers that I desire it.
What if he finds it too uncomfortable to participate in these activities? Should he try to confront his feelings about it?
And, do HD people typically consider PT their LL? Is that why they're HD?
One thing about the concept of LL is that so much of the idea seems to be focused on speaking others LL or asking other to speak in another LL. One thing you also have to do in my mind is try to listen to the LL that your other is speaking and be appreciative and grateful for what they do speak.
Then I remember what NOP wrote a few months ago. Loosely summarizing, he said that sex/PT is different than the other LLs because it's the only one you can't get from anyone other than your spouse.
And I disagreed with that viewpoint because LL are about how SPOUSES show their love for each other. As I said my LL are QT and PT. When my XH was not giving me QT, it did not matter that I had plenty of friends and family willing to give me QT. Their QT did not demonstrate that my HUSBAND loved me. In fact having friends WANT to spend time with me made it more painfully clear that my husband was not spending time with me. Whether or not you can get PT from someone else or not is not relevant to the LL discussion IMHO. After all even if your wife or Husband was okay with you having sex with someone else, would it make you feel more LOVED by your spouse if THEY didn't have sex with you????
Does this mean that PT is more important than the others? And if it is....then is it possible that one whose LL is PT might NOT take their spouse's non-PT LL as seriously as their own?
Elevating a LL seems like a sure-fire way to build resentment. I do think it is possible that some people believe their LL is more important whether that LL is PT or not.
Is it reasonable for me to expect cac to enthusiastically do activities in my LL?
My opinion is that I don't care so much about the enthusiasm or performance because the effort itself shows how much they care and are trying. of course I don't want grunts and condescending remarks like "There. Are you happy now?" But a shaky awkward but heartfelt try is worth a lot in my book. But that's me.
And who knows after awhile once they get used to it and both of you are more open to meet each other's LL, I would guess both of you would feel more comfortable talking in the other's LL.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Are there 5LL? More like 10~20 in reality. Then factor in one love buster can wipe out 5~20 good LL activities.
Back to Mrs.Cac’s question. Should I expect him to initiate those QT/WOA activities or should I just be happy (settle) for him willingly doing them, even if I know he doesn't truly want to do them? He didn't like it when I willingly go along with sex. He prefers that I desire it. Most of the time be happy he does them with you. Some QT you can get/have with a friend. Same with shopping.
For me sex was better for me when BB had fun too. Is it ever exciting or fun for you? If so explain to Cac when it is and ask him to do the things more when it is more fun/pleasurable.
The whole feed-back chain needs to be improved. It can work with QT. Don’t expect Cac to figure out what you like about QT, after you feel some good QT has happened, tell Cac which times/parts of the QT meant the most to you. He can pick out the elements of the QT that he can do more readily and increase their frequency w/o acting as much. That way his unconfortableness will be lessened. Don’t do the feed-back all of the time, but do give some hints.
Really? For me Chapman's groups kind of covered it all. What other one's do you suggest?
Some QT you can get/have with a friend.
As in the post above, I don't understand how you can get a SPOUSAL LL from anyone but your spouse.
The LL concept is about how to express and receive love from your SPOUSE.
While the LL idea is VERY simplistic and on it's own probably not enough to change things unless your marriage was already good, I still found it to be a useful concept. Ideally it's a way for both partners to learn how to "speak" and "listen" to each other.
If your spouse's LL is AOS and your LL is QT, you might be misinterpreting each other. if you read the LL book, you might understand that your H changing the oil in your car IS his way of expressing love rather than just feeling resentful that he "chose" to do that rather than spend time with you. However if you learn the LL, maybe the H and W could change the oil together!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
My LL's are QT and PT too. And Fearless is right although I can get plenty of QT from friends and family not getting it from my H sucks. Not getting either from him sucked even worse.
Quote:
I love to shop too, and cac does not. Well, I guess it depends on what we're shopping for. I learned a long time ago not to have him come along to the mall because it is clear that he is bored, impatient and unhappy being there, and knowing that made it nearly impossible for me to enjoy shopping with him. In fact, I am usually unable to enjoy myself in any activity with cac if he is bored or annoyed. This is true for him too, at least some of the time.
My primary LL is QT. cac struggles with QT, especially the kind of QT I like best, which is TALKING. I love to talk about my feelings, his feelings, our R, our family, our future, our dreams, etc. He really doesn't like to do this, especially talking about feelings. He dislikes this when I initiate it, which almost all of the time. It is extremely unusual for him to initiate this type of talk with me.
I can really relate to this. Like you Mrs Cac I found reading the QT chapter in 5LL's a pipe dream. In fact I cried when I read it because it made me realise just how strongly I miss that from my H.
I am pretty sure that being HD does mean your LL is PT. I think Cemar's problem may be that that is his only LL, most of us have a couple at least.
If sex is important to cac and you have gone to the trouble of understanding that and trying to step up to the plate then cac needs to do the same for you in regard to QT. Speaking as a high-drive QT person as well as a high-drive PT person I can definitely say BOTH are equally important and it hurts just as bad not getting QT as it does not getting PT. Cac may well find out that that way to get you more desirous of him is to spend more time doing QT activities with you.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
My opinion is that I don't care so much about the enthusiasm or performance because the effort itself shows how much they care and are trying. of course I don't want grunts and condescending remarks like "There. Are you happy now?" But a shaky awkward but heartfelt try is worth a lot in my book. But that's me.
I wonder if any of the HD men here on the board be satisfied with a "shaky awkward but heartfelt try" from their wives in bed? Would they be able to tell that their wives were "trying" to speak their LL or would they just think it was mercy sex? Would they be offended that the wife had to "try" in the first place?
And who knows after awhile once they get used to it and both of you are more open to meet each other's LL, I would guess both of you would feel more comfortable talking in the other's LL.
I'm not so sure about that. First, both parties need to be willing. We read here that many of the posters' spouses aren't willing for various reasons. We also read about LDW who are willing, but it's not enough because they don't desire it for themselves. How can they progress from willing to comfortable to desiring if willing is unacceptable?
You know, I'd be thrilled if cac was WILLING to talk to me about feelings. I'm not really expecting him to come home and say "oh, honey, I've thought about nothing else all day than coming home and talking to you." Of course he isn't going to say that. And I'm not offended that he doesn't feel that way. I'd be very happy with a shaky awkward but heartfelt try, believe me.
So, what is it about sex? Why does it carry so much more weight than the other LLs? It's not about the physical release, I know I've read many posts here that say that. It's about the emotional connection, right?
That's what QT is about for me. I feel emotionally connected when cac and I talk. I feel emotionally connected when he validates me by spending time with me or acknowledging me or my talents or efforts. Just as I validate him when I ML with him.
So why is it so offensive for a spouse to be only willing to make an effort to have sex, but not seemingly offensive for a spouse to be only willing to make an effort to talk or be complimentary or otherwise validating?
If sex is important to cac and you have gone to the trouble of understanding that and trying to step up to the plate then cac needs to do the same for you in regard to QT. Speaking as a high-drive QT person as well as a high-drive PT person I can definitely say BOTH are equally important and it hurts just as bad not getting QT as it does not getting PT.
Agreed. It does hurt. And it makes me resentful. And feeling resentful is a sure-fire way to send my desire for sex into a tailspin. I think I can truthfully say that cac DOESN'T GET IT. Just like I didn't get it. He doesn't hear me just like I didn't hear him.
It's interesting that you used the words "gone to the trouble." "Gone to the trouble," and "taken the effort" are not words that go over well with some HD folks.
So I ask again, why? Why is making an effort to have a better sex life a bad thing? Why does it seem that if it isn't effortless it's second-rate?
Cac may well find out that that way to get you more desirous of him is to spend more time doing QT activities with you.
I know this to be true. I actually feel horny after an argument, which is essentially our version of talking about feelings. I have told him this in plain English, but I don't think he believes me. Or he doesn't hear it.
I think there are two sides to this validation question of yours. One side is that CAC does need to learn your language and do his part in validating you as you would like. The other part is for you to learn why you need QT as your LL (yep, it's a FOO issue). Your task is to find a way to accept another LL in addition to QT, one that CAC is more willing to give. If he has to make all the LL accommodations and shift his LL to yours, then the tables might swing around and he could become resentful while you are happy. That's not good either. Find an equitable compromise you can both live with.
So I ask again, why? Why is making an effort to have a better sex life a bad thing? Why does it seem that if it isn't effortless it's second-rate?
I don't see anything wrong with this, but there could be problems in how it is communicated. If you are willing to make an effort but have not yet come to the point of being desirous, he might feel like he is being desirous but you are merely holding back. Furthermore, he might he is making himself vulnerable by showing his desire, but you are still hiding behind your walls and using the excuse that you are willing to try but you just aren't there yet. My question would be when are you going to get there, if ever?
I think the way to counter this to to make yourself equally vulnerable (which makes it seem fair the the man) by explaining your fears and why you are holding back, and what steps you have taken that he may not be able to see. At least he will know you are slowing moving forward and not slowly moving backward. I think that not allowing yourself to be vulnerable could be trigger CAC's abandonment issues (just a guess).
Before everyone jumps in and says that is his problem, let me say I agree. But that does not change the damaging impact his fears have on the marriage. So give a little enmeshing affirmation to him. Allow him to slowly work on his abandonment and enmeshment issues as you are slowly working on your vulnerability. That would seem a fair compromise, ya think?
It's interesting that you used the words "gone to the trouble." "Gone to the trouble," and "taken the effort" are not words that go over well with some HD folks.
So I ask again, why? Why is making an effort to have a better sex life a bad thing? Why does it seem that if it isn't effortless it's second-rate?
That's a good question. Sex is kind of like dancing and conversation. If you're trying too hard, you're doing it badly. If you're relaxed and happy and not really thinking about each step, you're probably doing it well.
Now is trying too hard worse than not doing it at all? Having been on the receiving end of both, my answer is "it depends". On what? Let me get back to you on that. Obviously resentment is a mood-killer, as is any hint of "please tell me I was good!" But there's more to it than that.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
