Always ends with me saying something like, "we've *at least* got to be able to *talk* about it...".
Well since it always ends that way, obviously its not a working solution. She does NOT have to be able to talk about it. She can choose to not talk about it. She does choose to not talk about it. So. Where does that leave you? You can't make her.... anything. You *shouldn't* let her put that burden on you. You can only choose what is acceptable to you.
Do you really want her words, or do you want her actions? Personally, most of the time, I am thinking 'close you mouth and show me.'
Well I'm certainly NOT allowed to initiate it right now, so who the hell else is going to do it? The postman? The elderly couple next door? Our cat?
Does the postman always ring twice? LOL. I'm not laughing at your frustration. But I am glad you are funny when you are frustrated.
How are you NOT allowed to initiate? NoOne prevents me from initiating. They can turn me down, they can ignore me, they can play hard to get, they can defer, they can laugh at me, they can try to ridicule me, they can try to preemptively block (which just means they are already thinking/fantasizing/planning about it), but NoOne can stop you from initiating.
I don't understand what you mean you are not allowed to initiate. Is she going to leave if you initiate. Fine. Is she going to file if you initiate? Fine. At least you will know, she doesn't want a R with you. I do understand anger/hurt from rejection.
No, I didn't say anything because I'd only have a gotten a blank response. What is a blank response? Ignoring you? Do you normally go away when she ignores you? Animal trainers call that LRS. Are you well trained?
Yep. And no deal. What do you mean no deal? boundaries are not subject to deals. What are your boundaries? In your letter did you just put out a list of wants, or did you state boundaries. x cheated on me. x wanted a divorce. we were separated. I didn't want the M to end, yet I REQUIRED, no ifs, ands or buts, her agreeing to counseling, prior to her moving back in with me. Seems slightly counter productive. It's not.
Got delayed. My mistake. It was my boundary, unenforced for 4 months. Not much of a boundary eh?
Some things to think about. Why do you think if the R doesn't work out YOU have to leave, and/or go live with you parents? Right now it seems as if you think the only way to implement a boundary is to leave. Its not. You have other options. Your abrogating yourself. I don't know much, but I know enough about UK divorce law to know that. Its still coming back to you valuing yourself. That is really where you can focus the majority of your attention and energies. Do what it takes to improve your self worth. Not your entitlement. They are different.
It's nothing at all to do with me, and she also denies ordering it. However, I have caught her flicking through it a couple times and when she sees that I've noticed her, or when I playfully ask her if she's seen anything in there that she's like, she'll feign disgust at some of the stuff in there and put the catalogue away. Like she's putting on some kind of 'innocent/prude' act for me to see.
Yeah. Some serious contradictions going on there. You ever wonder why women pretend to be innocent, heck they even tell you 'I never think about OM/cheating/wanting someone else' and then get angry when you trust them?
I wonder about it. Then I use my curiosity and check to see if its real. Actually nowadays, I just yank em right the Fcck out of their 'innocence' game. They surrender, and we are both satisfied. I'm trying to remember an example..... the first one that comes to mind was in an elevator in a casino in Palm Springs... pffffff ......with x...relevance...
[jeopardy music]
My situation with x did not turn around until I held her responsible for her actions every time she tried to pawn them off on some excuse, and also let her know without a shadow of a doubt that I saw her clearly for what she was. Who she was... same difference...Trying to remember.
Ahh. She thought I never noticed what was going on with her and OM. I saw it waaayyyy before she ever realized it. We had an argument in which she impinged on my awareness, and I lost control of my op sec. [headshake] I have a strict rule about requiring mind reading in a R. I wont do it. I tell em up front repeatedly. I'm not a woman. If its not verbally communicated its not real. (I broke my rule when I went about the reconcil.)
Her mistake, thinking I wasn't to begin with, (of all people she should have known better, who knows maybe she did...) and then accusing me of it. I recounted every instance... going back to the first one. (You could call that spanking the monkey, but it was more along the lines of hammering) Added some descriptive names that I probably didn't need to, about who was really unaware, and what their actions make them. *blush*
The look on her face when she knew she was known and understood, though. *shock* *grief* *rage* at which point bf exited stage right.--------->
There was some probably justifiable anger. And more that wasn't. Own what is yours, and not one gram more.
Things changed pretty dramatically after that.
Your W has kids, and had an affair, there is nothing 'innocent' about her. Its up to you how you want to handle the BS she shovels at you. Lovingly detached is the best way. The sooner you do it, the better chance you have at being lovingly detached. The longer you wait, the more likely you are to pop and do something self destructive.
Who do you think the act is for? What benefit does the act give to the actor?
On another note, Maybe some of the women will confirm or deny, but my general impression from my experiences and readings is that women find men who MB to be pathetic/sad/not masculine. OTOH, women whose H have affairs don't think of their H's as being pathetic and un masculine. A laundry list of other names comes to mind, but not those.
This is not encouragement to have an affair, nor is it suggesting you don't MB. Just something to think about.
I posted this link before; I think #6 applies to you. Post
At this point, there is a fine line between requiring respect and stomping your foot and hurting the OP with your entitlement.
Be a real man, not a pr!ck. (Ive already filled the position, we seem to have an excess currently)
L.R.S AC=No, I didn't say anything because I'd only have a gotten a blank response. BF=What is a blank response? Ignoring you? Do you normally go away when she ignores you? Animal trainers call that LRS. Are you well trained?
I followed the students to SeaWorld San Diego, where a dolphin trainer introduced me to least reinforcing syndrome (L. R. S.). When a dolphin does something wrong, the trainer doesn't respond in any way. He stands still for a few beats, careful not to look at the dolphin, and then returns to work. The idea is that any response, positive or negative, fuels a behavior. If a behavior provokes no response, it typically dies away. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/25love.html?ex=1190260800&en=916d8642392d40c7&ei=5070 p. 2
Some quick responses.... not got too much time right now.
Originally Posted By: blackfoot
How are you NOT allowed to initiate?
Ha. Dryness doesn't come across well on a forum, eh? 'Course I'm *allowed* to initiate - just that right now, it doesn't get me very far. Or maybe I'm just not doing it right? Who knows?
Originally Posted By: blackfoot
Animal trainers call that LRS. Are you well trained?
Jeez, you're right. Heh. She's *training* me without me even knowing it. Do I normally just go away? Yep, guess I do eventually. I'm not into begging or pleading. And I'm not going to force the issue. So what else can I do?
Now I *really* feel for those dolphins.
Originally Posted By: blackfoot
What do you mean no deal?
I mean she's dead against counseling - doesn't believe in it. She wouldn't come with me last year, so I went by myself and got as much out of it as I could, which wasn't much to be honest. My dad's actually a trained counsellor and from what he's told me, I'm actually quite sceptical about the whole thing. Basically, what I'm saying is that counseling just isn't for everyone - me included.
Plus I'm also not 100% sure that I want this to work out right now either, and until I am sure, I'm not going to lay down those kind of boundaries.
Originally Posted By: blackfoot
Why do you think if the R doesn't work out YOU have to leave, and/or go live with you parents?
Simple. Because the place we're living in is in HER name only. It's rented, not owned. I'd have absolutely zero say in who stays and who goes if it came to that. I wouldn't be able to live here by myself - UK divorce laws (or any laws for that matter) don't even come into it.
I'm actually in a better place - headwise - than I'm probably portraying myself here. If the R ended tomorrow, I know I'd be fine, whether I move in with my folks or not (they're a bit of a drive from the beach, though, so that's a big negative!! Heh).
I'd like it to work because I do love my W and I do want my family to stay together. I'd also like things to work, simply because the practical/logistical side of splitting up just seems like a fricking nightmare - especially with kids involved.
So, like I said, if it ended tomorrow I'd be sad and all that, but all the thinking I've done over the last 12 months has opened my eyes to a whole bunch of positives, too.
So in terms of the 'power' my wife has over me (your #6), I actually don't think she does. True, she currently holds the power when it comes to sex, and whilst it is important to me, it's really just a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. The real power sits with me - it's me who's making the choice to stay right now. It's NOT her 'allowing' me to stay. However, should things tip too far the wrong way, I'll make the choice to go, too.
And there's nothing she'll be able to do about it.
I fully know that eventually, if things continue, I'm going to run out of ideas, energy and desire for my wife, so I guess I'm posting here on this forum because I want to be reassured that I've done everything I can first - should I ever need to make that decision.
**ILLNESS ALERT**ILLNESS ALERT**ILLNESS ALERT** Incidentally, she's just been signed off work all week because of a trapped nerve in her neck/shoulder. I appreciate that it's super painful, but she strangely doesn't seem to mind that the pain can last for weeks/months/years, etc, etc. I guess she knows that it's given her another pretty good long-term excuse for avoiding the erm... 'subject'.
Right now it seems as if you think the only way to implement a boundary is to leave.
OK, I've still got issues with this.
My (theoretical) boundary is that I won't live in a completely sexless marriage. What else can I do except for leave the marriage if that boundary is repeatedly crossed?
Do I normally just go away? Yep, guess I do eventually. I'm not into begging or pleading. And I'm not going to force the issue. So what else can I do?
There is a great big area inbetween begging and pleading and forcing the issue. It is not easy to comprehend, but that doesnt change the fact that there are many other options. You cant force the issue, she has options to protect herself from you 'forcing' the issue. So stop worrying about forcing the issue. But you didnt say, Im worried about forcing the issue, you said, I wont force the issue. Are you saying your boundaries are not important to you?
Do you remember my example about drinking? I dont 'force' them to stop. I dont think I can. I give them a choice. They choose.
1. Determine how important it is to you. 2. Dont go away. 3. Dont be trained. Its not respectable.(I can not be trained. I will NOT be controlled that way. I can be asked to give what they would like to receive. I very probably will. When I can.) In this case that means not going away when she ignores you.
When your W ignores you and you go away, beyond the fact that she is training you and she loses respect, it is a form of mind reading. I detest required mind reading. It places all the onus for the effort on the mind reader. There is no effort put in by the thought sender. Its exceptionally selfish. There is NO Relationship equivalency in expecting mind reading. It assumes the OP thinks like you, feels like you, reacts like you, has as much info/knowlege/experience as you. Boy it really gets me riled up.
Here is another idea on what to do with mind reading.
Quote:
Mind reading - Even if we have a pretty good idea of what the upset person is trying to say, don’t say it for them. Use your best active listening skills to bring out the unexpressed feelings of the upset person.
For as much as they love to talk, women sure dont like to talk about what they really feel or mean. I repeatedly see them make statements to the effect that they are 'empathetic', yet when I watch them communicate, gather like chickens and cluck, (which is bi or tri weekly that I see a bunch of em IRL) all I see is commiserating and sympathizing. More then likely she needs that on some level from her gf's. It kinda funny to observe actually. Unless you want to be one of her gf's ---Don't do it. Not your job. Your job is to empathize, then use it so you can determine what is best for your R. No where did I say, what she will like or enjoy.
I mean she's dead against counseling - doesn't believe in it. She wouldn't come with me last year, so I went by myself and got as much out of it as I could, which wasn't much to be honest. My dad's actually a trained counsellor and from what he's told me, I'm actually quite sceptical about the whole thing. Basically, what I'm saying is that counseling just isn't for everyone - me included.
I understand the latter part of this. If a counselor tries to dig into my FOO, Im going to cheerfully tell them with a sneer. If they try to be subtle, Im going to look at them like an anaconda looks at a capybara. x appeared to be dead against counseling also, according to her words. She certainly didnt put any effort into scheduling etc. That would have meant we remained seperated. Her choice, my choice. It was my boundary. When she walked out the second time, she threw the fact that we hadnt gone the day before as scheduled (her bday. Touche x. ) I was untrustworthy. Truth hurts.
I wanted to go to counseling, because I needed support processing. I was really really angry, and I know what I do when I am really angry. It practically never happens, but when it does, I disassemble the OP. Its not very pratical to do that to your SO, your other half, the person you care for. You just disassemble yourself, in the process. The other reason, is because my frame control is overly developed. I needed third party input. Somewhere, if my w cheated on me, I went wrong. some of the ladies here have mentioned being pysch damaged by someone who is to top. x never complained about that, (in fact I know that It was because I was placating) but she did of course complain about losing herself. She made remark one time right before we got back together about 'Now I have the power'. which suprised me momemtarily. *blink* [hmm what has she been reading now] She always had, what she had. The only power she didnt have was what she gave away, or didnt want. I just looked at her and replied, 'Yeah. and look what you have done to the R, since you had it. Nice going.'
If you dont need marital help. Dont go. If you want M counseling to fix her, dont bother. She allready thinks (for whatever reason) you dont care about her. Why would she want to go to M counseling?
Plus I'm also not 100% sure that I want this to work out right now either, and until I am sure, I'm not going to lay down those kind of boundaries.
Well that says everything. and more. Without boundaries, your W will not be attracted to you. Your emasculating yourself. Just so you know.
So, like I said, if it ended tomorrow I'd be sad and all that, but all the thinking I've done over the last 12 months has opened my eyes to a whole bunch of positives, too. That voice whispering is called resentment. Its not a bad thing to hear, you need to pay more attention to your feelings, its not good to have negative emotions control you either.
so I guess I'm posting here on this forum because I want to be reassured that I've done everything I can first
At the moment you are doing what I refer to as 'doing nothing'. Thats a really BAD plan of action when it comes to dealing with females. So if you want to know if your next R will work better long term then this one, I suggest you learn how to implement boundaries, and see that there are many other options besides the two very weak options of begging, or self defensively locking OP out.
My (theoretical) boundary is that I won't live in a completely sexless marriage. What else can I do except for leave the marriage if that boundary is repeatedly crossed?
Am I genuinely missing something here?
Boundaries are not theoretical. Currently yours have been pretty non existant. Boundaries dont get repeatedly crossed, or they are by definition not a boundary. They are swiss cheese.
Lets try it like this. You dont have to state a boudary like this.... If you do FITB, I will do FITB. Thats an adversarial way to do it. You can just state your boundary.
ex. Im talking to you. Dont ignore me. We are going to talk about this. This is not going away. Ignoring me is not going to work. You can leave if you want, but Im not going to stop bringing this up untill you tell me what is going on. Your W is not likely going to get real and honest with you untill you piss her off. Counselorize speak is great for remainging detached. It doesnt work so good for creating EC. There is a reason they use it, and its not so they can be emotionally involved with you.
Boundaries are practically NEVER instantly acknowledged. Unless they have previous authority and precedence. You have to fight for them. OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again.
AC, I think you dont want to assert yourself, because you dont like how it feels. That is your choice of course. Hate to break it to you, but women do like how it feels when you assert yourself. The longer the R, the more assertiveness they want to feel. Heck I assert myself in the first 2 minutes. Depending on how you look at it, Im getting great results. Everytime I held to my boundaries in my M, things went great. The time I completely dropped ALL of my boundaries or didnt hold them fast, things went to crap.
And there's nothing she'll be able to do about it. I dont doubt that, but revenge only hurts you in the long run. At any rate she wont do anything. She isnt going to care if a man who doenst care enough about her- to fight with her- for her, isnt in her life. She'd much rather surrender in her fantasy world, to someone else. At least thats what the D women I date, tell me repeatedly. Their actions say the same, so... I believe em.
Its still coming back to you valuing yourself. That is really where you can focus the majority of your attention and energies. Do what it takes to improve your self worth. If you D your self worth will not go up. If you find a new girl you probably will feel good (infatuation has a purpose), but your self worth will not go up. You still wont have learned to implement boundaries and assert yourself.
Funnily enough I don't come here quite so often but I had been wondering how things were going for you ...great minds think alike blackfoot.
Oh and by the way....I think at some point I told you to buy her a vibrator... the sex toy catalogue would have been a good way to open this up as an option. Maybe get her one for xmas with some lubricant.
Truth hurts. 