An update...

[AmbientCoast]

If I say to you, a woman wants to surrender, does that make sense to you? Do you know what it looks like? She cant surrender if you rescue her.

OK, I'm getting there.

You felt good rejecting her, thats understandable, but you have a real chance right now, to stop the withdrawal dance.

It felt good at the time, but I didn't particularly like the fact that it felt good.

I hope you choose to get that under control. You dont have to 'be in there like a shot' you can remain where you are, and offer to her the opportunity to come and snuggle up for warmth. If you can warmly and gently or even playfully, get her to admit thats what she wants, even better.

Yep, I understand.

Many of her actions are showing that she is interested in getting things back on track. Again if you can have conversations where she admits this, so much the better.

Understand this, too.

Ok. This is your screw up. Here is why. I always monitor and control my womans alcohol intake. Usually its unnoticeable. Although I have done it blatantly obvious also, making them choose, me or more alcohol. Really effective. anyways.

Letting her get blitzed is NOT caring for her or cherishing her or protecting. That is why you do it.

Nah, no screw up. This was us having a big night out with no babysitter to get back for, etc, etc, etc. I'm guessing that the drinking thing is a funny one to discuss here because of the UK/US culture clash when it comes to this kind of stuff. Over here, getting tanked once in a while doesn't have the same kind of connotations. Anyhoo, looking back, there were more positives about the night than negatives. Definitely.

Her actions show that this is not what she is thinking. Stop assuming the negative. Even if it were, its counterproductive.

Yep, gotcha.

I want to bonk you on the head when I see that kind of talk.

The problem is, you arent being selfish enough.You are correct -you cannot force her to desire something she doesnt want. So you have nothing to worry about. If she goes along with it, you havent forced her.

So since you cant force her, offer it too her...that doesnt mean give it to her.... offer it too her and then be still and see what happens.
If she didnt want to move outside of her comfort levels, with you, she wouldnt be there. If she doesnt want to she WILL leave. Are you afraid of her leaving, or are you afraid of her not wanting you. I think its the second. Whichever it is, your hesitancy and inaction look the same to her, for whatever reason it is.

Your self doubts are in your way. Not your wife.

All makes sense.

What am I afraid of? Her leaving? Nope - that's happened before and I've survived. Her not wanting me? Nope - I've lived with that thought for the last 2 or 3 years and I've survived. I'm wary of what this will do to the kids and on top of that, I really DON'T want to be a part-time dad which will be inevitable. I'm also wary that my financial state will mean I'd have to move back in with my parents for a while. Not cool.

I'm certainly not afraid of being without her, or without her love - I'm just not in a particularly great financial position at the moment, and there are a bunch of other consequences that this would be thrown up if we split.

I'd like to have all my ducks in a row, as it were, before I stirred things up.

Tell me about her comfort levels and how you react to them.

Well, what normally sends her screaming out of her comfort zone is me initiating any real conversation about sex when we're alone. Then she'll immediately change the subject, or literally clam up if I try to push for talk. Physically, we'll both hold hands when we're out, I can give her a long foot rub at night, I can grab her for a kiss or a hug, I can spoon in bed, I can come up behind her when she's in the kitchen, and grab her breasts from behind. In fact, I did this last night while she was cooking, for example, and she said she liked it, and then *jokingly* said "but not as much as..." (and I forget what she said at the end there, but it wasn't sexual). But if I try to progress any physical contact towards true intimate contact, she'll find that uncomfortable and she'll put a stop to it with some crap excuse.

But, like I said, she'll kind of admit that she likes the touching. I'm not saying that this is all down to stubbornness on her behalf (even though she is one of the most stubborn people I've ever met) but it's almost like we're 99% there, but she doesn't want to be the one to give in because she'll feel like I've 'won'. Or something. Does that make sense?

As for my reactions, I used to stomp around and sulk a little (a lot?) but learned that it didn't get me anywhere. Now, most of the time, I [make her believe that I] take it in my stride and I brush it off and tell her something like "hey, it's your loss" - but in a positive/jokey way.

Eight hours. wow. whats the water temp there?

Damned cold - 6mm wetties all the way. That was a very rare summer swell, so I think I had my 4mm on that day.

When are you going to Uruguay? A bike ride? Thats sounds awesome. Im intrigued.
I have two major dreams left to accomplish. go diving in antartica before I am 40, and drive a MC from here to Chile. No hurry on that one.

The Uruguay thing is just something random that I was talking about to a mate - and for some reason it just stuck. I'm a writer by trade and a keen traveler, and have found that there's just not much travel literature about Uruguay. I'm looking for kit sponsors and a publisher right now, but basically, I'm planning to cycle the entire coast of Uruguay next year and get an off-beat travel book on the shelves.

We'll see...

[blackfoot]

Your a writer.
I hope you like to read. I hate(d) writing. Im serious. Hated english class. blech. I allready know how to speakazy englash. I know how to spell too. really. Just cant think/type/spell at the same time. hehe. at least not this slow, maybe if I went faster ...

Nah, no screw up. This was us having a big night out with no babysitter to get back for, etc, etc, etc. I'm guessing that the drinking thing is a funny one to discuss here because of the UK/US culture clash when it comes to this kind of stuff. Over here, getting tanked once in a while doesn't have the same kind of connotations. Anyhoo, looking back, there were more positives about the night than negatives.

You and I are not going to have that culture clash. So since its you and I chatting, dont worry about the Puritans. You kicked their intolerant azzes out of there, cause they couldnt play well with others.
As for those dealing with real addiction issues, I will preemptively aplogize for our insensitivity to their hardship and suggest they dont read this.

In my LTR's, I have no problem occasionally letting/dealing or even getting her bent, (spanking the impertinant monkey.) holding her hair back (cuddling the bunny) while she prays to the porcelain god, and putting her in a cold shower with all her clothes on to sleep it off. Ok I dont really leave her in there, with the water on, or her clothes, lol, but its good to be reminded why over indulgence sucks and impertinace has consequences. Makes for good memories and stories too. haha.


What I meant by screwing up was in regards to leaving the evening open to having sex. The night wasnt a mistake, but it eliminated the possibility for good or decent sex.
Even if you have sex under those circumstances its going to be crap sex. Coming from where you are, thats not whats good for the R.
Im glad you had a good time. The comments I made originally still stand. She is delicate. She weighs less, her digestive system handles alcohol differantly, her emotions are going to process what happens then, differantly. There is not going to be any 'logic', just raw female. Her social and environmental filters are going to be stripped off a lot quicker then yours. So when you are still acting, ... ... .... proper, she is going to see it as not masculine.
If you go drink for drink, or you are drinking beer and she is drinking fluffy fruity alcohol, she could very easily become tanked a lot faster.
So in a spirit of caring and cherishing, you monitor and control her alcohol intake.
You did get to see that she does want to be intimate with you.

Ive stood resolute in the face of all kinds of remarks and comments about her right to continued drinking, my manhood, the ability to drink like a real man, blah blah blah, blah blah blah.
and then been rewarded later and again the next morning for being resolute. Its a test.
Ill take a thank you delivered in the form of actions, over words anytime.

The remarks dont phase me, because *I* know they arent true.
Since *I* know they arent true, there is no need to convince them they arent, or placate in any other fashion.
If I was unsure of my ability to drink I would feel compelled to 'prove it'. Bzz. lose. No sex. Unless you decide to spank the impertinant monkey, but then you have to be willing to cuddle the bunny later. (Im really pleased with Mojo, enabling me to use that phrase in a new way. :snoopy dance: spanking the monkey, SPAnking the monnnkey. now she has a chicken suit on over the bunny, so If Im not careful I could inadvertantly choke the chicken, too. enough. )
for example, after having your ability questioned for a few too many weeks, you decide to deliver lessons on impertinance, and do 2 triple shots of makers mark with her in 4 minutes. After she wanders off in a zig zag, You must be able to go find her, even if she is curled up under a table out on the patio AND get everyone home safely. Still... no sex. so you win. but Bzzz. no sex.

If I was unsure of my manhood, I might cry and tell her she isnt being very nice. Bzz. Lose. No Sex. or ask her why she is being mean. Bzz. lose. No Sex.
If I thought I was a cruel overbearing tyrant who was abusive and capable of taking away her right to continue drinking, I might feel compelled to apologize and buy her another one.
BZZZZZZZZ. No sex. for so maaanny reasons.

Whats the name of that book mojo is always quoting.... oh yeah, He just isnt that into you or some such title.
That book is so biologically non viable, a couple of drinks, an environmental constraint shed, and *whooooooosh* it all goes right out the window. Men dont get women drunk so they can sleep with them, women allow themselves to get drunk so they can sleep with men. Thinking the other way, is about your ego wanting her to be 'innocent'. Ridiculous.

I'm wary of what this will do to the kids and on top of that, I really DON'T want to be a part-time dad which will be inevitable. I'm also wary that my financial state will mean I'd have to move back in with my parents for a while. Not cool.

I'm certainly not afraid of being without her, or without her love - I'm just not in a particularly great financial position at the moment, and there are a bunch of other consequences that this would be thrown up if we split.


This is the real problem
I really DON'T want to be a part-time dad which will be inevitable.
your thinking about what you DONT want. In driving there is a concept that says when you lose control of the car you look where you want to go. You DONT look at the 18 inch wide telephone pole on the left side, or the 3 foot cement barrier on the right. You stare at the 15 feet of space in between them.
Your mind doesnt hear a negative. ... not like that at least. it hears you saying I really [ ] want to be a part-time dad which will be inevitable.
YIKES.
Stop that. Immediately.

Think about what you WANT. Go after what you WANT. Write down what you WANT. Work towards what you WANT. Let her see what you WANT.

Have you seen loonyqt thread? She is saying Having an affair is NOT my preferance. You know what her brain hears? Having an affair is [ ] my preferance. shrug.

AC, DO what you want.

that is differant then,

do what YOU want.
Both statements appear attractive in the short term. Only one of them is attractive in the long term.

I'd like to have all my ducks in a row, as it were, before I stirred things up.
Continue working on getting your ducks in a row. Know that you will. Because you will, if you work at it.
The last part of the sentence
before I stirred things up. is placating.

Do you think that you are less deserving now, then if you have all your ducks in a row? Do you think its ok for her to neglect you, abuse you, leave you, etc, because you dont have all your ducks in a row?
When the wind dies and the sails go flat, does the captain put the crew to work, increase discipline, and keep them busy, or let them lolligag around mumbling, blaming him for their fate, and plotting mutiney?

No it will not be easy. Do it anyways. If you can do it now, think how easy it will be when the sails are full of wind again.


Now Im going to lay back a little. If you cant, dont beat yourself up about it. Your a man.


I didnt. I wasnt happy with how my ducks were, and they really wernt messed up. I thought they were, because they werent how I wanted them. My thoughts caused me to act. Lots of men have their ducks out of order. They arent concerned about it, and they dont act ....unattractively.


Now I know, but I still cant say if I could do it. Only one way to find out.

So if you want to wait and get your ducks in a row, thats understandable, but you cant expect her to have desire, as long as you are placating. She is there. Thats something.

She is probably ineffectually trying-- just like you are.

I'm not saying that this is all down to stubbornness on her behalf (even though she is one of the most stubborn people I've ever met) but it's almost like we're 99% there, but she doesn't want to be the one to give in because she'll feel like I've 'won'. Or something. Does that make sense?


Well then, since its about her feeling like you will win, it would be good idea if she felt like she won. Think about that.

She probably wont mind feeling like you have won, if you dont hurt her with it.
Intimacy is vulnerability. Vulnerability is risky. She doesnt want to risk opening herself. She is afraid. Your afraid. She is over there thinking about what she doesnt want, and so are you.
Its ridiculous, both of your fears are preventing you from what you both want.
I dont know how long you have read/lurked here, or how far back you have read, but if I say, the man's mental state controls the R, do you know what that means?

But if I try to progress any physical contact towards true intimate contact, she'll find that uncomfortable and she'll put a stop to it with some crap excuse.

But, like I said, she'll kind of admit that she likes the touching. I'm not saying that this is all down to stubbornness on her behalf (even though she is one of the most stubborn people I've ever met) but it's almost like we're 99% there, but she doesn't want to be the one to give in because she'll feel like I've 'won'.

Maybe some of the formerly LD ladies can also give you some insight into this.

As for my reactions, I used to stomp around and sulk a little (a lot?) but learned that it didn't get me anywhere. Now, most of the time, I [make her believe that I] take it in my stride and I brush it off and tell her something like "hey, it's your loss" - but in a positive/jokey way

Ok. your learned what didnt work and stopped. good.
The second one You are still not being congruent. you dont really believe what you are saying and in affect are non verbally telling your W, you think she is stupid, because you think she cant determine what you are doing.

Its time to get real, and be sincere. Take it in stride.
Playfulness is not meant to be a defensive reaction.
Doing that doesnt make any sense. If a guy swings at your head, do you giggle, tap him on the shoulder and say, 'your siiiillllly'?
No.
You can swing back but then, you never know who will wind up on top.

If you catch his swing, pull him close, look in his eye and say, 'thats not a good idea' and let him go, it sends a completely differant message.

Have you and your W, gone to counseling about the A?
People want to be understood. If you dont understand them, all of them,all 4 boxes, they cant trust you. If they cant trust you, they wont WANT to surrender.

If you allow the A to be swept under the rug, your W will never feel like you understand her. If she KNOWS you see all of her facets, and still love her.... she will feel understood. She can safely surrender.
She is not going to give up the way she thinks you want to see her easily. She could be right, in which case its time to open your eyes and decide.
She could be wrong, but youll have to prove it too her before she will let it go.
Its going to take quite a fight. Its going to be quite a rollercoaster. You may get nauseous.
Your a surfer. You dont fight the energy you ride it. she is always unpredictable. You may read her wrong, and it wipes you out, but you go back out and catch the next one. and the next one and the next one.

You can do this.

One last thing. I love the Uruguay trip/idea -everything about it.
If your R is healthy, it should be able to handle it.
Make sure your not using it as a defensive pre-emptive withdrawal mechanism.

Withdrawal is extremely painful to women. (Not that it isnt to us) So is the threat of it. Panic causes all kinds of strange reactions.

If your trip is a defense mechanism, you will use it to punish your W, and you will end up that part time dad.
If its not to punish her, you will do it for you, not to prove anything to her, and eventually she will be part of it.
I have a book recommendation. 'Ultra Marathon Man.'
If you have read and understand Deida, you can pick up many many facets of the author's M.

Even if you havent- its a good read on masculinity.

BTW, Like I said before, I have found you can only focus on 2 of the 3 goal orientations at a time. You can however do and maintain all three. It takes.. self discipline, time management, and MODERATION, in all things.
If you are selfish, put your needs first, and DO the important things first, there is plenty of time for the rest. Youll be looking for ways to fill your time. If you wander aimlessly from unimportant to unimportant thing, youll never have time for the important stuff. If its important, you will schedule it.
I schedule it.

[AmbientCoast]

Wow, long one.

Well, before you'd even written all that, I'd decided that it *was* time to stir things up myself. So, at the weekend, I wrote her a tough letter, telling her *exactly* what I wanted out of my marriage - which included regular sex amongst other stuff. I told her that I wasn't happy to rattle along in a relationship like this. I made her completely aware about the feelings of rejection she was causing me. And I put it in no uncertain terms that if things carried on like this, then it would all go pear-shaped again.

I also made it clear that I wasn't expecting things to change overnight, either - but that we needed to work on getting ourselves to a point where things could begin to change.

I was expecting it to go one of two ways. 1) it would have caused another same-old argument where I'd have finally thought enough was enough, I'd have packed my stuff, and walked. Or 2) she'd come and give me a big tearful hug, and then slowly begin to ramp up the the physical affection she used to be able to show me, with a view to getting us back on an even keel.

Any guesses which way it went?

[blackfoot]

I dont care which way it went. Did you?

Nicely done.

[shmagic]

A.C.

Okay HOW DID IT GO??????

I'm guessing praying hoping she kissed you passionately and you ripped one anothers clothes off and had SEX!!!!!!

Then again I'm an eternal optimist.

Please tell me I'm right pleeeese

shmagic

[blackfoot]

Hey AC

As you maintain your boundaries, and you move along, your likely to have feelings of resentment come up.

Have a plan for dealing with that?
Keep us posted.

keep surfing.

[AmbientCoast]

Okay HOW DID IT GO??????

Well, there was no argument, the hug happened, and the affection has definitely been ramped up since. That was all a shock, to be honest. I was expecting a fight. And yep, I did care about which way it would go - I was just more ready than ever for it going the 'wrong' way.

So... it was our wedding anniversary yesterday and we had the kids in bed on time, nice meal, chocolates, champagne, blah, blah... until about 10pm when she decides to head off to bed. 'Hmmmmm', thought I. I lock up and follow her up a minute or two later, and she's in bed with the lights off. So I edge my way around the bed, get in, and discover that she's facing away from me, about as far away as she could possibly get (it's a big bed), with jogging pants on and a big old top and, best of all... she's already asleep.

Either that or she was pretending to be asleep.

Tell me if I'm waaay off here, but if there's no chance of intimacy and closeness on our fricking anniversary night (no matter how tired you are), then what hope is there for the other 364 days of the year?

Decision time, eh.

[blackfoot]

AC,

have you had a face to face convo with your W?

Have you sat down and discussed your letter?

Your W has upped the affection, did you think she was going to initiate sex also? At any point did you say something along the lines of, 'head upstairs and get ready, Im making love to my W tonight'.
or was the night just fraught with underlying tension and uncomfortableness?
So... it was our wedding anniversary yesterday and we had the kids in bed on time, nice meal, chocolates, champagne, blah, blah...
Did you have expectation and assumption because of this? A covert contract I think Glover calls it? The long lead in and excessive foreplay freaks them out. Its too much pressure. Its too much thinking.

Do you know how uncomfortable she is? Im not saying to excuse her because of that. But the impetus has to come from somewhere.
Especially since it has been so long.
Her head is not anywhere near the same place as yours.


Have you had the talk about going to counseling?
Have you expressed your boundary clearly. A clear boundary has no retailiation in it. Its about you, not her.

[blackfoot]

Do you still think there is a chance she is lurking here?
Because if she is, she is continuing to play a game and not meeting you halfway nor taking any responsibility for her half in resolving this issue.

That wouldnt make me feel apologetic.
Quit dancing around the issue. Put it on the table and smear it around.

but if there's no chance of intimacy and closeness on our fricking anniversary night

Did you have any of this thruout the day, or is this a euphemism for sex?

[AmbientCoast]

AC,

have you had a face to face convo with your W?

Have you sat down and discussed your letter?

I've tried, but don't really get much of a response. Always ends with me saying something like, "we've *at least* got to be able to *talk* about it...".

Having said that, she has referred to a couple of things that I told her I wasn't happy with in the letter - but only the non-sexual things - so I assume she took it all in.

Your W has upped the affection, did you think she was going to initiate sex also?

Well I'm certainly NOT allowed to initiate it right now, so who the hell else is going to do it? The postman? The elderly couple next door? Our cat?

At any point did you say something along the lines of, 'head upstairs and get ready, Im making love to my W tonight'.
or was the night just fraught with underlying tension and uncomfortableness?

No, I didn't say anything because I'd only have a gotten a blank response. But there was no underlying anything all night (or at least until she nodded off again), and it was actually a nice night for the most part.

Did you have expectation and assumption because of this? A covert contract I think Glover calls it? The long lead in and excessive foreplay freaks them out. Its too much pressure. Its too much thinking.

Yeah, maybe I did expect and assume. Although I never let on that I was expecting and assuming. I understand why I shouldn't do that, but jeez, we're married. With kids. Etc. I expect and assume that I should be able to expect and assume.

I'm really starting to feel cheated in all this.

Do you know how uncomfortable she is? Im not saying to excuse her because of that. But the impetus has to come from somewhere.
Especially since it has been so long.
Her head is not anywhere near the same place as yours.

Yep, she's clearly so uncomfortable that she can't even talk about this. I know that. I don't know where her head is, though.

Have you had the talk about going to counseling?

Yep. And no deal.

One almost slightly interesting thing that happened is that a sex toy catalogue came in the post the other day addressed to her. It's nothing at all to do with me, and she also denies ordering it. However, I have caught her flicking through it a couple times and when she sees that I've noticed her, or when I playfully ask her if she's seen anything in there that she's like, she'll feign disgust at some of the stuff in there and put the catalogue away. Like she's putting on some kind of 'innocent/prude' act for me to see.

Another snippet. I took a shower yesterday am (mainly to MB) and she came in to the bathroom just as I was drying off. She jokingly asked me if that's what I'd been doing and I told her "yep, feel free to join me anytime" with a wink, and she imediately clammed up. So she can talk about this stuff, but only UNTIL it begins to involve her. Make sense?

*Sigh*