Madonna/Whore Complex (part 7)

[RedHeadWife]

SB, thanks for taking so much time for our beloved HW

[Heywyre]

SB, I thank you for taking the time, not only to post but to actually read through my thread (I know it is a looooooong one). As much as my H has been "labelled" occasionally as narcissistic he does NOT fit into that category.

Freud believed that all of us have some narcissistic qualities in us and its a "good" thing. We need to be able to love ourselves before others. A narcissist is self-absorbed, selfish, has an excessive need for admiration and affirmation. Their narcissism usually damages their ability to live a productive or happy life because the traits manifest as severe selfishness and disregard for the needs and feelings of others - my H is none of those things. He has been told he is arrogant but that can be confused with confident, which he is. A lot of his persona comes from being very intelligent. He knows he is, and is confident about it. This can come across as being narcissistic but is it? Is it a crime to be confident about your abilities? He is not self-absorbed, he does not put others before him. Can he be inconsiderate at times? sure, we all can. But, all in all, my H is a VERY humble man. Does he have some narcissistic characteristics, yes. But not enough to describe him as being a narcissist.

Men that have M/W (and/or attachment theory - like my H) put their wives on pedestals. There are their queen and not to be "used" for sex. That would be the ultimate of disrespect (he has told the MC those very words).

He had women friends
He had women lovers
He has never (until me) had the two combined.

This is where he is having the difficulty. He does not know how to put the two together. Even the MC said this is a "perfect textbook example" of attachment. Somewhere along the way in a boy/man's life when lust turns to love and they find that partner they want to marry, the two feelings mesh together. They never did for him because he never had the feeling of bonding to begin with (his primary caregiver - his adoptive mother) therefore he had no idea whatsoever as to how to do it. He will be the first to admit that what he did was wrong (the affairs) and takes no pride in his behaviour.

As much as there are some similarities (isn't there always??) my H is definitely NOT narcissistic - but I do thank you for taking all that time to dredge through my posts.

[StrawberryBlonde]

Hey hey HW! It was good to hear from you. I know that you don't believe that your hubby has NPD, and that's fine. I just think that it's a very viable option to consider since so much of the characteristics also mimic Attachment Theory and M/W.

Men with NPD have, almost to a person, experienced abandonment as infants/children. They often DO put their wives on a pedestal! There are two distinct types of narcissists...the somatic narcissist and the cerebral narcissist.

Somatics use sex, body image, charisma, etc as coping skills. They openly use people up and then throw them away.

Cerebral Narcissists are intellectual, highly intelligent, well read and many times are called arrogant, though those who love them prefer the term confident. (Yep, I'm pointing the finger at myself...I was married to a cerebral narc for 22 years).

Somatics almost never put a woman on a pedestal and often devolve into malignant narcissism...abuse, whether verbal or physical, is common with them.

Cerebrals on the other hand consider violence to be below them. They prefer to detach, rather than attack. The women closest to them are put on a pedestal because cerebrals truly do not know how to feel love and thus, the object of their attention is just that...an object...at times on a pedestal, at times not even a blip on their radar (as when they are going through a life crisis).

Did you by any chance think about whether or not there was a life crisis that might have precipitated your husband's affairs?

Cerebrals withhold sex...sex is dirty to them...for whore's. That is, until there is a life crisis and at that time, the fear of abandonment rises up in them and they seek to bury it again by seeking out other women.

I guess what I'm trying to say, and not doing it very succinctly or well, is that your husband may well have a mild form of Cerebral NPD. Just like any other disorder, it manifests in varying degrees. Some NPD's are highly functional, some are completely psychopathic and unable to cope in society.

It often doesn't manifest all by itself and comes with other things like attachment theory, bipolar disorder, borderline personality and avoidant personality. Depression is common with NPD'ers.

Oh, you mentioned that your T says that hubby is a textbook case and I believe that! I'd be willing to bet the farm that your husband also reads a lot...even self help books and books on M/W and Attachment Theory, right? Cerebrals soak up knowledge and then spit it back out to the right people at the right times... and as you pointed out, your husband told you and the therapist that sex with you disgusts him...that it's dirty.

I'm just not so sure that he was speaking from within himself. It sounds more like he was mirroring...which is a coping skill of cerebrals. They want to help, they want to keep their marriages together..they NEED to keep you near them, because they are lost souls without someone to validate them. They also know that something inside them is broken, and that they have NO clue what it is or if it's fixable...and that scares them to death...because it means that their spouse might abandon them when it's discovered and can't be "cured".

You said that your husband is very willing to have your brother come and live with you. I'm thinking that he's willing to do this because he knows that you will be fixated on helping your brother for a LONG time, and that you'd never leave him when your brother is living there and needs you. it lets your husband off the hook. He will be able to ignore therapy, ignore working on your relationship, and you won't push him too hard because you'll be exhausted and consumed with your brothers needs. For your husband it's a win-win situation.

So...I know that this is a big idea to wrap your mind around when all along you've been operating on the idea that your husband needs intensive therapy in order to learn how to mesh love and sex. And yes, he does need that...but he may also need more than that. NPD has a very low rate of cure with therapy. The milder forms are functional, and so long as the spouse can learn to cope with the dysfunction, the marriage can be...well...comfortable, if not truly intimately connected.

When your husband says that you're asking him for something he can't give you... to change...he means exactly what he says. He doesn't have the capacity to change into what you need, no matter how badly you need it, want it or will it to happen.

As an exercise that helped me, and might help you, try spending the next few days just listening to what your husband says, or has said, to you about who he is and what he's capable of. Take it as fact...as the truth. Don't assume that he's just saying it because he needs help. Don't assume that he doesn't really mean it or that it's a product of his childhood. Take it literally! If he says he can't change...then believe it! If he says that he doesn't want you to touch him, then believe it! If he says that he couldn't live with himself...he's speaking the truth...he knows that he is not capable of being a "normal", liveable, likeable, loving guy. He doesn't want you to leave him, but he isn't capable of changing himself in order to make you happy.

Strictly as an aside, I spent many years wanting, needing, expecting and working, to help my ex-husband to change. I wanted the intimacy and love back that I had had when we were dating. What I didn't realize was that the man I saw for those months prior to marriage was the illusion he created, and the man I lived with for 22 years was the "real" man.

You are coloring in the picture of your husbands past with HIS crayons..his stories, his reality of the events. I did the same. My heart went out to the poor man who had a horrid mother, was abandoned by her as a child and then had a disastrous relationship with a woman he had to marry (she got pregnant in his version of events). She later had at least 2 affairs and finally left him for his best friend. Yep, I believed it all! I was soooo dadgummed sure that these were the events that had caused his depression, his attachment issues, etc, and I never stopped to look at the picture from their side. Many years later I revisited the whole thing. I called his first ex-wife and talked long and hard with her. Her story was quite different from his, and quite similar to mine! She had finally given up and walked away from him...causing yet another life crisis for him..and opening the door for him to meet me and woo me.
(to her credit, she did actually try to warn me prior to the marriage, but she wasn't a psychologist and I was "in love" and sure that she was just trying to cause trouble).

Ok, where am I going with all of this?! LOL Hmmm, I'm concerned for you. I know that you are a compassionate woman...it's written in every line of your posts. I know that you give and give to people and I admire that. I feel like you aren't going to want to read what I've written or to think that it could possibly relate to your husband...but I feel like I still need to write it to you. Even if none of it applies today, or does apply but you aren't ready to accept it...it's ok...at least it's out there and the day might come when you'll take a second look at it and see the parts of the puzzle that fit.

Would you consider calling the ST and asking him if he thinks that a mild of form of Cerebral NPD might also be part of the problem?

In a nutshell, NPD encompasses all of the disorders that your husband has currently been diagnosed with, and it brings along a few extra goodies that they don't. If it's mild, you may learn to cope with it and he may learn to help you cope...after all, he's a cerebral and that means you can appeal to his logical brain!

I'm gonna shush up now..sheesh I can ramble on and on, huh?

Take care,
SB

[Cobra]

Heywire,

I would look into Sam Vaknin's site. I have posted it on this board before. I think a lot of what SB states is true. Furthermore, your definition of a narcissist is too narrow. Look into Vaknin's idea of narcissistic supply and you will see narcissists can be very nice, giving, sacrificing for others, but all for the purpose of getting praise and admiration back. So it is manipulation. I believe Adult Attachment Disorder overlaps with narcissism and both are ways of addressing similar fears. Has your counselor discussed narcissism?

[OG_Lou]

Cobra, HW;
Some narcissistic supply is almost necessary to feel good. Like so many other things, too much/too little and it becomes a problem.

For starters I will say I need some narcissistic supply. I might not recognize it a such and might call it something different to be PC.

Lou

[Heywyre]

First off, thank you all for your concern and comments.

Yes, we have discussed narcissism with the T and he does not agree my H has it. There are always overlying tendencies in a lot of us that enable us to "label" even ourselves.

SB - no, my H doesn't read alot and throw it back at people, he used to read a lot, of course, when he was going to university (who doesn't) but if he does read, it is usually to do with history and/or geography.

He definitely does NOT need to keep me near. If anything, he pushes me away more often than not. He is a VERY secure and independent man and would walk out before he was pushed into anything that was uncomfortable emotionally.

For the most part, from hearing stories from his friends and/or family, what he is telling me about his childhood is completely correct. I am sure there are things he has distorted (but I am sure I have distorted a few things myself - does that make me a narcissist?)

I would never rule out narcissism totally, but I am more likely to believe what the T has told us - that it relates primarily to attachment theory. However, IF he goes to the new guy, and IF he tells me anything about it, I will be sure to let you know if anything pertaining to narcissism comes up

It should be an interesting road in the next few months