Ditto what cobra said. A good example is dealing with an alcoholic. At some point you have to pull back and realize that his/her drinking is not about you. It's the A's problem and the A must deal with it. So you have to detach. Even though, clearly, their drinking DOES affect you and your life. You have to step back, first, to save your own sanity, and second, so they can see that the problem is not coming from you.
The A tends to think, "My drinking is only a problem for YOU. If you'd leave me alone, there would be no problem."
That's another way of saying, "That's just the way I am. I can't change."
When you back out of trying to get them to stop drinking, then any bad consequences from drinking clearly have not been caused by you. Some people never get there.
(1) no I have never left him (2) no, I wasn't on the MLC board (3) you are not hogging my thread, feel free to make any comments you feel like (4) easier to pull back from an alcoholic and make them responsible for their actions (i.e. cleaning up their own puke, dealing with the law etc.) but what will detaching do to make him responsible for his actions. Do I just withdraw and not do anything to try and save this M? (5) I have stepped back, a long time ago. I refer to it as "taking back my power". It was pretty effective at the time but doesn't seem to be doing much at this point. There is only so much you can withdraw from. Do I stop being his wife? (i.e. cooking, cleaning etc.? after all, I have to live here too)
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I know you have a similar sitch to what Mojo went through, and her H was so mired in the pit of his FOO and his anger and issues toward his mother that it was more than he could climb out of. But your H is going to counseling. That says something. It does not surprise me that he is stonewalling. I went through the same phase in counseling. Actually both my wife and I did. I got tired of listening to my W saying I was not facing my issues, that she knew all about her stuff and had addressed her problems but I was in denial of everything. I knew it was BS.
So I switched tracks and started to learn and read as much as I could. That is when I joined this board. Initially, all that work I did was just a continuation of the power struggle. I was able to level the playing field and slowly throw back at her all the inconsistencies and deflections she was making toward me. I was pissed, but so was she. So we continued to have our blow-ups. The counseling sessions also changed. The focus began to shift to her and her deflections. The counselor began to see that my W was stalling. Like your H, my W began to feel we were ganging up on her. When I tried to push a little harder to break through, my W decided to stop going to counseling.
Maybe your counselor has made the same error. Just because he has 30 years experience does not say anything about his ability to handle such difficult cases. In hindsight I can see where our first counselor made some serious tactical mistakes. The first counselor alienated me. The second counselor alienated my W. I see earlier in this thread that Lil made some suggestions about your counselor and for you to really hear what your H is saying. I think you should go aback and read Lil’s post. I completely agree with her.
My W and I have not been to counseling in some time. A rest period is not a bad thing. It allows time for all the new information to settle in. It allows time for the defensiveness and anger to die down. I sense a LOT of resentment in you. I know it is justified, you have every reason in the world to be angry. But I have two questions for you:
1) Why have you stayed with your H over the years after all he has done? Be honest about this because a healthy person would have left him, or at least separated, after the first affair. What did you gain by staying, or at least, what did you feel you avoided by not leaving? What is your vulnerability?
2) How have you created a safe space for your H to express his fears and vulnerability? How have you shown your compassion and concern for him in a way that allows him to open up without shame? How have you allowed yourself to be a softer, more vulnerable partner than your H so that he must step up to rescue you, rather than fall back into his pity pot for you to rescue him?
We have made a giant leap in that we have come to an agreement that my H needs to express his emotions more and I need to perhaps curtail my neediness a little and then we can meet in the middle somewhere (although he is understanding to the fact that might not happen overnight as the majority of my neediness right now stems from him having the A's as I was not at all needy before)
This was a valuable insight. But I seriously doubt you were not needy before his affairs. At that time, there was no need for you to express your neediness, but it was there.
There was a lot of back and forth accusing, deflecting and avoiding, as usual but I think H has finally come to a special place when he said "maybe I just need to listen to you sometimes and not say anything and go away and think about it"
DUH!!! Ya think?? (thought it, didn't say it )
The reason I posted this comment of yours is that I feel an underlying tone of resentment plus a need to be “right.” It was good you didn’t say anything, but I am sure your H feels your attitude, and under the surface he might feel a confrontational, oppositional attitude (not blaming you). But it is a power struggle and only serves to distance you two.
I have been going WAAAAY outside my comfort zone for the last couple of months now, putting my feelings and emotions completely on the table, which the ST is quite pleased with.
Another example of you possibly feeling like you are getting the upper hand and tilting the power struggle in your favor. It is good you are pushing yourself, but the fact that it is WAAAY out side your comfort zone says something. It should not be that difficult for you to express yourself to your H. It may not seem like he has been able to step out of his comfort zone as much as you have, but who knows, to him, he may feel like he has stepped further out than you.
And, trust me, I have been "squirming" the last couple of weeks. I have dug deeper than I ever have in my own life and admitted a lot of things, in therapy and to my H, regarding my own personal life.
Good for you. Take the lead on the emotional front. Show your H your vulnerability in expressing your issues and learn that he will not attack you for doing so. It seems you do not feel safe in expressing yourself, just like your H, but maybe a little less severe. I think part of why your H has not expressed himself more is that he still does not feel it is safe to do so. Not saying this is your fault, but that is just how it feels to him.
I think some boundaries can be especially difficult for women to establish toward men (and the reverse is also true for other types of boundaries). You have the chore of setting up a hard boundary in not tolerate any more cheating behavior. That will feel like a challenge to him, like a confrontation, an ultimatum, the type of situation I bet he had to endure with all his youth. The only way he knew to survive was to just do what he wanted, detach from any consequences that might occur, and ignore the pain he inflicted, just as his pain was ignored. He is only repeating the cycle.
I also bet that he had to play out that scenario time and time again, whenever he wanted to do something, or whenever he didn’t want to do what his parents wanted him to do. Yet that family “unit” stayed in place long enough for him to see that the members would not leave and that each could repeat his/her practice of dumping on each other. In these types of situations (which is what I grew up in), the members almost come to think they have a “right” to do this. Each has taken his share of abuse, so each has the “right” to dish it out. That is the ONLY way to defend oneself and not get completely walked over. It truly is a survival of the fittest.
But this type of environment means each person must insulated him/herself from the pain s/he inflicts. After all, no one comes to your rescue when you have been hurt, right? So you either shut down, or become extra emotional and volatile. There’s not much middle ground. Either an aggressive, emotional volcano or passive aggressive hermit living in a cave. Does any of this sound familiar?
(4) easier to pull back from an alcoholic and make them responsible for their actions (i.e. cleaning up their own puke, dealing with the law etc.) but what will detaching do to make him responsible for his actions. Do I just withdraw and not do anything to try and save this M?
Are you asking me if I think you should go into your cave?
(5) I have stepped back, a long time ago. I refer to it as "taking back my power". It was pretty effective at the time but doesn't seem to be doing much at this point. There is only so much you can withdraw from. Do I stop being his wife? (i.e. cooking, cleaning etc.? after all, I have to live here too)
There is a world of difference between detaching your emotions and checking out from the relationship. Detachment ONLY means stopping your reactions to your H, not letting him push your hot buttons. It does not mean taking back your power, which is a power play or a passive aggressive form or retaliation. It think this is why it has not worked well for you. Think it over. In the past, have you “stepped back” in order to become more empathic and compassionate toward your H or have you done it to subtly retaliate? Your H will know the difference.
easier to pull back from an alcoholic and make them responsible for their actions (i.e. cleaning up their own puke, dealing with the law etc.) but what will detaching do to make him responsible for his actions. Do I just withdraw and not do anything to try and save this M?
You don't have to "make him responsible"; he already IS responsible. You just have to recognize that and cease trying to make him something he already is. He is responsible for his actions whether either or both of your recognize it and act accordingly.
If you truly recognized that he is responsible for himself, who he is, what he does, would that change your behavior at all? Ponder for a moment (while I ponder, too).
Should you withdraw? I don't know... How can you save a marriage by yourself?
If saving the marriage is all you want to do, you can do that by letting him be. Your marriage, as it is, is-- presto!-- saved.
If THIS is not the marriage you want (and I fully comprehend, believe me, that it is not) and he will not join you in remodeling the marriage... what indeed are your options?
Having said that, I have a few comments of my own - please feel free to enlighten me with your reply
Yes, I totally agree that I am fortunate my H is going for counselling - however, that was a "condition" that was established at the time he went on AD for the depression. Now he is talking about "weening" himself off them. And, I can tell you right now, if he goes off them completely, I will no longer be in this M. That is the primary reason the second A happened. He went off the AD, fell back into a deep depression and it happened all over again.
Resentment? - Yes, there is no doubt I probably harboured quite a bit for a long time, particularly after the first A, but I truly believe I have let that go. I have come to realize this is not something he consciously did to hurt me, it is a deep hurt within himself and he is punishing himself, not me. That is something I empathize with, not harbour resentment about
We were both pleased with both counsellors (a rare exception to the rule I suppose) but I truly believe we exhausted their expertise and I, in particular, have felt in the last couple of sessions that my H needed to see someone one-on-one to address his particular avoidance issues. I do not necessarily believe a rest period would be a good thing for my H. He has a tendancy to fall right back into his old ways pretty quickly when allowed to "rest". We have made progress (much to my H's denial of that) and I am not about to let it slip away and have to start all over again (aside from the fact, this has cost us a fortune we don't have)
Quote:
1) Why have you stayed with your H over the years after all he has done? Be honest about this because a healthy person would have left him, or at least separated, after the first affair. What did you gain by staying, or at least, what did you feel you avoided by not leaving? What is your vulnerability?
Our ST asked me this some time ago (and I wasn't allowed to say "because I love him") and there isn't one particular reason, I have a number of them, some to do with values and morals and others to do with my vulnerabilities. I am a very nurturing person by nature, I don't find it difficult or an effort to be that way with anyone (my H comments on it all the time). However, I do know part of what I struggle with is from my childhood and how "nothing was ever good enough" for my mother. I KNOW this about myself and I have done a lot of work to overcome this barrier.
What did I gain by staying - keeping my best friend. Regardless of what he did, he is and will always be my best friend. As a matter of fact, if there was one thing I would have to pick that started to turn things around for us was when I said "regardless of what happens between us, will you still be my friend". He just sat there and we have talked about that question, with and without the MC, and he said it was a real changing moment in his mind. For the first time he realized I was not only his wife, but also his friend and he said "I wouldn't treat my friend like that, why am I treating my wife like that".
He has NEVER had a wife/gf that was a friend and a sexual partner. It was either one or the other. This R is the first one that has both and he doesn't know how to combine the two. That is the primary thing we are dealing with
Quote:
How have you created a safe space for your H to express his fears and vulnerability? How have you shown your compassion and concern for him in a way that allows him to open up without shame? How have you allowed yourself to be a softer, more vulnerable partner than your H so that he must step up to rescue you,
He does not acknowledge/admit to any fears or vulnerability. He says there is nothing wrong with him, his emotions are what I see and he is hiding nothing. How do you get through that? I bet if you asked my H (because he has told oodles of people) he would say I was the most compassionate person he knows. As a matter of fact he even told the MC one day that he doesn't know how I live with him because he would find it extremely frustrating living with someone like him.
He also does not want to rescue me - he wants a W that is secure and independent. His other relationships involved women that required rescuing and he isn't with them is he?
I truly was NOT needy before his A's but I know afterwards I started questioning myself (which is natural) and became clingy for a while
We BOTH have a problem with always wanting to be "right" and I think most people do. However, we are also both very open-minded and have always heard the other person out. We do not have the "pulling hair" variety of discussions (we don't call them arguments because they aren't - however they might escalate to heated discussions)
No, it should not be difficult to express my emotions to my H and I have improved on that 110% BUT, when you express your emotions and get shot down, it isn't exactly encouraging is it? But, regardless of his "attacks" I have been following through with the MC suggestions and voicing my feelings regardless of whether he wants to hear them or not - is it working? Who's to say because I don't get much in the way of positive feedback (and I don't yell and scream or use "you" - I strictly use "I" scenarios)
There was no limitations/restrictions on his "family unit" - he did what he wanted, regardless of what his parents thought. I won't say he was a difficult child but his growing up with a little out of the norm and didn't leave much room for problems. The "problems" started when he was in his 20's. He says his life was happy "until I started getting involved with women" - you can make your own assumptions from there
There are oodles of times I have "stepped back" in order to allow him the space he needs and sometimes I feel I gave him too much space, which in turn was part of the problem that led to the As in my mind
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
Yes, I totally agree that I am fortunate my H is going for counselling - however, that was a "condition" that was established at the time he went on AD for the depression. Now he is talking about "weening" himself off them. And, I can tell you right now, if he goes off them completely, I will no longer be in this M. That is the primary reason the second A happened. He went off the AD, fell back into a deep depression and it happened all over again.
I assume you have told him this in no uncertain terms, right? Why didn’t you leave him the first time he went of ADs, before the second affair? Why did you enable him at that time?
Resentment? - Yes, there is no doubt I probably harboured quite a bit for a long time, particularly after the first A, but I truly believe I have let that go.
If you really let this go, I wouldn’t be picking it up on an impersonal BB.
We were both pleased with both counsellors (a rare exception to the rule I suppose) but I truly believe we exhausted their expertise and I, in particular, have felt in the last couple of sessions that my H needed to see someone one-on-one to address his particular avoidance issues. I do not necessarily believe a rest period would be a good thing for my H. He has a tendancy to fall right back into his old ways pretty quickly when allowed to "rest". We have made progress (much to my H's denial of that) and I am not about to let it slip away and have to start all over again (aside from the fact, this has cost us a fortune we don't have)
I completely agree with you here. But sometimes a little crack in the armor is all a good counselor needs to takes things to the next level, so I wouldn’t think the counselor has reach the end of his abilities, but that your H has placed a roadblock that precludes the counselor from using his full abilities.
Has your H read any self help books?
Our ST asked me this some time ago (and I wasn't allowed to say "because I love him") and there isn't one particular reason, I have a number of them, some to do with values and morals and others to do with my vulnerabilities. I am a very nurturing person by nature, I don't find it difficult or an effort to be that way with anyone (my H comments on it all the time). However, I do know part of what I struggle with is from my childhood and how "nothing was ever good enough" for my mother. I KNOW this about myself and I have done a lot of work to overcome this barrier.
[b]What did I gain by staying - keeping my best friend.
You do know this is an enmeshed type of reasoning, don’t you. As soon as he takes away his commitment to the friendship, what do you have left except a lot of panic?
As a matter of fact, if there was one thing I would have to pick that started to turn things around for us was when I said "regardless of what happens between us, will you still be my friend". He just sat there and we have talked about that question, with and without the MC, and he said it was a real changing moment in his mind. For the first time he realized I was not only his wife, but also his friend and he said "I wouldn't treat my friend like that, why am I treating my wife like that".
Do you see how your enmeshing statement was very comforting to him. This is what he really wants from you, though admitting to such would be a sign of weakness, not manly, shameful, etc.
There was no limitations/restrictions on his "family unit" - he did what he wanted, regardless of what his parents thought. I won't say he was a difficult child but his growing up with a little out of the norm and didn't leave much room for problems. The "problems" started when he was in his 20's. He says his life was happy "until I started getting involved with women" - you can make your own assumptions from there
This is the hardest part of your response for me to swallow. Maybe I read this wrong, but it sounds a lot like either you or he is minimizing, or denying, what went on in his childhood. But then again, if your H has had problems getting in touch with his feelings, it makes PERFECT sense that he is out of touch with his FOO. In fact, I’m willing to bet that he does not even accurately remember his childhood, but instead has idealized it in his mind to recall growing up as “normal.” The very fact that he is so messed up means only one of two things – he has a significant personality disorder that prevents his engagement with people in a “normal” way (which is maybe why he takes ADs?), or he was severely affected by his FOO. There is no other explanation. If it isn’t the former, it has to be the latter. This might be the best place for him to get in touch with his emotions because it is likely the reason for his blocking his emotions.
Have you read anything on narcissism and how it occurs in the family, how it is passed on through generations, and how it is usually induced by environment rather than genetics? In other words, you get it from your parents. This can occur even if the parents are not overtly narcissistic. There are lots of ways a child to come to focus on his/her needs only and block empathy toward others.
He has NEVER had a wife/gf that was a friend and a sexual partner. It was either one or the other. This R is the first one that has both and he doesn't know how to combine the two. That is the primary thing we are dealing with
Maybe. I wonder if it is only a symptom of deeper problems, especially like his FOO. Treating the symptoms won’t get you anywhere.
He does not acknowledge/admit to any fears or vulnerability. He says there is nothing wrong with him, his emotions are what I see and he is hiding nothing. How do you get through that? I bet if you asked my H (because he has told oodles of people) he would say I was the most compassionate person he knows. As a matter of fact he even told the MC one day that he doesn't know how I live with him because he would find it extremely frustrating living with someone like him.
Yep, sort of ties in with my idea that he is in denial of his FOO and that a lot more sh*t happen back then than he is willing to admit or remember. It can also be that he recalls his childhood as he saw it through heavily distorted filters, and if he could re-examine his youth from a healthier viewpoint, he might come to see where his parents did not always protect him as he wanted, and how he built up a lot of anger and resentment that he then learned to stuff and deny.
We BOTH have a problem with always wanting to be "right" and I think most people do.
OK, I have my hypothesis on why he needs to be right. What is your reason?
No, it should not be difficult to express my emotions to my H and I have improved on that 110% BUT, when you express your emotions and get shot down, it isn't exactly encouraging is it? But, regardless of his "attacks" I have been following through with the MC suggestions and voicing my feelings regardless of whether he wants to hear them or not - is it working? Who's to say because I don't get much in the way of positive feedback (and I don't yell and scream or use "you" - I strictly use "I" scenarios)
Do you tell you H VERY SPECIFICALLY how this or that particular statement or action hurt your feelings, how it made you abandoned, fearful, whatever? It may sound almost childish to have to do this, but a traumatized, shut down person like your H truly does not get it. Showing your pain very explicitly, holding it up for him to see and feel with help him get in touch with his own feelings.
I suspect he was able to be much more sympathetic with you kids when they were small. So he does have some capacity for empathy in him. He is choosing to block it. He may not be fully aware that you feel pain like your kids would. Check out the book “You Don’t Have to Take it Anymore” by Steven Stosny. He explains why traditional marriage counseling and anger management classes do not work, how those approaches put the man on the spot, attack his ego, and make him even more defensive. His suggestion is to use compassion. It takes a really big person to be able to do this.
Yes, I have told him in no uncertain terms. He is fully aware there are no third chances. Why did I "enable" him. Maybe I was naive, maybe I was trusting - who knows. All I know is I truly believed we had gone through a "bad spell" in our M and were on our way to repairing the damage. People make mistakes and I believe in giving them the benefit of the doubt
I don't know what you are picking up regarding "resentment" but that's your opinion, and not how I feel
I also believe the counsellors could have gone further with us but he has ran into a road block with my H and told him so. His only other option is to go to see this new guy that specializes in a specific type of therapy that dealts with this type of resistance.
Yes, he has read a number of self-help books (much to my surprise) - thus the reason I believe he is trying a whole heck of a lot harder than he was the first time, and just another reason for me NOT to throw in the towel. However, having said that, he has not put into practice much of what he has read, but he has some (which is still better than nothing) - he's an old dog.
I find your explanation of the whole "enmeshing" a little confusing. It seems on one hand you tell me it is not a good thing and then you say it is comforting to my H - which is it?
he came from an incredible family, his parents were VERY supportive of him, especially his father. He was VERY close to his father. As much as there was not much physical touch shown between his parents (because of their living conditions and the fact they were British - sorry Brits, but they have a tendancy to be rather standoffish - my own family was the same way) his father encouraged him to show his emotions and never scolded him for crying - he was one of the few boys of his generation that was allowed to cry and encouraged to do so. However, he remembers being the one to isolate himself from his parents, not the other way around. He preferred being by himself and when things were bothering him, he would go off by himself to deal with things. This became a pattern in his life and is still there to this day. He never bonded with his adoptive mother, and the MC is confident he is a textbook example of the "attachment theory" and even my H agrees with that analogy (which in itself is a surprise)
He remembers his childhood quite vividly. He recalls being responsible for a lot of chores but also the freedom to come and go as he pleased when his chores were done. He recalls "dusty roads, fluffy clouds and blue skies, and sitting on the edge of the lake fishing". He recalls his father working very hard to provide for the family and then coming home and working the land (they homesteaded 160 acres). He has fond memories and a lot of respect for his father, in particular
As far as the AD - whose to know, maybe it is hereditary. We will never know that because he's adopted. His daughter also suffers from a milder form of depression so we suspect that might be the case.
My H is probably one of the most empathic people you will ever meet (if you didn't know his personal life) - he just can't seem to apply it to his most personal relationship
Part of understanding the "attachment theory" is that the people (men mostly) have not bonded with their primary caregiver (in his case his adoptive mother) therefore it affects all other close relationships that person has from that day forward because that one relationship, the primary one, was not established and therefore they have no pattern to follow (a simple explanation of it of course). Men, as they are growing up have friends, male and female, they also have thoughts of lust and sex. Somewhere (for most) the two mesh together and that's when the thought of marriage etc. come into play. For my H, and others such as GEL's H, the meshing of the two never happen. They can have sexual encounters OR female friends, but not both. When someone comes along that is their friend (such as me) and they try to get close sexually/emotionally, that's when they start to pull away. The closer they get emotionally the more they pull away - vicious circle? you bet it is!!
Yes, I tell him VERY specifically how I feel. I try as much as possible not to point fingers and accuse him of things. Instead I use "when you said this, I felt .." - I am VERY conscious of that
He was not all that sympathetic with my children (they are from my first marriage). He was never a "kid person" and would have preferably not had any. He left the rearing to me, but would back me up if I got resistence from the children. He was always very supportive of my abilities to bring up my children but remained there for them in a gentle way. To this day my two daughters absolutely adore him and would be devastated if they knew what he had done to me. I would never tell them simply to protect THEM, far more so than my H - and it doesn't prove or get you anywhere anyway. To do so would be nothing short of vindictive
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I find your explanation of the whole "enmeshing" a little confusing. It seems on one hand you tell me it is not a good thing and then you say it is comforting to my H - which is it?
It is both, but under two different circumstances. Let me explain. Enmeshing is not healthy for a long term relationship, for all the reasons often discussed on this board. Schnarch does a good job in explaining this in his book. (BTW, have you and your H read “Passionate Marriage?” If not, I highly recommend it, especially for your H.)
Your H is not well differentiated. He looks to you for comfort. When you do not validate his needs, he gets angry and blames you for his discomfort. Lil likes to use alcoholism as an analogy, and it does fit. You H is addicted to others for his validation as an alcoholic is addicted to his bottle. This is the enmeshment. The cure is to take away the bottle, but cutting an addiction cold turkey can be dangerous. When you put down too hard a boundary, it send your H into a panic and he retaliates, just as an alcoholic would do. He tries to get the bottle back, one way or another, and when he does, he is happy and content again. When you re-enmesh with your H, he is also comforted. It soothes him in the short run, but in the long run it only perpetuates the dysfunctional dance. Does this make sense?
…. He preferred being by himself and when things were bothering him, he would go off by himself to deal with things. This became a pattern in his life and is still there to this day. He never bonded with his adoptive mother, and the MC is confident he is a textbook example of the "attachment theory" and even my H agrees with that analogy (which in itself is a surprise)
There’s no way I can debate the truth of what your H says about his past, except that in my mind the pieces don’t all fit together. Perhaps the missing link concerns his relationship with his adoptive mother. I don’t understand why a happy boy would go off to deal with things by himself. What was it he was trying to deal with? Not that you need to answer me, but these are the type of inconsistencies you night ask your H. Try to pry under the rocks. You say he is out of touch with his emotions. Do you think he was more in touch with them as a child? If so, how did he lose touch, or could it be he was never in touch with them in his youth either?
He remembers his childhood quite vividly. He recalls being responsible for a lot of chores but also the freedom to come and go as he pleased when his chores were done. He recalls "dusty roads, fluffy clouds and blue skies, and sitting on the edge of the lake fishing". He recalls his father working very hard to provide for the family and then coming home and working the land (they homesteaded 160 acres). He has fond memories and a lot of respect for his father, in particular
Read the book “The Narcissistic Family” by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman, Robert M. Pressman. The authors report that many children growing up in dysfunctional families report the same sort of fond memories that you just mentioned. Yet they were severely damaged in their childhood. How could that be? The answer is that their memories have become very selective and as children, they did not know enough to identify a dysfunctional relationship when they saw one. So take what your H says with a grain of salt.
As far as the AD - whose to know, maybe it is hereditary. We will never know that because he's adopted. His daughter also suffers from a milder form of depression so we suspect that might be the case.
Wow!!! I just got to this part! He was adopted? And he does not feel connected to his mother, or to you? Your counselor’s idea that your H suffers from attachment disorder sounds like it is on the mark. This is a form of trauma.
He has a daughter, but you say your kids are from a previous M. So he was married before and had this daughter? Does he keep in touch with her? How empathic is he toward her? What was his ex-wife like? Why did they split?
Here is a thread on Adult Attachment Disorder that I posted about a year ago: Adult Attachment Disorder
Yes, it makes sense but I don't think it applies to me or my sitch because my H has NEVER looked to me for comfort, he has always dealt with things on his own - ALWAYS
Yes, as a child he never sought comfort either. For instance, he relayed one sitch to me when he had hurt himself and was crying. His father came up to him and asked him what was wrong. He said "nothing" and just went off to deal with his own emotions. If his parents would push the issue or try to comfort him in any way, he would get upset and just push them away further.
I know this stems (primarily) from him being adopted and abandoned (in his mind) so he therefore won't let anyone in to comfort him in ANY way. He does not do this consciously and would deny it if you even suggested it (which MC has numerous times)
Quote:
He has a daughter, but you say your kids are from a previous M. So he was married before and had this daughter? Does he keep in touch with her? How empathic is he toward her? What was his ex-wife like? Why did they split?
Yes, he has two daughters that he keeps in touch with regularly (they both live quite far from us, have families of their own) - he saw the older one yesterday as a matter of fact, said he had a "good" conversation with her (her H came into town for a course and she came with him)
He doesn't show much in the way of empathy towards either of his daughters. Their relationship has always been off and on - depending more on what they are going through as opposed to him. They both carry resentment about what they consider their father "abandoning" them, although the older one says that she has forgiven him (but she asked him yesterday if he had forgiven himself - to which he replied "I've never thought about it")
His W had an A, but they reconciled, he claims it didn't bother him and he was ready to move forward but she wanted out. To this day both his children think HE was the one that had the A (all the more reason not to tell them either as they would just say - well he did it once before - when that wasn't the case)
He was a country bumpkin, got a girl pregnant and married her because it was the "right thing to do". They are as different as night and day. She is a very nice woman but definitely not on the same page as he is
Yes, he is definitely suffering from trauma but that is where we are at a standstill. It has nothing to do with me at all (and that has been confirmed by the MC). If you ask my H about me I can tell you word for word what he would say (because he has said it all through our M, to friends, family, the MC etc. etc.) He would tell you what a "compassionate, nurturing, caring woman" I am and "how lucky (he) is to have me in (his) life". He would go on to say "she is my foundation and the one that give me the strength to be the best I can be" - doesn't sound like someone that has attachment issues does it? But, actually it is the PERFECT example of a casebook attachment theory
Why? Because he puts me on a pedestal, the perfect wife (who is NOT to be touched sexually because that would be treating her with disrespect) - he has said those exact words to the MC. We are NOT dealing with the average marital problems here. If you read my thread (Madonna/Whore complex) you will see all what we have been through (with a tremendous amount of help from GEL) and how it does not relate AT ALL to your "usual" scenarios. Even the MC told us this would definitely not be treated the same way
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I stumbled on this site a few days ago, and have read your entire Madonna/Whore thread...start to finish. For the first few sections, I was fascinated to find that your story sounded soooooo much like mine! The husband you described in the beginning could be my husbands twin..lol
Then things started to diverge somewhere in the middle of the threads and I started to see something different in your husbands personality. I can't tell you how thrilled I was to read of your MC and ST...thinking that you were going to find answers to your SSM. And dang me, I was so darned proud of your husband for going to the counseling and seeming to work at bettering your relationship.
Try as I might though, I couldn't manage to fit my own husband's LD into the Madonna/Whore syndrome...yeesh, where DOES he fit?
(I'm getting to my point, honest I am...grab some coffee and get ready)
Soooo, along about chapter five or six of your threads, I ran into the bit about your husband feeling that you two should just do your own thing to repair the marriage and shouldn't "have" to follow that silly therapists homework and bingo, my antenna shot up and started doing whirlygigs. Combine that with your husbands "affair" with an escort and the fact that he told you he was "fine" on the day(actually, he told you this before, during and after that day!) he had to be in her town, yet all the while planning to meet with her and spend the afternoon and then top it off with his current refusal to acknowledge that he NEEDS to make changes, and you have a whole nother kind of personality disorder.
I am NOT coming down on you with what I'm about to point out...I'm actually just pointing out inconsistencies or oddities to help illustrate why I'm thinking that your husband has more than just attachment theory or Madonna/Whore complex, k?
Inconsistency: In the beginning you said that he was vulnerable to that particular escort because he's always had a soft spot for needy kids....yet later on you said that he's never been particularly empathetic towards his own daughters, never really wanted kids and left you to raise your own without his input (except if you asked for it, and even then he was simply supportive, not proactive).
Oddity: You often tell us that he refers to you as "an angel", "a good girl", etc...terms that don't connote any emotional attachment to the object in question. He tells you that you are the only person who can put up with him and that he wouldn't be able to put up with himself! That's not love talking, that's manipulation. Patting you on the head and telling you what a good girl you are to him, as he heads to bed, is...well... NOT the behavior of a man who is emotionally attached to his wife.
I'm going to post a section of a FAQ by Sam Vaknin...and though I haven't asked his permission, I'm pretty sure he'd not only approve, but (since he's a professed narcissist) he'd even be happy to see it here.
Before I do though, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions if that's ok.
1) Are your husband's adoptive parents still alive? If not, did one of them die prior to either of his known affairs?
2) Were there any other life crisis events that occurred prior to the affairs and/or his depression?
On to the section taken from Sam Vaknin's FAQ page:
"Some narcissists prefer "complicated" situations. If men – they prefer virgins, married women, frigid or lesbian women, etc. The more "difficult" the target – the more rewarding the narcissistic outcome. Such a narcissist may be married, but he does not regard his extra-marital affairs as either immoral or a breach of any explicit or implicit contract between him and his spouse. He keeps explaining to anyone who cares to listen that his other sexual partners are nothing to him, meaningless, that he is merely taking advantage of them and that they do not constitute a threat and should not be taken seriously by his spouse. In his mind a clear separation exists between the honest "woman of his life" (really, a saint) and the whores that he is having sex with. He tends to cast the whole feminine sub-species in a bad light (with the exception of the meaningful women in his life). His behaviour, thus, achieves a dual purpose: the securing of Narcissistic Supply, on the one hand – and bringing about a replay of old, unresolved conflicts and traumas (abandonment and the Oedipal conflict, to mention but two). When inevitably abandoned by his spouse – the narcissist is veritably shocked and hurt. This is the sort of crisis, which might drive him to psychotherapy. Still, deep inside, he feels compelled to continue to pursue precisely the same path. His abandonment is cathartic, purifying. Following a period of deep depression and suicidal ideation – the narcissist is likely to feel cleansed, invigorated, unshackled, ready for the next round of hunting.
(My Note: This is the type of man your husband sounds most like to me) But there is another type of narcissist. He also has bouts of sexual hyperactivity in which he trades sexual partners and tends to regard them as objects. However, with him, this is a secondary behaviour. It appears mainly after major narcissistic traumas and crises. A painful divorce, a devastating personal financial upheaval – and this type of narcissist adopts the view that the "old solutions" do not work anymore. He frantically gropes and searches for new ways to attract attention, to restore his False Ego (=his grandiosity) and to secure the subsistence level of Narcissistic Supply. Sex is handy and is a great source of the right kind of supply: immediate, interchangeable, comprehensive (it encompasses all the aspects of the narcissist's being), natural, highly charged, adventurous, pleasurable. Thus, following a life crisis, the cerebral narcissist is likely to be deeply involved in sexual activities – very frequently and almost to the exclusion of other matters.
However, as the memories of the crisis fade, as the narcissistic wounds heal, as the Narcissistic Cycle re-commences and the balance is restored – the second type of narcissist reveals his true colours. He abruptly loses interest in sex and in all his sexual partners. The frequency of his sexual activities deteriorates from a few times a day – to a few times a year. He prefers intellectual pursuits, sports, politics, volunteering – anything but sex. This kind of narcissist is afraid of encounters with the opposite sex and is even more afraid of emotional involvement or commitment that he fancies himself prone to develop following a sexual encounter. In general, such a narcissist withdraws not only sexually – but also emotionally. If married – he loses all overt interest in his spouse, sexual or otherwise. He confines himself to his world and makes sure that he is sufficiently busy to preclude any interaction with his nearest (and supposedly dearest). He becomes completely immersed in "big projects", lifelong plans, a vision, or a cause – all very rewarding narcissistically and all very demanding and time consuming. He then regards sex as an obligation, a necessity, or a maintenance operation needed to preserve the comfortable human cell that he has constructed (his family or household). He does not enjoy sex and by far prefers to masturbate – or object sex, like going to prostitutes. Actually, he uses his mate or spouse as an "alibi", a shield against the attention of other women, an insurance policy which preserves his virile image while making it socially and morally commendable for him to avoid any intimate or sexual contact with other women. Even while ignoring women around him (a form of aggression) he can feel righteous in saying: "I am loyal to my wife". At the same time, he feels hostility towards her for ostensibly preventing him from freely expressing himself sexually with others, for isolating him from carnal pleasures. The thwarted logic goes like this: "I am married/attached to this woman. Therefore, I am not allowed to be in touch with other women, which might be interpreted as more than casual or businesslike. This is why I refrain from having anything to do with women – because I am loyal, as opposed to most other immoral men. However, I do not like this situation. I envy my free peers. They can have as much sex and romance as they want to – while I am confined to this marriage, chained by my wife, my freedom curbed. I am angry at her and I will punish her by abstaining from having sex with her." He minimises all types of intercourse with his close circle (spouse, children, parents, siblings, very intimate friends): sexual, verbal, or emotional. He limits himself to the rawest exchanges of information and isolates himself socially. This way he insures against a future hurt and avoids the intimacy that he so dreads. But, again, this way he also secures abandonment and the replay of old, unresolved, conflicts. Finally, he really is left alone by everyone, with no Secondary Sources of Supply. In his search for them, he again embarks on ego-mending bouts of sex, followed by the selection of a spouse or a mate (a Secondary Narcissistic Supply Source). Then the cycle re-commence: a sharp drop in sexual activity, emotional remoteness and cruel detachment leading to abandonment.
The second type of narcissist is mostly sexually loyal to his spouse. He alternates between what appears to be hyper-sexuality and a sexuality (really, forcefully repressed sexuality). In the second phase, he feels no sexual urges, bar the most basic. He is, therefore, not compelled to "cheat" upon his mate, betray her, or violate the marital vows. He is much more interested in preventing a worrisome dwindling of the kind of Narcissistic Supply that really matters. Sex, he says to himself, contentedly, is for those who can do no better."
This post is already WAY too long, so I won't bugger it up with any more ideas of my own... but if any of this rings a bell with you, let me know and I'll happily give you tons of info, links and personal experiences with a narcissist.
Take care of yourself and please know that I'm thinking about you today, SB
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