Where I am

[chromosphere]

Well, it has been awhile since I updated my status.

Things with the W have been up and down. I fight a lot with anger and sadness, but there has been some good developments. I had decided to take my C's advice and just accept whatever sexuality my W can give me, with the idea that with time and effort, hopefully she will relax and open up to gradually more and more sexuality. Being able to empathize with difficult personal changes has helped. Unfortunately my W has been bleeding vaginally for almost two months. I pressed and pressed and pressed for her to go to a doctor, and she finally assented. Although it was never stated directly, she hinted that she thought the only reason I pushed was that I wanted sex. That hurt quite a bit, but I swallowed my argumentative side and just kept pushing until she finally made an appointment. The doctor has her on progesterone treatments for now. Because I am unable to get my scheduled vasectomy due to being on high doses of blood thinners for my a-fib, her doctor suggested an IUD. They have new ones that also release hormones so it might solve both problems. I am ok with doing non-IC sex until I get off the blood thinners and have the V, but the W seems adamant about wanting IC (rehashing her POV that manual stimulation is not adult sexual behavior - another POV I need to work on gradually). Anyway, she just started the hormones, and I did notice a bit more "intense" affection earlier this evening. Unfortunately, she is parked in front of the computer right now. I may have to just go over, grab her hand and lead her to the bedroom. But I may wait a day to let the hormones work a little more

The other day we got into another "bad discussion" as she calls them about the state of our R. I told her straight up that I felt our poor affection/SL was a symptom of an unhealthy M. And that many of my efforts were attempts to quell possible sources. For example, stronger boundaries with ILs, insistence that she do activities that "woman" related and not "mommy" related (I have made a deal with her that I get the kids one day a week and she has to do something for herself). I did manage one small victory, she has been doing the "comfortable" clothes thing, one of which was a particularly ugly, but comfortable pair of sandals. I know its not that big a deal overall, but I figured start a "small fight" and there is less chance of it escalating too much (how's that for pop psychology). Well, the other day, after much complaining about how I was being unreasonable about her shoes, she went out and bought some that are much more feminine and enhance her beautiful figure very well. She did whine a bit about being uncomfortable, but I did see her preening quite a bit in them the other day. It is amazing the things that women just do naturally, but forget when the little ones come along. I hope I wasn't being too controlling, but I feel the end result was positive. She has talked more about going clothes shopping.

On a more serious front, later that night while we were in bed getting ready to sleep she was extra snuggly and wanted to talk. She told me that she was scared of what I want in our SL and doesn't know how to get from here to there. She asked if I could give her some concrete baby steps that we could work on, stuff that she feels like she could accomplish. I felt that was a very positive step for us, except I have really no idea of what concrete steps we should take. The first thing that popped into my head was scheduled sex. I also mentioned that I would work hard on not being "pouncing" if she would be more sexually teasing during the day. She sounded doubtful, asking if I really could handle the "come here, come here, get away, get away." I replied that I did not mind at all chasing her so long as there was a realistic chance of success. My problem in the past was since success was so infrequent, I pounced on every opening, which led her to not offer openings, and we got into a vicious circle. I finished telling her that I could make the chase very fun.

We ML that evening, nothing grand but good and emotionally satisfying. We haven't talked more about the scheduling yet, I want to wait and see how the hormone treatments go. And I figure that we can work the teasing in starting with the scheduled sex days with the hope that it will become more natural and comfortable for her on days that we don't have sex scheduled, regardless of whether or not it results in actual sex (I don't actually mind being teased mercilessly, again so long as some day in the near future there will be love making).

In summary, some positive steps. Still in a holding pattern a bit with the bleeding/hormone treatments, but I am hopeful for the future. I have the kids tomorrow, she is going clothes shopping with a friend. We are going to visit my brother this weekend, so there is a another chance to get out of the house and remember there is life out there.

Feel free to offer suggestions on concrete baby steps getting from here to there. What has worked for you? I do have some ideas. I also wonder if this isn't the BEST time to try MC. Isn't that kinda what MC is, step-by-step efforts to improve the M? Seems like if she is willing to do that, having an impartial expert lay out some stuff for us would be more welcome than if it was an "MC or D" type situation. KWIM?

Chrome

[Heywyre]

I would say some definitely baby steps in your R, keep up the good work.

As for:

Isn't that kinda what MC is, step-by-step efforts to improve the M? Seems like if she is willing to do that, having an impartial expert lay out some stuff for us would be more welcome than if it was an "MC or D" type situation. KWIM?

No that isn't what MC is about - they would ask YOU what it is you would like to see change in your R/M. The MC is not there to set out a plan for you, if it was that easy, we would all be in a much better place a whole lot quicker.

[MJontheMend]

I did manage one small victory, she has been doing the "comfortable" clothes thing, one of which was a particularly ugly, but comfortable pair of sandals. I know its not that big a deal overall, but I figured start a "small fight" and there is less chance of it escalating too much (how's that for pop psychology). Well, the other day, after much complaining about how I was being unreasonable about her shoes, she went out and bought some that are much more feminine and enhance her beautiful figure very well. She did whine a bit about being uncomfortable, but I did see her preening quite a bit in them the other day. It is amazing the things that women just do naturally, but forget when the little ones come along. I hope I wasn't being too controlling, but I feel the end result was positive. She has talked more about going clothes shopping.

You know I had to weigh in on this issue - lol. I really think it is a difficult problem in some ways. Let's take an extreme example. Let's say the most sexually attractive outfit I could wear would be 4 inch spike heels, a tight skirt and a silk corset with my hair arranged in lightly tousled curls and my face made-up nicely. What activities can I engage in dressed like this? Can I work in my garden? Move around boxes full of books? Cook a lasagne? Hold a squirmy 30 lb. one-year-old on my hip while I chase a 3-year-old through the aisles of the grocery store? Can I even concentrate on some business paperwork-or will I naturally slip off the heels and wind a pencil into my hair and fidget in my desk chair because the skirt is confining?

Think about eras or social settings in history in which women were generally dressed very feminine much of the time. How did these women spend their days? Doing needlepoint, giving directions to the servants about any manual labor, instructing the nanny about the baby's bath, being helped up into carriages etc. A good part of the reason people dress more unisex these days is that people engage in more unisex activities these days.

OTOH,recently, I was out with a man and I was wearing high wedge heels. We decided to walk along the trail along the edge of a suburban park by the restaurant where we had drinks. I kept losing my footing and he kept having to catch me. I will admit this would have been pretty hot if I had been at all attracted to him (Actually, it was a little hot even though I wasn't attracted to him)but.....

OTOH, I was at my warehouse the other day hauling around boxes of books in the humid heat. I stopped at a drugstore on the way home to get a pop and a few other items. Of course, I run into a guy from Match who lives in my zipcode with whom I had exchanged light e-mail banter and innuendo. Did looking like a sweaty slob make me feel very sexy? No, but I can't live my life avoiding exchanging sexual innuendo with men who live in my zip-code and/or doing work that makes me look like cr*p so...


Okay, I do have a point which is relevant for you. It is true that looking sexy, feminine will make you feel more sexy, feminine and I know that you are just trying to promote that dynamic with your W for good reasons. However, there is a part of a woman's sex drive that has to do with having zest and drive for other things in life and sometimes the costume for those other things isn't conventionally sexy or feminine. So, if her ugly shoes are the shoes that she wears out in the garden or at the potter's wheel or playing softball or writing essays or while engaged in any activity where she spends time relaxing and being creative and being a person who is not necessarily either a Mommy or a wife then interfering with her ugly shoes will be interfering with her ability to have a healthy selfish sex drive.

[RedHeadWife]

Hey Chrome, I had a lot of bleeding too and finally instead of getting a complete hysterectomy (I'm only 35), my OB did a something or other "ablation" where they burn the cervix and it's helped a lot. Just another suggestion/something that worked.

(Bear w/ me if I'm repeating myself - I'm honestly just trying to help/give insight from the W POV)

I honestly don't know what to tell you about the whole SL thing. I don't know how old you guys are or how old the kids are, but I know that I just completely lost any desire for sex for YEARS. I could just live w/o it. I just was ready to go to SLEEP when the boys were finally in bed. I took my stress from daily life out on H and we pretty much had no sort of adult R any more by the time he dropped the D bomb. Of course, this happened gradually over time, but it got pretty bad.

I was just "going through the motions" of life I guess. Until I actually started putting forth the effort to make my marriage good again and have an actual adult relationship w/ H, I didn't really know what I/we were missing.

I was working full-time and taking care of the boys and that's what I guess I thought I was supposed to be doing. I had no clue how much effort it really takes to keep the intimacy and closeness w/ H and how much it actually enhances EVERYTHING, including my dealings w/ the boys, etc., until I started doing what I needed to do and got that back w/ H.

The problem is, I don't know how to get your W to realize all of this and to really "get down to business" and get your M/R back where it needs to be. All I can say is that she doesn't know how much she is missing by letting all of that go by the wayside and she won't know that until you guys get it back. But the "getting there" takes effort and I don't know how to get it through to these "mommies" that they are missing so much and the effort is truly worth it. That, even though we feel we're so very tired from doing everything else, when you actually start doing things to improve your R, you realize you really do have the time and energy to put into it and it helps in all aspects of your life.

I know I haven't really given you any ideas on how to fix things, but maybe how I was feeling/acting/living is what she is doing too. Maybe you can talk to your C and see if they have ideas besides "hard core" hitting over the head w/ the D bomb or something along those lines that you can do to make W realize what needs to be done.

Or, as much as it sucks, you can just continue to work on you and showing her how much you love her, etc. and she will come around. I just don't know. My H felt like he had communicated how unhappy he was to me, but I guess I just didn't get it. I also never understood (until after the D bomb and it happened to me) the rejection part of not wanting to have sex w/ H.

I'm kind of finding and wondering if this is "just the way it is" (and maybe others can agree or set me straight) that it seems that one person is usually the one that puts in the effort in an R or maybe we all just take turns and after the D bomb, it's been my turn b/c even though things are "good" w/ H right now, I still feel like I'm doing the work to keep things good after I did the work to get things back to good. I don't necessarily feel like H is putting in any effort to make me feel loved, special or help me deal w/ what has happened to us SO I JUST PRESS ON and do what I need to do to keep us good and be happy that we are where we are. I can't allow myself to get resentful, etc. or where will my M end up?? And am I willing to go there? Do I want to be w/ my H and, if so, what will I do to keep him happy and therefore hopefully by keeping him happy, the R/M is happy and my happiness will follow?

I think that's maybe a trend around here -- we are all the ones who are willing to work to keep our M's alive and we have to accept that maybe that's just the way it's going to be. If we can get to the point where we are happy with ourselves, with our efforts to keep our M going well, then we can just be happy period whether we feel our H/W is doing their "part" or not.

I don't know, I know I'm rambling, who knows what I know I'm just trying to help a little and let you know you aren't alone feeling the way you are. We just all have to keep plugging along and stay positive and hope in the end (like COG) that our efforts are realized at some point.

[chromosphere]

Heywyre,

No that isn't what MC is about - they would ask YOU what it is you would like to see change in your R/M. The MC is not there to set out a plan for you, if it was that easy, we would all be in a much better place a whole lot quicker.

I understand. I was thinking though that if we did go to an MC with the notion that we would like to improve SL, affection, intimacy, etc. (we could discuss specifics) that he/she could help develop the baby-steps plan that COULD get us there. KWIM?

Chrome

[chromosphere]

MJ

I hear you. Believe me, I was not and never will advocate her wearing "sexy" clothing while working in the garden, or insist on her gussying up while just around the house after a long day chasing kids. I have put off buying her anklets for gifts because it isn't a good idea to have jewelry in reach of little hands, kwim? I don't want a Victorian-era doll, and frankly there is no way she would go for that. I VERY MUCH appreciate a woman who doesn't mind getting dirty and sweaty, and her looking that way is not a turn-off for me.

This was purely an effort on my part to try to help her feel better about herself. I was trying to be more of a "friend" in this case (although I may have not been going about it the right way, and I don't mind if people tell me my MO sucked). You know, everyone, I think, would like a friend that would honestly tell you if your new hairstyle wasn't the best. I know I appreciate my W stopping me if I'm leaving for work with pants or shirt or tie that don't match color-wise.

Let me relate an incident that perhaps clarifies. For one of our date nights, I came home from work (it was summer so I didn't have to be dressed up), played with the kids a bit, helped the baby sitter get settled, then went and changed into some nice clothes. Since we were going to a movie, timing was a factor. She saw me, and was in a t-shirt that she was wearing all day, jeans shorts, and those ugly shoes. SHE then started loudly complaining about me getting dressed up while she wasn't. And there was the occasional comment she threw out about feeling self-conscious.

My point is that if she was comfortable sexually with herself and with her "womanhood", the last thing on my mind would be her shoes. But it is clear that she has forgotten about how it used to make her feel nice to get dressed up in favor of extreme practicality. I don't mind if she spends extra money to look nice. I think she is gorgeous no matter what, be SHE doesn't. We all know a woman's sexiness has to do more with her internal feelings rather than what she wears. But for those women who have forgotten their sexiness, getting dressed up can help remind them.

I think I'm starting to talk in circles so I'll stop there. I'm sure how I went about this could have been improved. But I want to improve our M, so I figured helping her remember that she was a woman and not just a mother could only help in the long run.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

CM

You're not rambling. I understand exactly what you are saying. Yes, there will be many times in many R's that one person is the more "unhappy" one and will have to suck it up to be the one to do the hard work to try to change things. I don't mind being a leader in our R, in fact I think it is appropriate. But it is difficult, given that my personality prior to this was definitely NOT leader-like. I have and still am going through major personal changes at the same time I am trying to fix my M. Just about every day I do the same as Choc and escape to the bathroom to cry about things (not very manly of me, but *shrug*) so that I can put forth a more confident face to my W. Sometimes it seeps out, the sadness and anger, but I have been getting better and better at not letting it affect what I have to say, or what I have to do.

I think you have made some AWESOME personal strides and I hope that your H knows, sees, and appreciates them. I think they bode well for your future no matter what. I know improving my self-esteem (as roller coaster-y as it is) is what I needed to do regardless of the end-result of my M.

Feel free to "ramble" as much as you want.

Chrome

[AmbientCoast]

Hey CM - yep, keep rambling... y'know, reading the W's POV helps me a lot. What you're describing happened to you sounds a lot like what my W is going through.

You give me hope.

Keep writing.

AC

[MJontheMend]

My point is that if she was comfortable sexually with herself and with her "womanhood", the last thing on my mind would be her shoes. But it is clear that she has forgotten about how it used to make her feel nice to get dressed up in favor of extreme practicality. I don't mind if she spends extra money to look nice. I think she is gorgeous no matter what, be SHE doesn't. We all know a woman's sexiness has to do more with her internal feelings rather than what she wears. But for those women who have forgotten their sexiness, getting dressed up can help remind them.

I agree with you. After the incident where I ran into the Match guy looking like a sweatball, I was seriously disappointed in myself, not because I put myself in awkward positions by lobbing sexual innuendo at men I don't know well, not because I was out in public looking like cr*p but because I'm not cool enough to still be sexy in that situation. I think I should have been able to act like I was wearing something really sexy and project my inner sex fiend. I believe my sexuality should transcend my ugly shoes. I would like to be so hot that I burn away every little scrap of fig-leaved self-consciousness neuroticism and expose myself in full naked self-aware eroticism.

[Crazy Eddie]

Men and women can sometimes drastically change their mindset just by changing their clothes. That's the idea behind uniforms and dress codes, after all. Of course it's not foolproof.

I noticed recently that a lot of the cute flats and sandals that used to be everywhere are really hard to find on the shelves these days. Now it's almost all high heels and ridiculously high heels, which means there's not really anything sexy that's also suitable for everyday wear, at least not where I live.

(My perception of sexy shoes may be a bit skewed. From my POV, the sexiest thing a woman can wear on her feet is nothing.)

Which brings us back to being able to get into a sexy mindset without sexy clothes. It may be just a matter of wearing the sexy clothes every once in a while and then picturing yourself in them at other times. There's certainly a refreshing lack of timidity and insecurity involved when a woman pulls it off just right. And I've found that when either partner manages to get into the right mindset, the other partner finds it much easier to follow along.