Give up?

[still hoping]

I posted in newcomers but in case any veterans living through H's MLC don't go there, thought I'd post here as well. H is definitely having MLC. I've decided to give up already on my M because I see absolutely no hope anymore. Anyone with the time to read through my posts, can you please read and give your advice? I have 2 young boys and am planning to move to another country soon. Want to be absolutely sure I'm doing the right thing before I leave forever.

There is a link to my first post in this post: Last post

Just to add some more info - all that he has done is unbelievably out of character for him. All of our friends have said that he is the last person they thought would ever do something like this.

As for timelines, A has now been going on since at least Nov 2005 (almost 18 months). In first post, I mentioned he went to her country on a business trip - found out it had nothing to do with business and he went to see her, supposedly to break it off but ended up falling even deeper for her and sleeping with her, although he swore on his mom he didn't. Actually, most of my first post is probably completely wrong as everything he tells me is a lie.

One slight positive is that he told friend several months ago that he can't say he'll never get back together with me, but says he just needs space to see if that's what he wants. But from all that I've learned and after so many lies, I am ready to close the door.

Sorry this is so incoherent and my posts are all over the place. Have everyone pushing me to file for D, which is what I want to do (or more likely will tell him to file). Just need you guys to help me from the DB perspective.

Thanks so much. Really desperate for good advice. Feels like I'm living last year's bomb all over again.

[Rollercoasterider]

I've decided to give up already on my M because I see absolutely no hope anymore. Anyone with the time to read through my posts, can you please read and give your advice?
... Have everyone pushing me to file for D, which is what I want to do (or more likely will tell him to file). Just need you guys to help me from the DB perspective.

Um, pardon,. I'm really not trying to be rude or anything. But if you WANT a divorce come out and stop trying to say you are seel=king advice from a DB perspective--you know what DB standds for right?

If you want a divorce fine. If you WANT it why wait? Why be passive agressive and tell him to file. Isn't that what the MLCers do to us?

Get what you WANT. Don't wait for someone to give it to you.

So you found out and met the OW. And by the way, woman who F*&ck married men are in no way HIGH CLASS HGOOKERS. They are the lowest of the low.

Now I hit the wrong button and this sent--editing now. I have more to say but will submit and then continue.

RCR

[Rollercoasterider]

Now if you are seeking Hope...we can offer that. What is it you really want?

Think Deeply about that.
You have a possibly MLC spouses--though he is young, but the signs are there. MLCers are INSANE...and though it lastsa a few years, it is still temporary. They come out of the crisis looking for their old life...that is their real wife.

Sometimes they find her waiting, sometimes they find her without forgiveness, sometimes they find her with a new husband. And then there are those who are afraid of what they have done that want to find her, but don't go looking.

As for an OW...you've described the TYPICAL OW. Ugly and jealous. It is the perfect combination for an affair...cause it won't last. She is dating a married man...thus he is untrustworthy. The only sort of person who would date a married man (knowing he is married) is one who is jealous and will not trust...often because she has a pattern of dating marrieds.

So step back and let her be jealous.

As for telling hi you know....there are different thoughts on that. It's been a long time for you and he's been out of the home, my advice is yeah...tell him.

He will deny. You don't have to tell him you met her...but you can and then tell him she's a great catch--(sarcasm). But what I would do is tell him you know he's having an afair because it is obvious, and he's flaunted her to everyone. You know and he can deny it all he likes but deny it silently cause you know the truth and you aren't stupid.

Then stop listening to his words--not really, but make it clear that what he is saying isn't being paid attention to since his mouth is moving---thus he's lieing.

If he needs you can point out why it is so obvious that he's having an affair. Sweetheart thought he wasn't being obvious...but you don't drive the OW's stripper daughter's truck without some sort of inappropriate relationship. You don't bring the OW to your parents...you don't bring a femal friend to meet your parents when you are married. You especially don't bring a female friend who claims to be your fiancee to your parents when you are trying to deny a relationship to your wife.

You don't tell you wife there is an OW and that when the relationship goes physical she will know because you will stop being physical with her. You don't tell you wife that you HAVE to file for divorce because the OW will probably require the paperwork as proof before sex--though OWs are easy and they won't require proof....though they will push him to divorce.

And you said your friends have known and met her--even hung out with the two of them and were 'in on it.' Are you not planning to tell him that your friends outed her? Cause those aren't your friends. Friends don't help people cheat.

So he hasn't filed...has he stated that he wants a divorce...and then has he given reasons why he isn't acting on that? Many don't. But if he doesn't consider himself married--which is common for these nutcases--then use that to point out how stupid it is to deny the obvious affair.
And if you are looking for a crisis trigger...well lots of guiys go nuts with the a new baby--even when it's not the first child.

So what do you really want? If you want DB advice about divorcing...at least be more specific...how to keep it cordial or what to do so your children are protected...thus using DB techniques to keep him pleasant.

But right now you aren't being clear. You want a divorce but you don't want to be the initiator...you don't want to be seen as the bad guy. Well, hey don't worry about that one...ALL your friends know about the ugly whore. You aren't the bad guy. You are protecting yourself and your kids.

Help us so we can help you in the best way that you WANT.

HUGS,
RCR

[still hoping]

Thanks RCR. Lots of thought-provoking questions - just what I needed. So lost right now and feel totally stoned. Even smashed in to a pole today while reversing my car.

Ok, I'll try to go in order:

Re: Being passive-aggressive and wanting a D but asking him to file.
I guess the main reason for this, which I realize is not the best reason, is that by me filing, I'm giving OW what she wants. I know that I can't base my actions on their reactions, but why should I make her happy? I feel that if H has decided he doesn't want to come home, then HE should be the one to file - it's the right thing for him to do in this situation, rather than keeping me waiting around. Plus he's very irresponsible and I want him to actually be the one to take action and have to go through the process. Don't want to make it so simple for him that all he has to do is sign the papers I hand to him. I also think that he's waiting for me to file so that he can say that I'm the one who wanted the D, thus feeling less guilty that this is all his fault. And finally, he doesn't like being told what to do, so I guess I want OW to keep pushing him for a D to piss him off. Overall, I think maybe at this point the legality of the D is not a big deal to me. I just don't want to have a R with him anymore.

Re: What do I really want? Hope?
Yeah, maybe that is why I'm still posting here. All the revelations are pretty fresh so maybe with time, I will still change my mind??? Just about everyone I know is pro-D. Most haven't been through this and certainly don't know about DB. Guess I want you all to play devil's advocate for me and because this is the last step for me, I want help so that I am absolutely sure that leaving is the right thing to do. I know that it is only my decision to make - just have a one track mind right now to bolt out of this place ASAP and everyone is supporting me to do so. I feel totally justified in getting a D at this point, but if anyone else sees things differently, that's what I'm looking for (btw, I'm not religious, so basing your reasons on that won't help me).

None of my friends have experience with MLC either. I guess maybe I am still hoping that he will someday come out of this, not necessarily to come back to me, but to be the person he used to be and so that I can respect him again (I still love and care about him - he's my family and I need him for to be a good person because he's the father of my children, M or not). This is what's holding me back from being a total b!tch and making this a nasty ending. So I guess that I am also looking for some success stories from you guys that MLCers do make it out of the tunnel eventually. I would love for him to come back if/when he ever does make it out and apologize and want me back, even though it will be too late for me. I don't want to give up on him (even though I'm giving up on our M). Does that make any sense?

Re: Typical OW being ugly and jealous
I was definitely relieved to see/hear that she is both. Ok, so she's not hideous, but she certainly isn't pretty, like H described (he usually has really high standards, so I was expecting gorgeous). I always tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it. In this case, I do really believe that she is a nice girl. Apparently she was adament about not having a R with him because he was M w/kids. I have no idea what H told her to convince her otherwise. The other thing is that she comes from a third world country and is now here living the good life with him (and my H really knows how to enjoy life). Not sure if she'll ever let go of H because of that. I would love to have her reveal her ugly jealousy monster to him, which is another reason I don't want to be nasty. Maybe she'll behave the opposite of how I am behaving?

Re: Telling H I know about her/her background
I actually really enjoyed knowing that he was freaking out wondering if/what Friend was talking to me about. So I think I've decided that for now, it's best to not say directly to him that I know anything. Would rather have him feel uncomfortable and look over his shoulder when he's out than be really open about going out with her. From what Friend says, he's not affectionate with her in public and has just recently started bringing him out with her. I'm sure that this will bother her eventually too. Once he knows for sure that I know, he won't care about anything. The fact that she was a skanky "hostess" is what he is most afraid of me discovering, I think. Friend is going to tell him he must be really stupid to think that I am that stupid not to know about her being OW. So it'll still be somewhat of a mystery how much I know. Although, they say illicit affairs last longer, so maybe by really letting him go public, it would end sooner. It's already been around 18 months, on and off.

He knows that I met her because he's the one who introduced us with MAJOR RELUCTANCE and even gave gave her another name (he told me she manages the restaurant and said OW never came back). Friend told me that H ran in to H's sister when he was with OW and didn't intorduce them. He's definitely not trying to flaunt her in front of his family. Another plus, because what kind of person would put up with that? Nevermind, I know - skanky OWs of course! I really think he's ashamed of her background - which is pretty important to his family. So what does all that mean?

Re: Friends knowing about her and meeting her
These are really all of his guy friends who I've known for a long time. We are (I should say were) a pretty close group - all the guys were best friends and all of us wives are best friends. The other Friend I mentioned is an older bachelor - divorced for 15 years who screws around with ALL kinds of girls and isn't afraid to tell people about it. The other "friends" are all married. Whether or not they tried to stop H from cheating is uncertain. Anyway, H doesn't listen to anyone. Always has done whatever he wants and you can't tell him otherwise or else it will make him do it more. Friend who outed him told me in strict confidentiality. Unless I tell Friend in advance that I'm going to tell H who told me, I won't let him know how I found out, if I tell him anything at all.

Re: Not filing
He hasn't given any reasons for not doing so. In fact, we haven't had any R talk WHATSOEVER since Jan. The only thing that I can think of is that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants space to have R with OW and live his life the way he's living it, and have the option to come back to me when he's ready in a few years, knowing it may be too late. He doesn't want to burn his bridges. Friend originally wanted to talk to me to tell me that H was never coming back to me and so I should move on. But after finding out H hasn't acted on D and hasn't even told me about OW, he's really baffled. That's when he remembered that H did say a few months ago that he can't say he will never be with me again.

Re: What advice I want
At this point, any! But if I have to be specific, I guess it would be advice on how to stay calm and rational so that I don't become the nasty ex-wife. Also advice on what to tell S5 and how to handle him being with H. I don't think he's met OW, but I'm not positive. If OW is out in the open, can I ask H to not have her be around when he has boys? Or will that just piss him off and make him do the opposite? Knowing my H, that's what would happen... If I decide to leave, how do I handle that sitch? Plan right now is to not tell H until the last minute - and to let his whole family know that I was planning to stay, but now that I've found out what kind of work OW used to do, I can't let my kids be around her.

Still don't know if any of that is clear. Head is still spinning and heart is still racing.

[Rollercoasterider]

Being passive-aggressive and wanting a D but asking him to file.

by me filing, I'm giving OW what she wants

OW's pressure for divorce...but really she's shown it won't stop her...she's alredy having sex with him.

So you are giving her what she wants by giving up...whether you file or not. Is that what you want?
Of course he's waiting for you to file...then you are the bad guy.

Do what you want because you want it.

What I amr eading is that you don't wnat it...you aren't certain. If youwanted it, you wouldn't care a Rat's a$$ about the OW...cause she's certainly not winning if the prize is a broken MLCer. It won't last and she's getting the worst part of him...let her have that part.

What do I really want? Hope?

Just about everyone I know is pro-D.

Just about everyone most of us posters know is Pro-D. And yet this is your life; your choice. They can take a hike...be my friend, but I'll do what I want with my life.

Guess I want you all to play devil's advocate
...btw, I'm not religious

Okay...I just found that funny.

I'm a Stander. And though I am religious, that is only one part of my reason for Standing...Love and my vows/promise are greater. But I can play your devil's advocate because I don't believe in divorce--I believe it is unnecessary in almost all cases (almost, not all). I also believe that unnecessary ornot it will still happen to many because one or both parties are unwilling to do the work or to even care.

So given my attitude, I always believe there is Hope.

am still hoping that he will someday come out of this, not necessarily to come back to me, but to be the person he used to be and so that I can respect him again (I still love and care about him - he's my family and I need him for to be a good person because he's the father of my children, M or not).

So what is your breaking point. and what I mean by that is what is your future breaking point. Maybe you do want to give up now. But if this guy comes out of this crisis better, why not have a relationship with him? You may find some other awesome guy...and that guy may have done the same thing to his (ex)wife.

So is it the history? You will be unable to get past that it was you and not some other woman that was hurt by this specific individual? You know him (the true him). You have children and a history. You know his idisyncracies. Think about the risk of the unknown that anyone else will bring. You may still be better off rebuilding (someday not now) with what you know thatn from scratch. And think about how much better that would be for your children. I'm a step daughter an a step sister. It's not easy. It's not best.

Typical OW being ugly and jealous

I do really believe that she is a nice girl. Apparently she was adament about not having a R with him because he was M w/kids. I have no idea what H told her to convince her otherwise.

Boy did I hear that one. And like you, I give the benefit...
I do not believe Sweetheart's OW is a bad person. I do however KNOW that she planned this and manipulated him--she planned to undermine our relationship before Bomb Drop. She told him he would need a lot of time before he dated...and she would wait.

Um...let's see
Move out: 3 May 2005
Banged Sweetheart, cohabitation: 29 May 2005
Divorce filed: 9 June 2005

Yeah, she really waited. And by the way...where is Sweetheart? Probably home working in the yard and hanging out with the poochies. Why? Cause he's home, not just visiting.

So I guess that I am also looking for some success stories from you guys that MLCers do make it out of the tunnel eventually.

They come out. But you won't se a lot of that here because it takes so VEEEERY LONG that most stop Standing, and those whose MLCers do return post less because they are focusing on their marriage.

I think ImLin's is one of the greater stories out there because she had a Dropout...very little contact. So look up her posts. I think she was posting on Butterflymom's thread over the weekend.

The hard thing to do...but very possible...is to forget about the OW. Just let it go...cause she won't last. Jealousy gets worse...especially with a married man. And yes, the more you are calm and nice the more bitchy she may become. Take back your power andbe confident...OW's then worry.

""Hey am I missing something, why's she so happy? Is he going abck to her? Are they sneaking around?" OR internally She seems nice/strong/independent/successful. She is better than me. He must like her more--why wound't he... And so she lets out the Bitch.

Not filing

The only thing that I can think of is that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants space to have R with OW and live his life the way he's living it, and have the option to come back to me when he's ready in a few years, knowing it may be too late. He doesn't want to burn his bridges.

EXACTLY

But if he is MLC, this is part of what is necessary for his growth. It mayb seem like he's cake-eating and being selfish--and he is.

But this man is broken and you cannot fix him. He must fix himself, and that is done by going through the MLC stages. The repair work comes in at Liminal Depression where he must face his demons--those fragments of himself that he has repressed and denied. Why not go straight to that stage...well, have you ever expereinced Rock Bottom Depression? It SUX. It is complete hopelessness. It's freaky. So they avoid. Replay, the affair, acting younger, wilder etc are all ways they are self-medicating to avoiud the Depression that looms.

He will get through. But you need to step aside. That doesn'e mean file. But it means go on with your own life and take care of those babies. Once in this risis it cannot be avoided--he must go through, not get over.

The OW often prolongs the crisis...and yet is a necessary part of the process. I know it's tough to watch when we feel he could get through this if she would stop clinging to him and hilding him stuck in the tunnel. But he must work through on his own. Let her be the bad guy who clings. You get to be the safe place where he can come. No judging, and no doormat either. Be firm and maintain boundaries. Just like with kids...you love them but there are rules. Show him that you are strong and won't be pushed around...and through all his button pushing you will love and forgive him. It's a hard job--Superwoman.

What advice I want
Well, Sweetheart and I don't have kids, so I'm not the one for that one. Go visiit Lisset, MrsH, Myturnnow, Laughing, Cinderellaman...and probably most of the posters. They can tell you the different ways their MLCers are dealing with this and the kids. Some keep the Ow awawy without argument, while others live with the OW and the kids visit on weekends.

Firm rules int hsi regard work with some and not others. Each is different. Try the no OW contact, but it may not work.

HUGS,
RCR

[still hoping]

Thanks again RCR. You've given me a lot to think about.

I am actually feeling really good today - so good, that I'm questioning whether I'm psychotic! Haven't been able to stop smiling all day long. Does this mean I have a major crash coming? Anyway, I'm enjoying this while it lasts - plus it's my birthday and I find it really symbolic to start the year off feeling so good and happy.

The trigger was talking to another friend of ours (male friend I know through H). I asked him what he thought of OW and he said he didn't. Actually can't even stand being around her so doesn't see H much anymore. He said there are a group of them, including my BIL (H's older brother) that absolutely HATE OW and don't give her the time of day - basically treat her like the skank that she is. BIL told her to her face "F*ck you - you broke up my family" and she sat there and didn't say anything back. They treat her like dirt and she takes it. And what's even funnier is that H doesn't stand up for her! So very unlike him. He used to be one of those who would do anything to stand up for his woman's honor. Also found out that when MIL went to H's restaurant, OW had to hide in the kitchen the entire time MIL was there! How degrading for her, yet she takes it! All of this along with seeing how not pretty she is has me on a huge high for the moment. Major confidence booster for me.

Something has clicked in my head that all of this is not about me. I've stopped taking it personally and it feels so great to let it go. All of the things I've worried about in the past seem so trivial now. I know that H has fallen off his rocker. And I genuinely hope that he will make it out of this crisis. I am committed to being there for him as a friend, but for now, I am closing the door on our M. That doesn't mean that I will never be with him again. It's just that so much damage has been done and he would have to be willing to admit and accept his actions and really work at fixing things for me to even consider taking him back. I do still believe that we would be better off working things out, especially because we have kids. But like you said, if the other party isn't willing to work or simply doesn't care, then I'm ok with D.

So my decision for now is to stay put, keep living my life, keep being friendly to him. And it's for me, but also because I'm not going to let her win. I'm stronger than her. Even if I don't get him in the end, she can't have him. Feel like I'm protecting him like a big sister would in this respect.

I hope that I've successfully detached at this point. I actually feel really sorry for H now despite all that he's put me through. I really think he's gone insane. As for OW, what you said about her getting the broken H is so true and really changed my view of their R. My mom asked me why I still keep pictures of H up and I told her because that's a different person in the picture, not the monster he is now. So yeah, she can have him. And if and when the real H ever surfaces, he will not choose to be with her. Whether he tries to come back to me is no longer an issue for me. Like you said, if he does come out better and does all the things I mentioned, then certainly, I would consider having a relationship with him again. Just saying it's gonna take a lot of work on his part. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

OW is surprisingly not an issue either - mostly because of all that I've learned about her. I've assumed all along that she was here and yes it's different now that it's confirmed, but all along I have wanted him back. The reason I no longer want him (the person he is now) is because of all the lies and the extent of what he has done. I was so naive to believe all the stories he told me.

As for OW meeting kids, friend I spoke to today thinks they've never met. Seems to think that H told her to stay away from his kids. Not clear on why he thinks that - will have to get more answers in time. Personally, I think it's because H doesn't like his two lives crossing over. It's too much for him to handle. But who knows.

Your H's MLC sounds like quite a journey too. How long have you been married? and how long has your H been in MLC-land? He's still living at home?

Will read up on the other posts you mentioned when I have the time. Thank you so much for your help. Getting thoughts and ideas down in black and white helps organize my thoughts. I really feel like I've reached another level of clarity and just hope that I can continue on this path.

[Rollercoasterider]

How long have you been married? and how long has your H been in MLC-land? He's still living at home?

Began Dating: September 1994
Moved in together: September 1995
Married: August 1998
Bomb Drop: March 20 2005.

No, Sweetheart is not STILL living at home. Sweetheart lived with the OW and has come and gone 6X--breaking up with same OW each time. He last broke up with the OW (and moved home) January 6 2007.

[still hoping]

RCR, I can't tell you how much you've helped me through these past few days. Thank you for that. You don't mess around and you get straight to the point. Really helped me figure out what it is I want by making me think everything through.

My decision:
I've decided to give up on my marriage for now, BUT I am not giving up on H as a person. I do not want to be married to the person he is now because of all the lies he has told and the incredible financial and emotional messes he has made without realizing them. I set my boundaries and he stepped over them. I do understand that he is going through MLC and doesn't mean to hurt me because he is only thinking of himself and is simply insane. OW is no longer an issue to me, but a very important part of helping him through his MLC. His MLC will take a long time and I will be there for him as a friend, if he needs me. He's my family and I love him as such. Should the "real" H ever surface as a better man and want to come home, I will still consider it.

Just needed to get that down so I remember when I'm reaching a low point, which I know will be again. But for now, I can see clearly again.