M in most societies is certainly not about romantic sexual love Cemar. It's about creating a family, raising children...the basis of all communities. Monogamy in a M is not "normal" either Cemar. What I mean is that your own feelings are legitimate. We are biologically programmed to desire, to have sex with other people, especially men. That's just evolution, carry on the species. And it's dammmmm hard to fight biology. Every person on these boards in M crisis is probably dealing with some aspects of this "nature" of ours. Those chemicals of desire you get from another person can be as bad as heroine. Hard to break away from those drives. LFL
You're a religious man right? Refer back to your bible, was marriage about "love" back then? No,it was about many other things. It's been about bartering, creating societal bonds, creating alliances, social standing, maintaing family lines....often it's been about many things that never included "love" between the husband and wife themselves.
Still today in many societies marriages are arranged, they aren't about love. What you are looking for is "romantic love", the love they literally play out in romance novels (which BTW I read and get a kick out of, I find them funny!). Most of the things from your list would fit into a romance novel type of "love". Ever notice, they never show you the couple in a romance novel 5-10-20 years down the road? Nope, they never do...it's always just the honeymoon phase. Romantic love isn't sustainable 24/7.
For me, my marriage is a partnership. Yes, I love my H and he loves me no doubt about that for me....but we have our differences, some of those differences will always remain too, some will change, some may end up coming together at some point. However, I made a vow to stick by him through better or worse, I made a vow to stick things out with him...and that's what I intend to do...it's part of our marital contract for me. We don't have a romantic love, but we do have an enduring love....and the temperature of that love will fluxuate throughout the years. It makes me happy to see my H happy, and it breaks my heart to see him hurt too....but do I constantly want to jump his bones and have sex? No, and I'm the HD partner. Do I always feel like a sexual goddess and am I comfortable with my body...ummm nope, but I'm HD. Do I expect him to reflect back to me the man I think he should be? No, because then he's not being true to himself. I gave up on what I thought my expectations of our marriage should be quite some time back....ever since, we have both been tons happier, things have relaxed, and low and behold....they've vastly improved too.
Just a quick comment on this thread….. I think the latest few posts are moving in the wrong direction. The issue is not to debate CeMar on what expectations he should have of a marriage. If he thinks his wife should stand on her head each day for 10 minutes, than that is ok. The task for him is how to get her to agree to that? What is he willing to do to entice her to do this? What trade off is she willing to take in order to do this.
If CeMar wants his version of desire from his W, then fine. However I do believe there is merit in the criticism of his list of desire, because he may be setting the bar so unrealistically high that his W, nor any other woman, will reach for it. But he might try to get of the things meet.
What CeMar has not ever answered, even up to now, is what he has done to entice his W to meet his definition of desire. That includes positive and negative reinforcement. What is his carrot and stick?
CeMar, why should your W desire you as you want, besides that fact that you just think she should. What is her incentive? Why do you think that just because you read something in the Bible, or see comments on this board, that your W should desire you as you want? What have you offered her to get her moving in the right direction, even if it’s one little step? What are you willing to offer for trade?
How is it that it is moving in the wrong direction? People are merely answering CeMar's question as to whether or not HD women think his list is unreasonable (which I absolutely believe it is) and what the point of marriage is (he's getting honest responses)...he asked the questions. He is directing the flow of his thread.
Probably another avoidance tactic to keep from answering direct questions...but his direction nonetheless. The way I see it is it's not our responsibility to keep the focus on something that he directs the focus off of...he gets the help he asks for. JMPO though.
The only thing I meant was that I thought people were trying to tell him what he wants. I agree that some things one his list are a little too much and as a whole, I doubt CeMar has any chance of getting his list met, but it might also be possible that some man could get those wishes met. If so, that man has to be putting out a lot of effort to get his woman to desire him as CeMar states. So if CeMar is willing to rise to such a high level to meet the needs of his W, then maybe it is possible. That just means he is really going to have to step up his end of the deal to reach such high goals, so if that is what he wants, then I think it is fine. We all want what we want.
If cemar comes back with anything but a "yes, but", further platitudes, and reasons why "desire" is important .... and actually details a specific talk he's had with his wife on the subject, and her response I shall eat my hat.
Not that it's impossible. I've eaten a hat before. I never thought he'd respond at all. But I'd eat another hat.
I'm not meaning to imply that he shouldn't want what he wants...not at all. All I'm saying is he has quite a bit of control over the direction of his thread...so I took some exception with your comment about it taking a wrong direction since he led it in that direction.
I also agree that there probably are some men out there that could obtain his list, but as you said, they'd be putting in some exceptional effort to have that list fulfilled...and that would entail A LOT work internally on themselves to make them that completely irresistable to a woman. The ONE man I've ever had that experience with was my late fiancee...and a large part of that irresistability I felt towards him was that he wanted me as a part of his life but he didn't need me as a part of it. He didn't rely on me to ensure the fullness and happiness of his life...I was just the cherry on top if-you-will. He chose to share it with me, he didn't need me to make it that way.
ABSOLUTELY!!! It is a major turn-off to have that much responsibility for someone else's happiness. To have to live your life to someone else's exact specifications is unhealthy and exhausting. BTDT.
Bear
The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
--Marcel Proust
{{{Choc}}} I know you're in a tough place right now but I really admire your strength AND your ability to reach out and ask for support/advice and then use it. I have a lot of respect for people who can do that since it's one of my weak points. I, along with many others, are out here pulling for you.
Cemar, What are your thoughts on the responses so far? Would it make you see things any differently if you thought that perhaps you had some unreasonable expectations?
Bear
The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
--Marcel Proust
