I've got to get everyone's b-fast ready then get to work, but I thought I'd share at least the end part of a (what I feel is a) breakthrough convo last night. I'll flesh out the other parts of the convo later. I do feel like it was good because I understand her motives better, but I now feel even more stuck than ever. I have NO idea how to proceed.
First, the day before I had casually mentioned something about sex and it started a short convo that led to her saying "I know I need to 'participate', but don't expect me to be enthusiastic about it." As you can imagine, that didn't set well with me. I told her that POV was hurtful to me and I feel rejected by it. The convo was interrupted so we continued yesterday. Some of the comments she made included "the thought of having guests over at the house makes me sick to my stomach", "I'm just not the kind of person who likes to go out", "I'm not a fun-loving, party-type girl", "do you expect me to suddenly change and start liking to go out and have your kind of fun." As you can see, the convo was mostly about us doing things together. It turned when I said that I do adore her and want her to be happy, but that there are some things that need to change in our R so that I can be happy too. She said "you don't adore me, you adore some vision of who you want me to be." I got a little upset by that and started listing the things I had done for her, sacrifices I had willingly made because I thought it would make for a happy life for her, things I had planned for us to do together in the past and in the future, including a vacation for just the two of us this August where we are going to Nashville to see her favorite Food Network cook Alton Brown and even go to a meet-and-greet dinner aftewrwards, get a signed chef's apron, etc. She got really tearful then and said that we could cancel the trip if I wanted to, to which I responded that I wanted to go spend this time with her. Then she said ...
"You just want to change me into her."
She cried a lot after saying that, and after she settled down a bit, I told her that was not true, that I had done a lot of soul searching to try to find out what I really do want in a M. That the things I want are not based on anyone but me, that they are things that lots of people want.
But I am stuck. I really do not know what to do next. I feel like I am walking a razor's edge here between trying to be sensitive to her healing post-EA, and trying to let her know how I feel. I cried a lot myself last night because I wish so hard I could go back two years and find a board like this or a C and tried to work on things the right way. I have a feeling things would probably still be not so good right now, but I wouldn't have this extra problem to deal with. But of course I cannot. I feel helpless to deal with this.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I can understand you dilemma and concern that you have hurt your wife, and that you do want her to be happy, but IMO, your comments were just more placating. You are working hard to change who you are. The person you will become in a few years will have little resemblance to who you were a few years ago. The only way for your marriage to succeed is for you wife to change also. She has plenty of issues to correct.
There was good reason you were attracted to the OW. Part of that had to do with you and part had to do with your W. When W makes those comments about not being someone who likes to have fun, not being a party-type girl, etc, it just sounds like a lot of deflection to not have to face her issues and make her needed changes. That does not mean she needs to become a party animal, but it does mean she should try to develop a positive outlook toward life and the future. It sounds to me like she is a little depressed. Maybe you should talk to her about getting on some anti-depressants too.
I also think that when you reassure her that she is ok, all you are doing is rescuing. She needs to face some hard facts herself. When you prevent this, your M stays stuck. The fact of the matter is that for things to get better, they will have to get worse. She will have to get hold of her various issues, as painful as that might be. IMO, the direct answer to her statement that you are trying to change her is “Yes, you need to change and grow into a healthy adult, just as I have been working to do.”
Has she read any of the R books discussed on this board? Have you read Dieda? Has she read Schlessinger? How about Passionate Marriage? How much work has she put into you M? How hard have you pushed her to work on the M? If she has not done much, is it because of her reluctance or yours? As she explores her issues, she might try to put the blame onto you for her problems, and maybe the possibility that her self analysis could result in her having more anger and resentment, which could possibly split your M is really what scares you. But I doubt that will happen. She has had plenty of reason to leave in the past and so far she has not.
It does not matter why she didn’t leave. You might say, well how could she leave with three small kids (the implication being that she wants to leave but is somehow held captive, which makes you feel even more guilty). If you were using drugs or abusing her, she would find a way to leave. She hasn’t left. So I doubt she will. Your fears are just that – your fears. Don’t let the conversations in your head stop you from seeing what is really going on and doing what you need to do.
You have made great progress and you need to stop selling yourself short. When you detach from your emotions, you seem to be able to see the big picture, you know what needs to be done, and you can do it. So start to stand on your own two feet. This board is only for advice and ideas. It cannot do the hard work for you. When it comes to your M, in reality, you are all alone. But you are also ready!
So become the man. It is this rock of stability that your W will need to get through her self discovery and growth. So when she makes those kinds of statements about herself, it might be better to ask her why she is like that instead of trying to convince her that she is not like that. Those are opening lines for further discussion. That is her way of asking for help and guidance. She is opening herself to you and you should follow up on that. Push the exploration as far as she is comfortable. It might surprise you how much she will be willing to talk.
As long as you keep trying to help her maintain her denial, I think you will be stuck, because that road can only lead so far until it comes crashing down. So IMO, the reason you feel stuck is because you are. You are on the wrong path. Jump over to the path of “The Way of the Superior Man.”
This comment she made "you don't adore me, you adore some vision of who you want me to be." is her honest opinion. She thinks you are trying to change her. AND from her comment later on, I bet she's thinking you are trying to change her to be more like the OW...she's still in a great deal of pain over that A Chrome.
NOW is the PERFECT time to get to a MC for the two of you on a more regular basis if you can swing it in ANY way.
Honestly Chrome, if your W never was someone who liked to socialize, never was a party girl...then why would you expect her to be now? This is a dynamic my folks struggle with. I mean, sure...when people meet they "date", so they are often in more social surroundings, does that mean she was comfortable in those surroundings....No, but it's part of the "dating ritual".
My Mom is a stay at home person, she doesn't like social events, isn't comfortable around a lot of people and has NEVER liked to do those things. Has she done them in the past? Of course, because it was a family event and she didn't want to be the party pooper, or because she and my dad were dating. Well, my dad IS a social butterfly who thrives on interaction with others in social events....he LOVES to go to parties, to dance, to be the center of attention. The exact opposite of my mother.
Now, I have NEVER seen a social side to my mother....I've always seen her appearing uncomfortable and awkward in those situations...my dad is oblivious to it because he is so comfortable. He also assumes that because he's comfortable everyone else is too. I remember talking with my dad one night on the phone and he was confiding in me that he found it difficult because my mom "wouldn't go have fun". It came as a surprise to him when I said to him "why do you insist she has fun YOUR way?" The things you find fun, she never has. He said something along the lines of "when we were younger we'd have block parties and she had fun" and I told him..."I never saw her have fun at those dad, she always sat at a table and maybe talked to her best friend...but she's not as social as you. She did those things because YOU wanted her to, not because she had fun at them." My dad was very resistent to hearing that too.
Now, my mom is just fine with the two of them going and doing things together....just the two of them. But my dad resists doing that. If he's not in a crowd of people and the center of attention he doesn't want to do it. It's really an interesting and sad thing to watch.
Chrome...you two aren't stuck, but this is the perfect time to get thee to a MC if there's any way possible and address this conversation. It could very well lead to something much better....don't put it off.
I can give you some insight into the W after an A. This actually just happened this past weekend. I have been struggling a lot w/ feeling insecure w/ myself knowing that he had gone to OW for whatever it was that she could/would give H instead of trying a bit harder to get me to work on R and let me know exactly what was lacking, however, that's old news/dead issue now.
I finally backslid a bit in the way I approached the EA on Friday evening, however, it turned out ok in the end. His cell phone had rang and he said it was "work." I've been thinking all along that his "friend" was a woman at work so I later made a snide comment (backsliding) about his cell phone. I then proceeded to tell him that I knew she still called. He said yeah, so & so and so & so call me (from work), but I don't work w/ my "friend." Then I'm left to wonder where in the heck he met someone and ended up having an EA with her, but I've moved beyond that.
He told me then & there that his "friend" "has been taken care of." I've come to the realization that I need to accept that and move on. Your W may not have enough info about your A that she needs in order to "move past it."
I have to agree w/ GEL and say C is the best thing you can do right now if you can get W to agree to it. But you may also need to have a convo w/ her about the A specifically and find out if she has enough info about it to deal with it and move on.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
Oh & one more important factor: I needed to get to the point where I felt H was truly "mine and only mine" again. That I didn't need to be constantly worried about anything if he was talking to another woman, etc. I needed to get to the point where I felt confident enough in MYSELF and what I had done to repair our R/M to know that he is truly MY H again first & foremost.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
Maybe this won't speak directly to your point but I've been hanging out a lot lately with a female friend who is quite LD. We've been talking a lot about my divorce and my dating so a lot of "sharing" has been going on between us. Over and over again she had said "I never understood that until I heard it from a woman's POV" when I tell her about the downside of being the HD spouse. For instance, she asked me why MBing wasn't good enough and I explained a bit and then used the analogy "Would you be happy with a doll instead of a real baby?" and her reaction was total chagrin like she suddenly got it. So.....I'm not sure exactly what I'm recommending here but it seems to me that if there are two sides to solving this kind of problem, being the manly man is only one half. Somehow your wife needs to gain insight.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
"Would you be happy with a doll instead of a real baby?"
That's a great analogy and one that might really get through to some of those women who just don't really get the male perspective, like my W. I'm going to tell her this one. Thanks!
Fixing HD/LD relationships is ALL about change. Our LD wives often want to be accepted for who they are, but who they are IS the problem. It seem to me that SOMEBODY has to change, but the one that changes will RESENT the fact they had to change. So how do you create a winning scenario for BOTH sides?
I gotta get to class, so no time for lengthy responses to earlier comments, but I did want to say this.
Cemars comments are very similar to what my W said. She basically said that one of us is going to have to change who they are, and that person will be miserable. I think her exact words were "I feel like you are going to leave me if I don't change, and then I will be miserable either way." I wanted to respond and ask why more sex, more affection, more time together would make her miserable, but I didn't get the chance.
So what Cemar is asking is something that is going through my W's mind.
Chrome
Last edited by chromosphere; 04/23/0702:48 PM.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
