It looks like my thread finally locked, so here's the new one.
Update: The Jayhawks lost, and that hurts me deeply, but Burgbud is still going to say something he thinks is clever, so let me say, ahead of this, that I still love him dearly, even if he is a misguided azz.
Remember how bummed I was that I had to go see Andre Watts during the game? Chalk one big warm fuzzy up to Ms.Hdog, as she came up with the following solution: I dropped her off at the concert, went to my brother's house (he lives close to the venue), watched the 2nd (depressing) half of the KU game, and then went to the concert hall and waited in the lobby for intermission. She could tell by my face what had happened, and gave me a big hug in the midst of all the concert-goers. Having told the ushers in the lobby of my wife's plan, as we walked into the concert, one of the ushers said, "so, this is the angel you married, eh?" Nice.
We had a nice hike on Sunday with DD5, with W initiating hand-holding.
Had a bit of a tiff last night though, but I stood my ground, for whatever it's worth. We were watching some crime show and one of the female cops was wearing something low cut, and also probably wearing a wonder bra, as she was showing some major cleavage. We both remarked how unlikely it was for a policewoman to be wearing something like that, but I remarked, "however unlikely it might be, I still like to look at it."
Of course I knew that she would react to this, but I was thinking about Burgbud's mantra: "Yep, that's me." She got preachy about the "objectification of women" and I took the "appreciation of the female form" argument. I mentioned that I thought her breasts were beautiful, and that I liked looking at them, but that it wasn't objectification, it was appreciation.
I knew there was no resolution to this debate, but it didn't get personal until this: W: blah blah objectification blah blah H: Blah blah, appreciation of the female form blah blah. It's just the way I am. W: You can call it what you will, but I see it as you objectifying women. I don't know if I can love a man who objectifies women. PAUSE...Hairdog stares at MsHdog. H: So you don't know if you can love me because of this belief, which I've told you is just the way I am; but you want me to be happy with you the way you are when you ignore me sexually? Think about that for awhile.
I went upstairs to bed. She ended up falling asleep on the couch and didn't come up to bed until 2am or so. Haven't heard from her this morning, but that's not unusual
We were watching some crime show and one of the female cops was wearing something low cut, and also probably wearing a wonder bra, as she was showing some major cleavage.
Forget about the wonder bra. I went to Victoria's Secret this weekend and spent $51 (it hurt but I did it) and bought the Ipex. It's a miracle of textile engineering. It gives you cleavage that is elegantly assertive rather than brazenly aggressive. It's like the Mercedes of bras.
Please forgive this commercial interruption. Back to the HD show.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I went to Victoria's Secret this weekend and spent $51 (it hurt but I did it) and bought the Ipex. It's a miracle of textile engineering. It gives you cleavage that is elegantly assertive rather than brazenly aggressive. It's like the Mercedes of bras.
I'm jealous. VS doesn't carry my size.
HD, glad to hear about your good weekend! Good job with the convo. You know, I used to say some of the stuff your W says, but I've abandoned a lot of that as I've aged. I think the best thing you can do is keep putting your POV out there in a matter-of-fact, non-defensive way.
I am totally confused. What is your "goal" again? Making love with your wife, right? So to make love you create and feel love, right? It sounds like you had a good weekend and your wife was considerate of your feelings and was loving toward you. The solution for the concert and game sounded great, she empathized with YOUR feeling of loss, and the hike and hand holding was good. Everything here looks like your wife was making an effort to be a loving wife.
We both remarked how unlikely it was for a policewoman to be wearing something like that, but I remarked, "however unlikely it might be, I still like to look at it."
Of course I knew that she would react to this, but I was thinking about Burgbud's mantra: "Yep, that's me."
So you thought this was the best time to ASSERT yourself about the feminism cr*p your wife is dealing with? You consciously KNEW this would create an argument and chose this timing to push forward. How did that help with the goal of making love? Leaving your wife on the couch certainly makes making love a bigger impossibility than normal.
Who cares who is "right" about the objectification versus appreciation argument? Quite frankly you both probably have decent opinions on the subject but this appears to me as you DEFLECTING from the main issue. Or maybe I am wrong. Is it more important for your wife to come down off her high horse and admit it is okay for you to appreciate/objectify a woman OR to have an atmosphere of love that allows making love to be a possibility?? I guess I keep "assuming" that making love is the MAIN GOAL for you.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Maybe Mrs. HD should take an art appreciation class. I think she has a skewed sense of what 'objectify' is... and this REALLY confuses me, given her interest in Buddhism.
Anyway. Glad to see you stood your ground. I'm also glad to see that the two of you can appreciate 'deeds' done for one another. That's nice and healthy.
I guess I keep "assuming" that making love is the MAIN GOAL for you.
Actually, regaining my self-integrity is my main goal. While it is true that I hope to ML with my wife one day, I am trying to do it by becoming more like the man I used to be back when she was initially attracted to me. I have changed my viewpoints on so many things in order to be more "likeable" by her, and it has ended up having mostly the opposite effect. Plus, it has resulted in my inability to respect myself.
This has always been about being the best Hairdog I can be, and, as a side effect, showing my wife that she can respect me again, trust me again, and choose to commit to the R again. As a side effect of that, how can she resist me? (rhetorical question, no examples needed!)
HD: WTG ^5 on the appreciation of the feminine form convo. You da man.
NOP: Man have you got a set of stones! Even if it is just set of one I hope it passes quickly and that this is your last. 7mm sounds huge. That's like 3/8 of an inch. Yikes!
Don't misunderstand me. I would never ask that you believe any differently or try to act likable. That is the hardest part to explain in my personal belief. I think it is important to empathize and be understanding without ever apologizing when you do not mean it.
Actually, regaining my self-integrity is my main goal.
OK. Then this helps me understand what you did. Last night was an exercise for you to feel like you could bring up your POV knowing that she would be upset and argue with you and to argue it without backing down. Pretty good job then. FWIW, in that case instead of using your last line before walking up to bed, I would have said, "that's your choice. This is who I am." Because your last line then deflected from the main point of holding your ground on the objectification/appreciation issue and MsHD's comment by inserting the making love issue which deflects from the issue of maintaining strength on your viewpoint.
So the making love issue is more of a side issue and you can wait for that to develop after you feel you have your integrity and self-esteem back.
You do realize that self esteem and integrity come from you completely and MsHD is a minor player in this issue, right?
This goal makes much more sense with your actions. There has been so much focus on the making love issue that it seemed to me that it was driving your behavior. And I was getting lost in all the responses.
Last edited by fearless; 03/26/0702:09 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I hope it passes quickly and that this is your last. 7mm sounds huge. That's like 3/8 of an inch. Yikes!