Preparing for the end game, maybe.

[*KS*Chick*]

I think it would be good to go as a family. New start and all that

[LoginName]

Well, I think we're getting close to a decision. No, I think the decisions been made. She will go to AR with D. I think s and I will stay here. We will try to visit each other often. Maybe she'll miss me and want me to come out there, maybe not.

The last MC session was good but lacking. The MC praised me for how strong I've been, how most men couldn't have done what I did. I brought up some of my fears; that I wouldn't see my d enough, that W would decide she didn't want me, and so why should I go to AR. Because of what my s had said to us earlier (that he might want to go to AR) my W was willing to say she wanted me in AR. I felt she was once again saying what the MC and others wanted her to say and not what she really felt. I pressed her after the session and she admitted as much. She wants to live without me and see if she misses me. I think she wants to be independent. It's not really about me, but it is rejection and it still hurts (not as much as I feared it would).

So we've got a few, maybe 3 months, before she and d are gone. She will probably take a few house hunting trips and such before that too. I've got to get strong and be ready for this.

Meanwhile, we are getting along pretty well. I'm spending quality time with d; bike rides, games, talking, etc. As a family, we are having fun, and good times. Building memories.

I think we've got a slightly better than 50-50 chance that we will make it (51-49?). I have hope, but it will take time. I think I could almost move to peicing in a way. But it doesn't matter. The plan is still the same. Back off, give her space, detach, GAL, PMA. It still works. Maybe I'll be doing it for the rest of our M, if it lasts.

By the way, the MC also praised my W for what she has done. She is going through huge changes. She started out doing it the chicken sh!t way (actual words of MC)by leaving and having an A, now she is doing it the right way. She had the strength to come back home. She faced the scarlet letter, and even though almost all of it was in her own head, the condemnation of friends and family. She came back. She has gone to MC. She has been making an effort to communicate. She is trying hard to be honest. She has broken out of the prison (she had built for herself) and is going to be better for it.

I hope she decides she wants me in her life. I hope she decides that before I lose patience and move on. How long can I live without the affection and love that all humans need? When will I decide, if ever, that she really isn't all that anyway and I can do better? What if she finds someone else? (I don't think she is looking, or plans or looking, but people meet people. If we were in a strong R, she might be tempted. The way things are now, why wouldn't she be really tempted.

Well, have to go pick up my s. How y'all doin?

[LoginName]

So here’s what’s going on now. I think I’m kind of sort of in piecing, but I’m not sure. It seems so far away still.

We get along well. We treat each other well. We can talk and we can enjoy each others company. It’s almost like before the bomb, and that’s not all good. Our M was missing a passion. I didn’t feel happy or loved. Now, I’m not loved, but at least it’s in the open. Then again, before, we were sleeping in the same bed and did ML a couple of times a month or so. I could kiss her, and cuddle with her. Now, there is hardly any physical contact at all. Sometimes a hug, that’s about it.

I think this is what she is thinking and what is happening. Of course this is only my opinion, and only part of the story, but I think it is the crux of the matter. She felt totally responsible for everything, including my happiness. She felt it was her duty to take care of everything and everyone even at the expense of herself. As I grew more unhappy with the lack of passion in our M, she felt more and more like a failure, and she kept trying hard to do her duty. Finally, it got to be too much for her. She couldn’t live with the guilt and the feelings of failure. She felt trapped and started to become desperate. Then the OM contacted her. Now she had a way out. She had somewhere to go.

She left the trap she was in and went to the relative safety of the OM. She denied her ‘duties’ and decided to live for herself. Of course, every action has consequences. She missed her children and felt terribly guilty for leaving them. So she came back, mainly for the kids. (Maybe, the OM being fairly fresh out of a D himself, and possibly needy himself, she found herself in the role of having to do her duty for him too. Another reason she may have came home.)

Now she’s back, and trying to figure out what she wants and how to live her life. She is afraid though. She is afraid she could fall back into the trap she was in, that she could lose herself again. She is afraid I will have expectations that she can’t meet and she will feel like a failure again. She doesn’t want to even try if she thinks there is no way she can win.

I had an A. How does that affect her? She says not much. I tend to believe her, but maybe it does really bother her and that also keeps her from being able to get closer to me. Maybe it means nothing.

She says she doesn’t love me in that way anymore, but that she would like to, and she is willing to take the time to see if the feeling comes back.

My view of this is as follows. It is mainly her journey, her issues, which we are working through now. Yes, I made many mistakes and have many faults, but this is mainly about the expectations she had for herself, the expectations she thought I had, the sense of duty and responsibility she felt, and her finally casting off those chains and working on living a healthy life. Some of what she felt was probably true, but many of the chains she felt were of her own making and in her own head. The OM was a chance for her to escape. (I don’t get the OM thing. Everything I know about him, and my W’s impeccable taste in men, leads me to believe he is really great. Why didn’t she stay with him? She could have had him, and the kids, at least part time, and been rid of me. I question her reasoning on this one).

Sex, and physical affection, is an issue with me and in our M. She thinks I have expectations in this area that she can’t meet. Her love for me in this way has been killed or at least pushed way down by my expectations and her fear of losing herself again. Having control of her own body is very important to her.

My mistakes were taking her for granted, not addressing the problems better, being needy and demanding, expecting her to fulfill me and validate me, setting unrealistic expectations, mainly in bed, about how she had to act to prove she loved me. And of course, breaking my vows and having an A. (there are more…)

What am I to do, how should I act, what is the best strategy? I think it is to continue as I have been, only more so. I need to give her space, and be patient. In the meantime, I need to find ways to GAL and keep myself happy. I need to work on not building up resentment toward her. I need to support her and help her in her journey through unconditional love.

But being rejected, craving love, having her so close and yet so far on a daily basis, is really hard. Not letting resentment build is hard. Not pushing for more affection, not pushing her to make up her mind and love me already, is hard. Feeling that I’m failing and losing her because I’m not doing something I should do is hard.

I still think I have at least 50 – 50 odds of making this M work. Is patience really the biggest part of it? If I can relax and wait while loving unconditionally, can this really become a good M/R and can it happen before I lose patience, feel resentful or just plain get tired of not being loved and go find someone who will love me? I hope so.

Should I try a 180? Since she doesn’t love me, would doing something romantic, which would be a 180 for me, make her feel I was trying to manipulate, trap, or coerce her?

What does she need so she can feel love for me? I think she needs to feel free (not trapped), safe, respected, loved, appreciated, and forgiven. And she needs to feel that way long enough so she can trust that it’s true.

She came back. She left the OM (as far as I know) and came back. She had to face my anger (and she is terribly afraid of anger), her guilt, the opinion of friends and family that she is an adulterer who left her own children, and her fear of being trapped again. It took a lot of courage for her to come back.

Here is our plan, and it is killing me, but I think it’s a good plan. She will move to AR with my D, while I stay here with my S until he finishes HS, then we will move to AR too. She will buy a house there and I will sell the house here. We will pay off our debt and start saving because houses are much cheaper in AR. S and I will travel to AR whenever we can and visit W and D. If we were to divorce, we would do much the same thing. We will establish separate financial accounts, but I will contribute to her income so she can make ends meet in AR. If we were divorced, it would be like child support. (Of course, if we divorced, I might be able to win custody of the kids and make her pay child support to me. Then she would have to live on her own income and probably not afford a house but have to rent something a lot less expensive.)

She won’t say, or can’t say, that she loves me and wants to be with me. So is she just leading me on and using me? Is this a way for her to use me to get the house she wants, get my D full time, get a car and financial safety, until she feels strong and secure enough to tell me to take a hike?

But her actions don’t seem so manipulative and cynical. She says We when taking about AR and the house. She is planning all the times when the kids don’t have school that we can visit each other. She isn’t rushing to get her own financial accounts ( I may have to push her on that). Basically, she is being a good friend and parent. (which can make it harder for me. If she can be so good as a friend, why can’t she touch me, why can’t she say she loves me?).

[justbestfriends]

Haven't got lots of time but I really do think you need to keep doing the things you've been doing. You, like me, have come so far in the last few weeks and what you've been doing has moved things forward.

Give both of you space, shower love on your daughter and see how long you can stick things out.

Do you want to give up today? I suspect not, so don't agonise over the future. That is one of the great lessons I've learnt through all of this.

Take care my friend.

[LoginName]

JBF, good words at just the right time. My W (and D) have been in AR buying a house for the last 4 days. I've found I can actually relax and breath without her in the house and in my face. She is coming home today. This morning I'm tense and teary again. Damn.

I'm doing a lot of thinking. I hope to find time to put my thoughts here and I hope to get some insight from the DBers our there, especially you. Basically, I'm trying to figure out the crux of the matter. What am I mainly and really feeling? Is it pain from being rejected? Is it pain from the ambiguity? I am strong. I am OK, even good, on my own. I don't need to do this, so why am I? Love? BS.

But I don't want to give up today. I will try not to agonise over the future. If you've learned that lessson, my friend, you are truly enlightened.

thanks again, and welcome back.

[*KS*Chick*]

waiting to read your update.

[LoginName]

Hey UA, good to hear from you and nice to know you're still keeping an eye on me. I try to follow your posts. It looks to me like you've had quite a ride, but that things are improving now. Let me know if I'm misinformed, how you're doing, and how you feel.

Things are happening fast for me or to me right now. My W has her PhD, accepted the job, and will move to AR with my D. We just made an offer on a house down there. I have started the process of selling our house here in Denver. I think this is the best plan because; financially this will get us out of debt (almost) and in a monthly surplus (if we follow the budget), W will be happy in a new job that will give her self esteem and joy, D will be well taken care of (although it kills me that she will be away from me), S will get to stay here and finish HS. I'll keep my job which has a lot of potential to be a great job.

The M/R ... who knows? There is/are a lot of positives. We are good friends now and good parents. We still sleep in separate beds, hardly ever touch, but seem to enjoy each others company. She just came back from a trip to AR to find the house. Yesterday, she thanked me sincerely for supporting her and helping her do all this. She likes me. I hope she loves me again some day (H@ll, she does love me now, but it's the ILYBNILWY stuff, maybe she'll miss me and fall in love with me again.)

I'm doing what I'd do if she were divorcing me, pretty much, so in a way I'm not taking much of a risk. The biggest difference is that if we were divorcing, I wouldn't let my D go so easily. I know my W will be a good mom though.

She is and will be happy. Maybe, with time, she will look up and wish she had someone to share the happiness with. Maybe she'll want to share it with me (scares me to think of who she might want to share it with).

I guess, being optimistic, I've got a better than 50-50 chance of saving my M (51 to 49 probably). Thanks for asking.

[justbestfriends]

You sound positive but realistic. Que sera..

[LoginName]

Do I sound positive? I guess I am to a degree. I feel I'll be ok, my kids will be ok, even my W will be ok, and I have a shot at saving my M. It still hurts like hell. I still cry harder than I thought possible (although not nearly as often).

Today, this morning especially, I had to fight the feeling of "what about me!". Why does she get everything she wants and I get nothing. Why does she get to chase her dream, feel good about herself, be relieved of her sense of duty, and not work on our R, while I have to push my needs down, ignore my fears and anger, support her and love her to the best of my ability, without any expectation of appreciation or reward. Why? When do I get mine? Why don't I go and find someone who would appreciate me, fill my needs (as I would fill hers), and be happy?

The answer is kind of in my lament. You don't love in order to get rewarded or appreciated. It's hard not to expect a little something though. And, looking at through a DBer's eyes, there have been many small positives.

I fear though, that if I'm not careful, my M could work out in a way but I'll be right back to where I was a year or so ago: in a M where I didn't feel loved and where passion and intimacy was missing. I won't go back to that. I will, I am, fighting like hell to keep my M and to make it better, and I can't stop fighting if things get back to the bad normal it used to be. I have to keep DBing, maybe for the rest of the M, however long that might be.

I've got a lot I want to say and share, and have a dialoge on, but if I take the time to think it out and put it into logical order, I won't get around to it. So I'll babble and journal instead.

Today we signed loan papers to buy her house (she always says 'our' house, I'm always careful to say her house)in AR. It's a little scary, but she is very happy and excited. She thanked me for helping so much, and doing so much, and she gave me a hug. One of the few she has given me. Maybe more telling, when she tried to get around me in the kitchen while we were getting dinner on the table, she put her hand on my hip. She had been going around or other actions to avoid that kind of casual contact. I know, it means nothing. And yet, DB says to look for baby steps, and appreciate the positive, as a means to keep going and remain patient if for no other reason.

So, we're doing it. She will be moving. We will be physically separated. And maybe our M will be saved along the way, or maybe not.

With the mortgage; we are doing something that I think is a little rare. We are buying the house in AR with a home equity loan on the current house, then we will sell this house and use the proceeds to pay off the home equity loan. The bank thought I was going to AR too, and they wanted a letter from my employer saying I'd be able to keep my job and work from AR and not have a cut in pay. When my W and I first started this plan, I'd talked to my supervisor, and she thought I could probably work form AR and keep my job. Since, I've kind of received a promotion, and a new boss. This boss wouldn't go along with that idea and wouldn't sign a letter saying I could work from AR. So before, my W and my plan was that after a while (maybe 2 years after son graduates, or earlier if my W just missed me too much :-) ) then I'd take my job to AR and work remotely. Now, that might not be an option. There are no jobs for me in my field in AR.

I haven't told my W this yet, and I don't think I will. I'll see what happens down the road. If she wants me in AR, and I want to go, then I'll see if my boss will let me work from AR or if I have to quit, or keep up a long distance M.

At the company where I work, quite a few of the people, managers included, are out of state and work by internet, phone, IM, etc. Maybe, after a couple of years working here, they'll be impressed enough with me that they'll let me work remotely too.

As it is now, my boss would support me working from AR for maybe a week out of the month or some other arrangement. I should be able to take a few long weekends, maybe while kids are out of school, and drive to AR and work from there.

I worry now about sleeping arraingments. If the whole family travels to AR, and we stop half way in a hotel, will my W and I share a bed? In AR, in OUR new house, will I have to sleep on the couch? You know, in a way I don't know if I'm ready to sleep with her yet. I know I want to get to that point, and if she said she wanted to join me in bed I'd agree (no matter what reservations I have :-) ).

Oh well. I'll keep on plugging. I'm going to try to start a thread about Love (probably not the first one to do that). I think I'll write some of the things I've discovered on this journey (maybe some of it will help others).

while my W was in AR house hunting, I was more relaxed, a little happier. Maybe separation will be good for me (although I do fear that maybe I'll decide I don't want her back - as well as fearing she won't want me). I could be myself a bit.

Enough babbling for now, at least on my thread. Not even going to spell check, just going to click submit. ;-)

[*KS*Chick*]

Hi LIN - Not really sure what to update with. Let's see. H moved out 1 Jan. We have been talking more lately, spending more time together and I think we're both trying. I'm hopeful. Hopeful with no expectations - is that possible? (I don't think so )

About my aunt - thanks for the reminder - I need to call her. She has started chemo and I haven't heard a prognosis but she is SO positive. She still scares me - her church believes if you say ANYTHING negative, that you're losing faith in God. So she basically won't acknowledge the cancer, because she'll sound negative and she doesn't want God upset with her.

I read your sitch yesterday. I don't really know what to say. I'm kinda speechless.