From what I have read from Christian readings is that GOD does not care if we are happy. This is NOT his priority. Happiness is SELF centered. What he wants for us is JOY. Joy comes from GIVING, Those are some of the things I have heard in religious circles. I don't buy it hook, line and sinker.
In some secular circles, "I hear do what feels good and right." I don't buy that either view in it's extreme version.
I have been to self help groups where someone speaks and says "Hi, my name is XXXX and i am a recovering Catholic/Baptist/ XYZ/ or what ever.
Well, Lou, I look at it this way. I have been talking to CeMar, based on his response, for two or three YEARS now. I know him no better now than I did the day I began speaking with him.
I certainly know his complaints. I know very well what causes him angst.
But I do not KNOW Cemar, not any better now than I did then, and I have done plenty of inviting. I've set up threads for him. I have asked him to converse with me.
He declines. Yet he will still continue to bitch and moan.
Much like my xH.
And perhaps CeMar does not do it on purpose. Yet. There is NOTHING there for me to know. NOTHING there for me to empathize with... for he will NEVER let his guard down. He will not answer questions... but he WILL continually go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on... ad nauseum... about what is NOT right in his life.
No one, but a woman who is steadfast in her belief in marital vows... could bear the brunt of such... pessimism. I don't think I spelled that right. Anyway.
FWIW, Corrie has done an admirable job of attempting to draw things out of CeMar. She is one of SEVERAL people who have been attempting, or attempted to help him over the last few YEARS...but his responses/questions never waver. He almost never gives us any real insight to CeMar. It would certainly be nice if he would, it would be a nice change of pace from his constant negativity...but he won't, that's his choice.
the choice he continually makes to not open up however makes it impossible for anyone on this BB to really help him, and it makes me believe HE doesn't think there is anything at all wrong with him, nothing he can do, that this is all out of his control....that it's all his W's doing/fault, and that she behaves the way she does on purpose. I still cannot escape the feeling, he's never communicated his frustrations/complaints to his wife...I believe she's clueless about all of this, and probably has her own plethora of complaints/frustrations about him.
I know he is very frustrated with his situation, but he steadfastly refuses (by his his lack of response and actions) to be part of the solution. This is my observation of him since I joined this BB and begain interacting with him almost three years ago.
I wish him the best (really I do), but I don't see anything changing in his situation until he recognizes his role in the issues he's complaining about...and begins making changes in himself, for three years...he's refused to do that.
I wrote this else where about someone else, but it speaks to your situation (and alot of HD men)
"His double bind is that " he demands to be desired " if someone tells you that you have to or are obliged to do something its not your desire."
Schnarch has a wonderfull understanding of the ability for humans to give a meaning to sex. If you can only see sex as a proof of your value and demand that you feel desirable then you are going to be very unhappy. In that situation if someone follows to your demands then they are only "doing it to make you happy" , you want them to do it to make them happy. I know that you want to feel desirable, we all do and the frustration of unexpresed desires of your own don't help things at all.
Can you be happy? sure why not? who stands in the way? your wife or you?
The whole desire thing is so incredibly complicated. Do we all want to be desired, probably. Can we ask for it, probably not. But what is a relationship without desire? It is a relationship that carries no value. So that is the catch-22. Us HD's are supposed to ASK for what we want, but the faact that we have to ASK for what we want means the LD person has ALREADY failed.
Can a man be happy without a lover? Yes. But compared to the happiness of having a lover, it is not even close.
On another thread you said: I think this one is huge. I know my wife is always in mother mode and NEVER in lover mode. Her whole point in life is to live for her children.
I have mentioned this dynamic before with regard to my wife. It is discussed in Pia Melody’s book “Facing Love Addiction : Giving Yourself the Power to Change the Way You Love.” If your wife is truly doing this (and IMO that is a big if since it is only your POV), then she is in the avoider node, avoiding you, and using her kids as a surrogate EC relationship. That implies two things: 1) she may have some FOO based issues surrounding intimacy toward men that she wants to avoid, 2) you do not provide the safe environment she needs to have that EC relationship. So, as everyone here has repeatedly told you, a lot of your problems come from you.
So what is it that people want to know that I have not expressed before? I have touched on so many things.
There are plenty of unanswered questions on this thread alone. Why don’t you start there? Now don’t go running away and hiding as you usually do when more tough questions come back to you. That is your MO. You know that.
Us HD's are supposed to ASK for what we want, but the faact that we have to ASK for what we want means the LD person has ALREADY failed.
Cemar,
This really caught my eye. I must say I am not familiar with the issues on SSM, but I want to add my two cents nonetheless.
Is it fair to say that the LD person (your W) has already failed? How many of us know how another would want to be desired? So many times we desire others the way we would want to be desired. It may be true that the LD person has no desire (as I stated above I am not familiar with this issue) but it may be that the LD person is desiring an HD person the way they would want to be desired. Asking and taking away all assumption would definitely clear this up. In so many other situations a loving partner will do something not because they necessarily want to but because they know how important it is to their partner. Could this also be the case in a SSM situation?
I am reminded of Chapman's The 5 Love Languages. So many partners feel frustration because their needs are not being met. Their love language is not being spoken. So many times partners are expressing love in the way they want to recieve love not knowing that the other is feeling unloved. If I give gifts because I feel loved when receiving gifts but my partner does not feel loved because I do not spend quality time with her, does this mean I have failed? Does this mean my partner should not ask to be loved in her language?
I am the man who is loving my kids and will keep them from continuing this cycle of destruction.
The whole desire thing is so incredibly complicated. Do we all want to be desired, probably. Can we ask for it, probably not. But what is a relationship without desire?
No, desire isn't something one can ask for. It is something that happens when one is desirable. I would advise that you stop laying all the blame for your SSM on your wife. Doing that just makes you even more undesirable.
Us HD's are supposed to ASK for what we want
Absolutely. If you don't ask she won't know. Don't assume she can read your mind. Tell her.
but the faact that we have to ASK for what we want means the LD person has ALREADY failed.
You couldn't be more wrong. This is one of the things that used to tick me off when I was lurking here. Some people seem so quick to just blame the LD person for the SSM. It takes two.
I can only speak for my own sitch here....but I truly DID NOT understand what my H was feeling. I just didn't. If you are just complaining and griping to your wife and acting like it's all her fault (and that's kinda what H did) that will only push her further away. Might as well just get used to things the way they are and stop talking about it.
If you truly want to try to improve your SL you need to sit down and talk to your W. Or write her a letter. Don't attack her, don't whine, don't criticize, and lose the sarcasm. Tell her how you FEEL. How do you feel? Unloved, lost, in pain, sad, angry, afraid? Do you even know? If you don't know, you won't be able to communicate it to her in a way that she will understand.
Whining and griping is fine if you need to vent. Everyone needs to do that from time to time. Beyond that, IMO, it's just wasted energy.
