If you think you can do that, then accept the "just sex" option.
Nop:
The problem I see with your advice is that no "just sex" option was ever offered. People here are referring to it as an offer, and HD has listed it as one of his options, but look again at her email to him. Here's what she said:
Quote:
I might be able to grit my teeth and force myself to do this if it's what you need to stay married. But it is not making love, just as cleaning the house is not making love, and it certainly won't make me feel very loved or loving toward you.
Does that sound like an offer to you? I mean, I legitimate offer that she would actually follow through on? Not to me, it doesn't. It's a mind game, designed to intimidate HD and get him to back down. Can you imagine her reaction if he told her he wanted to accept her "offer?"
Hairdog: Okay MrsHD, I've decided to take option #3. Please climb into bed, remove your pants, and grit your teeth.
MrsHD: Where did I leave my handgun?
Just my opinion. Sex with MrsHD is not an option at this point, gritted teeth or not. Anyone agree?
I might be able to grit my teeth and force myself to do this if it's what you need to stay married. But it is not making love, just as cleaning the house is not making love, and it certainly won't make me feel very loved or loving toward you.
Hairdog, sounds like you need to buy MsHD one of those minty rubber mouth protector thingies they make high school football players wear . A cup might for yourself might not be a bad investment at the same time.
Normally I would agree with everything you have said. In fact, HD has been told those things many times on this board, including by me. But I now see his wife differently, similar to my wife. My wife has a very hard time seeking pleasure for herself. She is the martyr and devotes herself to the kids. She does not seek pleasure, but rather tries to avoid pain, thinking that she is only doing the noble thing by protecting herself and the kids.
The advice you give HD (and that I gave at one time) is to make him into a more attractive person. For most people, this allows their pleasure seeking side to come out. Improve yourself and the R will improve. For MrsHD and my wife, this does not make any difference. They will feel better not having someone pressure them, but it only allows them to back off the pain avoidance dance. There is no desire to seek pleasure. They have completely shut themselves down to this. It is way too vulnerable, too scary, too life threatening. They have been there and they will not go there again.
Corri might be able to shed a little light on this because I think this is part of what she is going through. Another poster on here some time back, Happy Giant I think, had a wife with similar but more extreme issues. We guessed she had experienced some severe sexual molestation sometime. She would not become that vulnerable to those feelings again. She would D before risking that.
Can you see how this totally changes the landscape? That is why people here criticized me so sharply for the tactics I had to resort to in order to save my marriage. If it were only a matter of becoming a less angry person, it would have been easy for me. But my wife never responded. It was never enough because she always had a new deflection why she could not trust me. I could have waited an eternity for her to come out from behind her defenses. On her own, she would not do it. It took a fair amount of in-your-face talk about FOO issues to get her to really see where she had responsibility, plus training for the both of us to lessen our enmeshment and not escalate, plus slowly getting used to showing vulnerability and getting used to those uncomfortable feelings.
Welp, if anyone noticed... when HD got the email from Mrs. HD saying she could 'grit' her teeth through the sex... and HD, naturally, got disgusted by that mental image... that 'mental image of her gritting her teeth, created emotional distance between them.
And BOOM. Mrs. HD initiates more affection.
I completely understand what Fearless is trying to suggest to HD. Trying to get another person to want to meet your needs, willingly, with desire... is the exact opposite of what attractive behavior is. I've been telling the guys this for years (grumble, grumble grumble).
This is what I would do. I'd write Mrs. HD a little note back in response to this:
Quote:
I might be able to grit my teeth and force myself to do this if it's what you need to stay married. But it is not making love, just as cleaning the house is not making love, and it certainly won't make me feel very loved or loving toward you.
Mrs. HD:
Your kidding, right? What makes you think I'd want to ML, much less have sex, with a woman who feels she would have to grit her teeth to get through it?
You have stated your position very clearly on the matter. I appreciate your honesty.
HD.
And then I would go home and keep that mental image of her gritting her teeth burned into your mind, for it will give you the emotional fortitude and distance you need to give her what she is telling you she needs from you. That you would never dream, in a million years, of asking a woman to give you sex or make love with you in order for you to scratch an itch.
She wants to respect you. It is the biggest turn on there is. She needs to see your 'disgust' with her.
I'd go a little bit further with this, but I'll stop for now.
You are a male, you must suffer for all of the sins of males past, and don't you forget it!
Not that I'd ever do it (well not right now, when the time comes perhaps, but there are other things to get through first), but what about a response of:
"That's BS. Try again."
Puts the ball totally in her court, and makes her think about how she responded.
Fearless, Normally I would agree with everything you have said.
Lillie, that did surprise me too
Cobra,
Yeah I know that I do not know HDs sitch and wife as well as the rest of you. I think that can be good and bad. I am sure I repeat a lot or miss some obvious things. I am just optimistic enough though to hope that some of what I say is applicable anyway.
The advice you give HD (and that I gave at one time) is to make him into a more attractive person.
Sort of true but not about attracting his wife as much as feeling good about himself regardless of his wife's "immediate" response. (Because I think ultimately she would respond - they were in love at one point and had a healthy sex life so we at least know it is possible)
The whole deflection issue - deflection is a normal response by someone who feels attacked. The key, IMO, is to recognize the deflection and treat the comments with respect but not let it deter you. I repeat that I do not think deflecting remarks need to be accepted or rejected; just acknowledged.
For example: HD: I want to make love once a week
MsHD: You need to work on your own happiness
HD: I may need to do that (Don't deny because that creates a whole new direction and don't accept this either if it is true - just deflect right back) however I still want to make love once a week.
MsHD: Why do you think making love will change things?
HD: I am not looking to change things. Making love is a way for me to be connected to you/ to show I love you.
And so on and so forth until hopefully you get somewhere like this
MsHD: But I do not feel like it
BINGO - HD: I can understand you do not always feel like it.(No judgment just recognition of what was said) We used to have a great sex life. Why do you think that changed?
I don't know whether this is really possible or exactly how it would happen. it just seems like this is where HD would want the off-balance to occur with his wife. She would be in an incredibly vulnerable position in this case.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
. A cup might for yourself might not be a bad investment at the same time. 
