What I see going on in your date night conversations is a pattern of both of you playing a certain amount of martyr, not just her. Neither of you want to “put yourself out there” and take a stand, even on something like choosing a movie. You each take the safe position first, ask what the other wants to do, so you can then approve or veto that suggestion.
You tried to break this cycle when you stepped up and got her a fish sandwich. She vetoed that and you internalized it, saying you won’t ever do that again. This is major enmeshment.
When I got home, like I said, she was in a mood.
Which set off your defense system. You reactivity is already rising before the dialogue even began. My guess is that you are anticipating being blame for something.
Choc.: "Come sit down, I got you something to eat." Mrs. Choc.: "What?" Choc.: "A Filet-o-Fish sandwich and some fries." Mrs. Choc.: "Oh no, I won't eat that." Choc.: "Why not?" Mrs. Choc.: "Because it's not healthy. I don't eat fast food anymore." (at this point I'm exasperated)
This last statement is an invalidation of you efforts and your concern for her, which is why it hurts and makes you angry. But, can you see that you are tying your sense of self esteem to your wife’s approval. You are not the fish sandwich. If she doesn’t want it, it has nothing to do with you as a person. There is nothing to get upset about. You made an assumption. It turned out to be wrong. You should be upset with yourself, not her. (Fearless, you like that validation of your assumption ideas?!)
Now in the functional relationship, she could very easily say “Thank you for your consideration,” so don’t think I am letting her off the hook. Whether you decide to get her another sandwich in the future should depend on your ability to do so without validation from her and not depend on her obligation to be thankful to you. If she says thank you, then it is a separate gift to you. She does the same thing too. You can see her martyrdom more clearly.
Choc.: "Well, then just throw it out. I thought it was better than not eating anything.” Mrs. Choc.: "I mean, I appreciate it and all, but I eat healthy now."
Maybe her conscience got the better of her here, which means she is considering your feelings.
Choc.: "OK. Then we'd better get going." After this, she was in a HORRIBLE mood, that even my kids noticed, as D19 kept rolling her eyes at me. Then: Choc.: "If you don't want to go out tonite, we don't have to."
This is Choc going into martyr role…
Mrs. Choc.: "No, that's fine."
….MrsChoc trying to mayrtyr role back….
Choc.: "Cuz you seem like you don't want to go, and I don't want to go if you don't want to."
…but Choc won’t let her have it….
Mrs. Choc.: "No, let's go." (still in a HORRIBLE mood)
…. she’s going to be the martyr tonight, damnit!
(NOTE OF MAJOR ANNOYANCE HERE: After biting my head off, my kids' heads off, and generally being in a pissy, grumpy mood, she gets in the car and proceeds to call her mother on the cell phone, because if she doesn't call her every day, she'll never hear the end of it -- something she points out to me now for the 3,225th time. All of a sudden, WHAMO- she's talking excitedly on the phone, and in a good mood. Called her sister-in-law, too, and was in an even better mood. I'm thinking "WTF is that? She's nicer to them, than she is to her own immediate family??)
So what is it you are complaining about? First you don’t like her being in a grumpy mood, then you’re upset she flipped over into a good mood? How can she please you? Do you see this has nothing to do with her mood, it is about YOU not feeling validate by her. She is not acknowledging the pain you put yourself through because of your loyalty to her, then she is not giving you credit for the effort you made to please her. She turned to a good mood because of someone else, not you, right?
I understand this and it used to piss me off too. Why can’t W be grateful for your efforts to please her? Why does she intentionally defy my good intentions? Implicit in that statement is the message that your good intentions should control her emotions. That one way road is ok, but she should not control YOUR emotions, right. Now way are you going to be beholding to someone like her! Just know that this hypocrisy is not missed on her. Fix this.
After the movie, neither one of us had eaten any dinner (she did wolf down maybe 1/3 of the fish sandwich, while STANDING at the table.
What’s up with her standing and eating? Whether you think that is appropriate manners or not, you are judging her with this statement. It is just another aspect of the power struggle you two are waging.
Good thing I didn't immediately throw it in the trash, which is what I FELT like doing). She saw a pizza place near the movie theatre, with the same name as a place we used to like, and wondered out loud if it was the same owner. Then:
Choc.: "Wanna go get a slice?" [b]
There’s that non-committal setup starting. Ask her to stick her neck out first so you can judge her…
[b]Mrs. Choc.: "No."
… she won’t take the bait….
Choc.: "We didn't eat."
… you keep pressing….
Mrs. Choc.: "It's late, they're probably closing." (It was 9:30)
… picking up the martyr role again…
Choc.: "OK."
Good that you dropped it.
(I know that "It's late, they're probably closing" is Venusspeak for my W, who really wants to have an entire back-and-forth converation where I say "No, it's not that late," and she says "Yes, it is -- I hate it when we're trying to eat, and they're like putting the chairs up" and I say "It's Friday, I'm sure they're open later," and she says "I don't know" and then I finally offer to either call on my cell phone to see how late they're open, or go in and ask them (she feels stupid walking up to the door and then walking away, so I do it), and anyway I know this is what she's REALLY trying to say, and I'm just not up for it.
Do you see the same dynamic playing out here? It just keeps repeating.
I've got leftover, homemade pizza in the fridge at home, and at this point I just want to freaking get there.
Again, I understand. It is frustrating when someone else just will not see how much you care and how hard you try. So do it without expectation of any return acknowledgement. Detach. You are too enmeshed.
Becoming more differentiated is not easy. In fact I am coming more and more to believe that for most dysfunctional people, it is simply not possible. You can make advances, and perhaps over a long time (like years) you can advance.
Better to go with the adult attachment approach. Understand exactly what dynamic is playing out in your marriage. Talk to your wife and try to explain this to her. You will both need to study some. Once you see how reactive you both are, and can agree on the final objective (having a happy marriage), then the process of short-circuiting the power play can actually be quite easy. You need to both be honest with yourself and each other. You both need to agree to think more of the other and make your primary focus the soothing of each other. That can stop the destructive cycle and allow other relationship building ideas to take hold. But this does require that dreaded heart-to-heart talk, IMO.
Lil,
You asked earlier why I hadn’t commented on any narcissism in Mrs Choc. It never occurred to me she was narcissistic, and after thinking through this latest dialogue, I am more convinced that she is not. I think she and Choc have fallen into a typical powerplay, akin to Schnarch’s marital sadism ideas. They each know each other too well, can anticipate what the other will say and how they will react, and are both in self protection mode.
Very good analysis, cobra. I think you're on to something. In this exchange, I agree, I'm not seeing narcissism, but what about the rest of the R?
This might be a good place for the following material on differentiation (non-proprietary information given to me by my therapist on xeroxed paper with no authorship credit).
Choc, this might be a good self-test for you.
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This is a list of the qualities of poorly differentiated and well differentiated people that a counselor gave me and my bf a couple of years ago. She was a therapist who followed the Schnarch philosophy. I suspect you’ll see yourself, your partner, former partners, or your parents here… maybe ALL of them.
Poorly differentiated people:
Pressure others (important others) to accommodate them regardless of that it costs. “If you love me, you will_______! I can’t survive if you don’t do what I want you to. I can’t survive if I do what YOU want.”
Give in (sell out) because of fear of rejection.
Have to leave relationships emotionally or physically in order to resist the pressure to conform (give up themselves).
Accuse others of trying to control them when others resist being controlled.
Monitor how much they disclose about themselves so as to please others or avoid conflict.
Have families where it’s true that “When Dad/Mom is unhappy, ain’t NOBODY happy!”
Have chronic anxiety that is easily stirred up and difficult to calm down.
Take things personally, are on the defensive much of the time. Are easily “hurt” by others, feel “guilty” for having their own needs, feelings, interests, or opinions that are not shared by their important other(S).
Feel responsible for others’ lives and happiness, and for solving their problems.
Feel rejected when important others disagree with them.
Need to control someone else’s behavior or feelings in order for them to manage themselves. In other words, they need someone to do X before they can do/feel Y.
Rely on external activities or substances that are often labeled “addictive” in order to manage their feelings.
The interesting thing about the qualities of good differentiation below is that you may very well react with surprise that it’s not only OKAY to be some of these ways, but it’s actually pretty healthy, for example not solving other people’s problems, or stay calm when a loved one is “losing it.”
Well differentiated people:
Value their self-respect above all else. This is another way of saying they have integrity or that they live by their values.
Manage their own feelings, calm themselves, and then choose how they respond to others rather than reacting out of anxiety.
Confront themselves instead of blaming others for their own circumstances or consequences of their own choices.
Recognize that "it's not about me" when someone near and dear "loses it" or becomes anxious. They don't personalize others' behavior.
Validate themselves rather than rely on others to do it for them all the time.
Refuse to sell themselves out of betray their values in order to maintain a relationship.
Refuse to project their own conflicts onto their partners, and refuse to allow others to project theirs onto them. They fight their own battles within themselves where the fight belongs.
Know the difference between themselves and others: what is me and what is not me.
Take responsibility for themselves. They do not take responsibility for others’ choices or consequences.
Have their feelings rather than their feelings having them.
Have deeply connected relationships, since they can tolerate closeness without undue anxiety about fusing or distancing.
Support the emotional growth of others toward greater differentiation by their refusal to participate in fused behaviors. --------------------
By losing your anger and thereby becoming non-reactive to your wife's faults. The goal right now is to save your marriage, NOT have a good time. Good times come later. Getting your marriage back on track takes hardcore commitment from you.
Deal with your anger.
Don't forget that YOU are not the best looking choice for your wife when you behave this way. She already has a foot out the door. Don't feed her reasons for not wanting to be with you. You need to quickly decide or not that you are going to win her back.
Once you have won her back, then you work on the relationship.
and I had to throw in a thank you for that insight. This is such the hurdle to clear. The anger and frustration are like an evil villain in a movie - you are pretty darned sure the good guy will not get a "W", b/c as you watch the plot unfolding you think "there is just no way that thing can be contained and defeated".
at least that's how I'm feeling on the bad days.
lil, thanks for this differentiation guide. no surprise i am not well-differentiated, but it's helpful to see specifics.
choc, i completely understand your frustration and F This-ness. this board is so amazing for the well-thought, thorough and insightful advice given. i glean so much by lurking here, but walking the talk is the hardest stuff there is. which is why i have yet to do it with any modicum of long term success.
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
It's the ONE thing that is going well for me. I've lost about 7 pounds since getting my lazy azz back in the gym 2 weeks ago, and will be there again tomorrow morning. It feels good!
I've asked the fetching Mrs. Chocolateeyes out on a date 2 out of the last 3 weekends, with not as good results. The homelife is even-keeled, but awkward. I find that we speak less and less to each other, unless we have to. Nothing nasty -- just kinda avoidance.
I have to scoot for a baseball game (I'm my S10's coach) -- I'll write more later.
I find that we speak less and less to each other, That sounds familiar as in BTDT. Staying positive and on track/balancing the conversation is tricky. Sometimes I just risk looking foolish or like a pest and see what happens. Mixed results here.
If R were like fishing, sometimes throwing out a line is all that gets accomplished, but at least I tried fishing. NVNG. I look at my fishing attempt as experience for next time.
Staying positive and on track/balancing the conversation is tricky. Sometimes I just risk looking foolish or like a pest and see what happens. Mixed results here.