Sooo mad, porn but no sex.

[chocolateeyes]

Alpha,

I think your note is a good one, and it breaks my heart to read it. I think you should send it to him, with an end note of "I'd love to discuss this with you" (as I think that it's always best to discuss in person, and not just in e-mail, altho I loooove e-mail to clarify my thoughts and words just so).

Anyone who thinks that rejected affection is just "all about the sex" to an HD partner needs to read notes like this to "get it." I have only ML to my wife twice in the past five years, and it's a long story that I won't go into on your thread, but suffice to say that I miss the affection, and the kisses, and the thought & love BEHIND them, 50x more than I miss the sex.

Good luck with your sitch. I'm sorry I don't have specific advice for you, only because I feel so unqualified to give it, but I do feel for you.

Choc.

[NOPkins]

Hi, alpha123.

What are the chances that you can get him to read the first chapter in Michele's SSM?

-NOPkins-

[alpha123]

Chocolate eyes, thanks for taking the time to reply. I really don't know how you cope with that, this is tearing me up, I don't think I could cope with less.
Last night when we went to bed, I tried to snuggle but he was having none of it, and I'm laying there wondering what I can do to make him enjoy me. Qishing I was at my own place on my own, because then there's no expectation. I've been thinking of taking something to lower my libido, but actually I was quite busy yesterday and got on with some things of my own and found that I wasn't as craving of his affection as I usually am, so will try to keep a PMA.

Nopkins, thanks, I'll send it as a link with me email.

[cjhoffy]

Alpha, your situation sounds very similar to mine. I would like more affection in my marriage as well. I have been married 22 years and spent most of the last several years being mad and resentful at my husband for not understanding that flirting would make sex so much more interesting for me. He feels that kissing goodbye/hello, an occasional hug or his feet on my lap is enough affection. I would love a caress while I'm cooking or doing the dishes, or even a grope--anything sexual outside of actually having sex. He doesn't seem to see a need for anticipation.

Sex is also routine. If he initiates, it is after we have both showered and gone to bed. He always lays on his back when he first goes to bed. If he rolls toward me and caresses my arm, I know what he wants. He takes a long time to do anything else. I don't think either of us know what we should do next. He won't talk during sex and makes very little noise at all. I have asked him to tell me what I can do different, he says, "It's fine." If I ask him what he likes, he says, "Anything." I have read sex books and try to do some of the things that are suggested, but I can't tell if he is liking it or not. I know I should ask while I am doing it, but I am worried about his response to that. He tells me I am too analytical. The same is true for tellling him or showing him what I like or dislike. His feeling get hurt and he quits trying. He rarely initiates anymore because I "analyze it too much."

Our relationship has been improving in the last couple of years. We used to have yelling matches when we disagreed on anything. I recently found out that I have a form of depression called dysthymia. After starting antidepressants, I have been in much better control of my anger and the yelling matches have stopped. I am also able to see his side of things better. I have been able to figure out many things I have been doing that are contributing to his lack of caring enough about my needs. He is starting to listen to me more.

H loves to tell me that I "always" have to have my way and that he "never" gets his way. I just realized the other day what I do that makes him feel that way. When we have a difference of opinion, I state mine but don't feel that he considered my side. So I keep insisting that my way might work. He insists his way is better. He goes away mad and I do it my way to show him it could work. It's not that I want to be right, I just want to feel that my idea was really considered. I sent him an e-mail letting him know my realization. When we went to bed that night, he told me that he appreciates e-mails like that. He offered me some ice cream last night.

So, the affection and acts of love is getting better, but we still need to do something about the sex.

I hope you haven't sent the note to your H. He sounds like he may be feeling kind of like my H. An e-mail like that would probably offend him. Mine would say, "It's always about you! You're always complaining about your needs!" Maybe you need to figure out what needs he has that aren't being met. Resist the urge to tell him anymore about what you want or need. Concentrate on him. Find out what else you are doing that irritates him and stop doing it. Do things he will enjoy or appreciate.

[Crazy Eddie]

Been there, done that. I've been guilty of neglecting someone who wants sex in favor of porn by myself.

How come? What's porn got that a flesh-and-blood woman that I can actually touch doesn't?

First, of course, it's got a complete disinterest in my shortcomings as a person. The actress wants sex, and doesn't care what you've done wrong or failed to do right and isn't interested in testing you and won't lose their attraction to you by discovering your insecurities.

And the actress doesn't show any insecurities herself. She likes her body, she's proud of it, and she loves having it touched and using it to touch someone else. She likes the guy's body and can't get enough of it. She's positively eager to try things, and she instantly gets into it. She can't control herself, she doesn't want to control herself, and she certainly doesn't waste any time forgetting about everything else but the sex.

And the sex always goes well, there's never any awkwardness, she never fails to orgasm, and she's always smiling and out of breath afterwards.

And, of course, there's the variety. Can you be red-haired and freckled and Asian and 18 years old and long-haired and Hispanic and blonde and short and large-breasted and tall and small-breasted and athletic and slim and curvaceous? All at the same time? I didn't think so.

And erectile problems may prevent you from penetrating a woman, but they pose no problems in interacting with your hand. And porn won't be left sexually frustrated and cranky and disappointed in you if your erection just won't cooperate at all.

I guess a guy is prone to fall into this trap when he's got issues with himself that he wants to hide, making it difficult to get naked and intimate, or if he's got issues with you that his conflict avoidance prevents him from coming to you with. Either way, there's a definite problem that needs to be addressed.

Now, even with a healthy sex life, I still like porn. Hell, I've been known to have sex, enjoy the afterglow, catch my breath, then later go to the computer and enjoy some porn. No matter how healthy we and our relationships are, we males still like variety.

[heatherg]

Eddy, your post turns me into Crazy Heather. I have such problems with this, I honestly don't know where to begin.

I don't have a problem with porn per se. I don't have a problem with another woman catching my H's eye (BUT he better not let me CATCH him looking at her, lol). We're human beings, we're going to be attracted to one another, but I would request that my SO be tactful and respectful about it and I would do the same when a hottie catches my attention.

I do have a problem with my SO seeking SEXUAL GRATIFICATION elsewhere. Seeking it out, not just being caught off guard by someone you find attractive. To me, it's cheating.

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you. In my not so recent past, that's probably what this would be. However, I'm ready to refine my opinion on this matter, to get down to the bottom of why I feel the way I do, so I'm hoping that you will converse with me in more depth on this topic.

Maybe I feel the way I do because I'm insecure. But, while I may be insecure, I feel there's more to it than that because seeking out pleasure from other women, even if it's just pictures of them, is a betrayal IMO. It's a betrayal even on my really good days where I really like what I see in the mirror and am feeling particularly good about myself, so it's more than just insecurity.

Oh, and I'm assuming that you're describing your fantasy, what you envision when you look at porn, when you talked about what the 'actress' wants, doesn't want, feels or doesn't feel. Because, my guess is that very few are as healthy sexually as you think. I just read an article about an editor for a porn magazine-didn't disclose which mag, only that it was a major one. The article had lots to say about the women who pose, but I'm not going to get into all that in this post.

[Crazy Eddie]

Oh, and I'm assuming that you're describing your fantasy, what you envision when you look at porn, when you talked about what the 'actress' wants, doesn't want, feels or doesn't feel. Because, my guess is that very few are as healthy sexually as you think. I just read an article about an editor for a porn magazine-didn't disclose which mag, only that it was a major one. The article had lots to say about the women who pose, but I'm not going to get into all that in this post.

Of course I can't read minds, especially in a video, but there are scenes where the actress really convincingly appears to be having the time of her life. Those are the videos I like. There are also videos where the actress is just visibly radiating disgust, contempt, or boredom. Those videos seem to be in the majority, and I absolutely hate them.

Whether the former are just really good actresses or people that actually are having a blast playing their favorite contact sport, showing off, and getting paid for it, I couldn't conclusively say. But I'm convinced that they're having a good time, and so I have a good time watching them.

[Crazy Eddie]

Eddy, your post turns me into Crazy Heather. I have such problems with this, I honestly don't know where to begin.

I don't have a problem with porn per se. I don't have a problem with another woman catching my H's eye (BUT he better not let me CATCH him looking at her, lol). We're human beings, we're going to be attracted to one another, but I would request that my SO be tactful and respectful about it and I would do the same when a hottie catches my attention.

I do have a problem with my SO seeking SEXUAL GRATIFICATION elsewhere. Seeking it out, not just being caught off guard by someone you find attractive. To me, it's cheating.

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you. In my not so recent past, that's probably what this would be. However, I'm ready to refine my opinion on this matter, to get down to the bottom of why I feel the way I do, so I'm hoping that you will converse with me in more depth on this topic.

To me there's a difference between neglecting her in favor of porn, and turning to porn when she's not interested anyway.

Does it matter to you whether you were in the mood for sex when he turned to porn? Does it matter whether it was possible for the two of you to have sex when he turned to porn? Or is that irrelevant in your mind?

The other reasons why cheating is a no-no (you might catch something and pass it to your spouse, you might form an emotional connection, somebody might get knocked up) are not issues in porn.

Maybe I feel the way I do because I'm insecure. But, while I may be insecure, I feel there's more to it than that because seeking out pleasure from other women, even if it's just pictures of them, is a betrayal IMO. It's a betrayal even on my really good days where I really like what I see in the mirror and am feeling particularly good about myself, so it's more than just insecurity.

Does finding out that he chose porn over you cause insecurity when there was none before? We may like ourselves, but we still want to be validated by others and hate to be anti-validated by others.

[heatherg]

To me there's a difference between neglecting her in favor of porn, and turning to porn when she's not interested anyway.


That sounds like rationalization to me. And it also doesn't jive with your statement below

Hell, I've been known to have sex, enjoy the afterglow, catch my breath, then later go to the computer and enjoy some porn.

In this scenario, your wife just met your sexual needs and vice versa, so apparently it's not a matter of neglect for either of you. When you're on the computer, you're seeking out other women to meet your needs, sexual needs that you promised your wife that she and only she would be meeting for the rest of your life. If she were neglecting your needs, which you tried to talk to her about and make clear to her like some of the guys on this board have, then porn may or may not be cheating because at that point, she may have chosen not fulfill HER M vows, which is to meet those needs. I understand that we are sexual creatures, and we have to have a release for that. I feel it should be within the context of the M and porn does not fulfill that criteria unless it's done together.

Does it matter to you whether you were in the mood for sex when he turned to porn? Does it matter whether it was possible for the two of you to have sex when he turned to porn? Or is that irrelevant in your mind?

I wouldn't be angry or hurt if I found out he used it a couple times if he was out of town or something. I still don't think it should become a habit in ANY shape or form. But like I said, I understand the need for release. I still think phone sex or pictures of your partner or a home video is preferred to looking elsewhere if it is going to be a habitual thing.

The other reasons why cheating is a no-no (you might catch something and pass it to your spouse, you might form an emotional connection, somebody might get knocked up) are not issues in porn.

You missed the number one reason why cheating is a no-no. Because you promised you wouldn't. The promise is that you will foresake all others. That goes farther than just in a hotel room. It MEANS you foresake all others. It doesn't mean you foresake them in person, but seek them out in picture form. It doesn't mean that you marry a white woman and then seek out pictures of Asians to see if they make you hotter. You really ought to have experimented with that BEFORE you made your decision.

Does finding out that he chose porn over you cause insecurity when there was none before? We may like ourselves, but we still want to be validated by others and hate to be anti-validated by others.

Maybe that's it. I find it extemely upsetting. I think I'm a pretty attractive girl, why is it never enough? I'm not as attractive as a super model and even their husbands aren't satisfied. Your comment

No matter how healthy we and our relationships are, we males still like variety.

makes me pretty angry because you don't get variety in M. If you want variety, you should have stayed single. There are times when I want variety too, when I wish I had the luxury of having my needs met outside my M. Guess what? I can't because it's cheating and I said I wouldn't do that. My job is to love my H for who he is and talk out the things that aren't going so well. If he's not meeting my needs, it's our job to work it out.

[Crazy Eddie]

To me there's a difference between neglecting her in favor of porn, and turning to porn when she's not interested anyway.


That sounds like rationalization to me. And it also doesn't jive with your statement below

Hell, I've been known to have sex, enjoy the afterglow, catch my breath, then later go to the computer and enjoy some porn.

In this scenario, your wife just met your sexual needs and vice versa, so apparently it's not a matter of neglect for either of you.

I didn't say porn was a response to neglect. I was saying that porn was a problem (when it was) because it was a cause of neglect. In the situation quoted above, her needs are all taken care of... she won't be interested in a repeat performance for days. And I can't say I'm neglected either... it's just something to do for fun when everything and everybody else is taken care of. And a source of ideas for next time, which she seems to appreciate.

You missed the number one reason why cheating is a no-no. Because you promised you wouldn't. The promise is that you will foresake all others. That goes farther than just in a hotel room. It MEANS you foresake all others. It doesn't mean you foresake them in person, but seek them out in picture form. It doesn't mean that you marry a white woman and then seek out pictures of Asians to see if they make you hotter. You really ought to have experimented with that BEFORE you made your decision.

Yeah, I see your point. I have a different interpretation of those promises than you do, probably for self-serving reasons. So far it hasn't blown up in my face. Yet.

Would you say that a spouse that looked for "loopholes" in the agreement would make you feel less secure about his commitment? Would you say that a spouse that wholeheartedly embraced monogomay and interpreted it broadly would make you feel more secure even though it meant he held you to the same standard? Would it make you feel more secure because he held you to the same standard?

Does finding out that he chose porn over you cause insecurity when there was none before? We may like ourselves, but we still want to be validated by others and hate to be anti-validated by others.

Maybe that's it. I find it extemely upsetting. I think I'm a pretty attractive girl, why is it never enough? I'm not as attractive as a super model and even their husbands aren't satisfied. Your comment

No matter how healthy we and our relationships are, we males still like variety.

makes me pretty angry because you don't get variety in M. If you want variety, you should have stayed single.

No you don't usually get variety in marriage. Not because lack of variety is a positive good, but because the usual ways of getting variety are destructive to the marital bond. Should you embrace lack of physical and aesthetic variety as an integral and desirable part of marriage, or regard it as an undesirable side-effect that can be addressed by better tools?

(I guess a better answer than porn would be hooking up the brain to different bodies as desired, but that's not an option yet)

There are times when I want variety too, when I wish I had the luxury of having my needs met outside my M. Guess what? I can't because it's cheating and I said I wouldn't do that. My job is to love my H for who he is and talk out the things that aren't going so well. If he's not meeting my needs, it's our job to work it out.

Agreed. Withdrawal and neglect, for any reason, is bad. A strong connection and a commitment to meeting each other's needs is good.