My thread finally got locked but I wanted to respond about Byron Katie. The problem I have is that I can work through an assertion and its direct opposite and end up in the same place. The only thing that "is" would be the persons behavior, thoughts and such cannot be proven to be "true". Therefore, "I was wrong about H" and "I was right about H" end me up in the same place. H's behavior is what "is" - he is supportive, he is loving, he is kind AND he is not as sexual as I would like.
I mean, I guess there are some guys who would have taken their wives in their arms a few days after an accident like that and passionately kissed her, maybe even brought her to orgasm without sex knowing that they weren't supposed to have sex - and they would do that for the same reason that my H does some things he does - because they deeply love her and are so grateful to have her still around despite her stupidity. Strangely, my H said something to someone who came over to see if I was ok like, "Well, since we can't have sex..."
I offered to cancel our trip next weekend (we are going away without the kids) due to the expense and the fact that I suck as company right now (I still keep crying once or twice a day, am having trouble sleeping and feel more anxiety than I would like to admit about driving to work tomorrow). H said he thinks we need to go now more than ever. I just hope I can have myself back together by then.
Karen, I know how much you wanted that comfort from your H... rats
The thing that I find helpful about BK is not that you try to talk yourself out of wanting stuff or try to convince yourself that what you're experiencing isn't true. The key is "how do you act WHEN YOU BELIEVE that thought even if it IS true?"
It's not about whether outside events are true or not or whether your partner is/isn't what s/he should be or not. It's about what kind of an internal world do you create for yourself when you get your truth from your thoughts.
Here's an example: "I should lose weight."
Is this true? yes-- I'm significantly over my proper, healthy weight
Can you absolutely know this is true (that you should lose weight) well, I'm overweight... not at a life-threatening level, but I know I would feel better if I did. As for being absolutely positive that I should lose weight... I'm not absolutely positively swear-on-my-whoever's-grave sure
Here's the important one: How do you act when you believe the thought "I should lose weight"? I obsess about food. I police myself constantly. I play games with myself about food and "cheat" on myself. I get mad at my bf when he bakes something wonderful-- is he just taunting me? I get mad at people who can eat anything they want and not gain, like I could do when I was younger. And on and on...
What if it was impossible for you to think the thought: "I should lose weight"? Hmmm... that's hard to imagine... but I guess I'd just eat when I felt like it. I might overeat some, but when the food isn't forbidden, I'd have permission from myself to stop when I was full. Now, I feel I have to sneak snacks. I guess if I couldn't have the thought that I should lose weight, I'd just be okay with food and go on about my business. It would free up a lot of mental energy that I use obsessing about food right now.
You could apply this process to the thought "my H would have sex with me more if I had bigger boobs."
Can you absolutely know that's true? For one thing, no-- but even if you're positive it's true, how do you treat him, how do you treat YOU, when you believe that thought?
This method is not about talking yourself out of stuff. It's about being kind to yourself, and not creating a nest of internal barbed wire because of stuff going on with others that you can't control.
Now I'm really probably going to go too far... but take the thought, "My husband should have comforted me physically after my accident."
Is that true? yes... that would have been a perfectly normal, nice thing to do-- lots of men would have done that, and I certainly would have done it if the shoe were on the other foot
Can you absolutely know that's true? God, I want so badly for it to be true... given what I know of him, I'm not surprised he didn't. Damn. He still SHOULD have!
How do you act when you believe that thought (that he should have comforted me)? I'm cranky. I'm irritated. I feel lonely, abandoned. It was really pretty traumatic-- I need comfort, dammit. Why can't he be like other guys and reach out to me physically! Oh God... these thoughts go round and round in my head.
What if, by some magical means, it was simply impossible for you to form the thought "he should have comforted me"? Hmmm... well, I guess if I needed comfort, I'd have gone to him and crawled up in his lap, and told him how scary it was. But what if he rejected me?
Even if he rejected you, let's carry the fantasy that you cannot have the thought, "he should comfort me"-- So he's being stand-off-ish, but I still need comfort. I guess I would just be persistent until he came around. He does love me, and he doesn't want me to hurt. I guess the accident scared the sh!t out of him, too-- what if something had happened to me AND the baby. That would have absolutely devastated him!
Now turn it around: "He should comfort me." I should comfort him. Wow. If I want comfort, I shouldn't wait for it-- I should give it.
There's another turnaround... I should comfort me.
Do you see that by focusing on how he is not doing what he should be doing, you are actually cutting off the comfort you could be giving yourself? He's not reaching out to you... and you're busy thinking about how he's not reaching out to you... so who's over here taking care of YOU?
End of fantasy dialogue...
Anyway... I apologize if I went overboard there. When I first encountered BK a couple of years ago, I thought she was trying to make us stop wanting things... but what's she's trying to do is keep us from beating ourselves up and denying ourselves because of other people.
Karen, you've been stuck in a place (like a lot of us) for a long time where you focus on your H and how he's not what you want him to be. And yet you are committed to this marriage and haven't considered a D (which I applaud). It seems to me that you must find a way to be not only okay with the way things are, but joyful... Really digging in to the BK stuff, I believe, is a route to that place. But you have to carry it all the way to the end. You can't shortcut it in your head.
There is a dialogue on the audio book Loving What Is with a child abuse survivor that enables the woman to reconnect with the child SHE abandoned when she suffered abuse at the hands of her stepfather (this was repeated abuse over a period of years, involving penetration-- hard to listen to). The course of the dialogue absolutely blew me away. Certainly what he did was wrong, immoral, criminal. But SHE abandoned herself because of it. Even if it was HIS fault (which clearly it was), through this dialogue and rigorous examination of the truth, you can hear her voice as she reclaims the little eight-year old girl.
If we can let go of thoughts of who's right and who's wrong, it can open doors. This is powerful stuff.
Karen- I'm so sorry to hear about your accident and so happy to hear that all were safe.
Stop feeling so guilty. Think about it this way. If the same thing had happened to your H you would have been equally supportive, right? You're a good person too, right? Also, all the "selfish" demands for sex and attention that you've been making on your marriage are equally balanced by the "selfish" demands for your goodwill about living in a state of near celibacy that your H has been making.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I am SO SORRY about the accident, but I am so glad to know you and baby and DD2 are okay.
Having BTDT myself, there is often an enormous amount of guilt that follows a potentially life threatening situation, especially when you are at fault... simply because it is difficult to turn off the 'what if' scenarios that keep running through your head.
That's normal, and it will fade in time. Try to go easy on yourself. Get out and drive around as much as you can (climbing back up on the horse).
Lil - No, I understand how BK works except this...I didn't really think that H SHOULD have comforted me physically more than he did. I honestly didn't feel deserving of what he did. H rubbed my leg, patted me, held my hand. Did the things that make H, H.
How could I be mad? I was just commenting that some guys would have handled that part differently. My H's behavior is totally predictable in that regard and for the same reason so is his emotional support of me. I can be content in knowing that he will always say, "Accidnts happen, It's only a car, I'm just glad that you are ok" and then without comment, repercussion or remark, get a rental for me, look at new cars to make sure I have something nice, reliable and safe. I know a lot of H's that would have made the whole thing much less pleasant for their wives.
So, where I am left in this sitch with Byron Katie is looking at my assertions of being at fault in both the accident and my wishes for my marriage in general. H is just H, that is what is. When I accept that then I treat H fairly and lovingly and yet still, have a spot left unfulfilled in my marriage which is the part of what I desire in the physical side of the marriage. How do I treat myself when I accept H for who he is and how he physically responds in relationship - well, it depends. Sometimes I treat myself well and lovingly and can reach out to H and sometimes I feel pretty empty and alone. That is where BK always end me up - H is pretty standard, I am mercurial, changeable, sometimes expecting, sometimes just wanting, sometimes just plain pissed when my expectations aren't met and mostly, pretty darned grateful and happy that the rest of things are as good as they are.
I have been stuck but I haven't so much been stuck in not understanding that H is who he is. I have been stuck in trying to figure out "why" and thinking if I knew why then there would be a way to undo the "why". You know what? I don't think there is. There is much of H that I will never understand and there is much of me that he clearly does not understand either. However, he just steadfastly seems to love me in all my tattered glory and I just keep looking for what isn't there (Cemar and I have something in common there).
Lil, I always appreciate your thoughtful replies. I think the book "Surrendering to marriage" really spoke to me and I should probably reread that one too. It talks pretty candidly about marital dissapointments and reality. Like the book the "Good Enough Parent" there is a "Good Enough" marriage that alot of people already live in. I am one of them.
MJ and Corri,
Thanks that does help. It was hard to drive to work today (especially in an unfamiliar car). I stayed in the right lane, let every car go before venturing into any intersection and basically drove like an old lady or a new driver. I'm sure I will get better with time.
The best part of the whole thing has been watching DD2 work through the whole thing in her own head. At least five times/day every day this weekend we went through the following series:
Mommy, your car is broken. (Yes honey, it is)
It was your fault. (She heard me say this. Yes honey, it was).
I was scared and the police came. (Yes honey, that's right).
I got a new car seat. (Yes, do you like it?) Yes, Mommy.
Daddy got you a new car. (Yes, we are borrowing this one. We will give it back soon and get a car to drive all the time).
(It is all right honey. You are all right and Mommy and Joseph are all right too. Soon we will have a new car).
Sorry to hear about your accident Karen. I don't think there is anything wrong with re-evaluating the M at this point and feeling appeciative for what you DO have, not what you DON'T have. I remember you saying D was not an option in this M and that you were in it for the long haul. So why make yourself miserable by dwelling on the negative. I think your accident has helped you put life in perspective. I hope you can maintain that sense of appreciation for your H and have a happy M and family.
Thanks. I know I will probably get to a point where I am frustrated with H about the sexual relationship again. That seems to be an inevitable part of this R. However, maybe the lack of sex is equally reflective of character flaws of mine as much as his.
I'm just tired of hitting my head against a brick wall. Yes, the accident did put a few things in perspective. Having a healthy family is priceless, having an H who cares about me and our family is priceless, sex is icing. Sometimes I get the cake with the icing and sometimes just the cake. But hey, cake is pretty good on its own too.
Don't get me wrong. I will never get to the point of being a doormat about this. I will never go happily without sex for weeks on end, never feel like I don't want an H who chases me around the house with an ice cube for nefarious purposes...(Oops sorry, HD tangent there).
You get my point. It it snowing/raining/freezing raining this afternoon in the Baltimore/VA/DC/Southern Maryland area and I am supposed to pick up my new car and the check from the bank this afternoon. H is so pleased with the deal he got on the car.
It it snowing/raining/freezing raining this afternoon in the Baltimore/VA/DC/Southern Maryland area and I am supposed to pick up my new car and the check from the bank this afternoon.
You picked the perfect day! Nobody else is out driving around in this crap. I had the easiest morning commute in six months.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I know I will probably get to a point where I am frustrated with H about the sexual relationship again. That seems to be an inevitable part of this R
Well, the SL that is lacking may be inevitable but your frustrations about it aren't. We've discussed owning our own feelings ad nauseum on this board but I think it really does fit here again.
Quote:
I will never get to the point of being a doormat about this. I will never go happily without sex for weeks on end, never feel like I don't want an H who chases me around the house with an ice cube for nefarious purposes...(
I don't think you would be a doormat for surrendering a little bit of your wants here. I've gone weeks without sex and maintained a happy R with H. Am I thrilled he's not chasing me with the ice cubes? No. But I choose to focus now on the positive. It can be done. Just because you have a "want" doesn't mean it is going to be met. Hairdog kept talking about wants on his thread. His W came right back at him saying she Wants things to and listed off a few. Doesn't mean she is going to get them. I think the real problem in many M on this board is not that the Want is not being met, but that you don't feel like your spouse cares. I little care and understanding can go a long way.
On a weather note, it's been in the single digits here and we are going to get slammed with snow tonight. Maybe I won't have to go to work tomorrow!
rats
