advice needed - sex and moving out??

[ourcrisis]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and I am so glad I fount this
website. I have been seeing improvements since I started
DBing. But here I am stuck on a few issues and need some advice. Here is the background info:

Background:
We have known each other for 20 years, married for 14. We have two sons, age
6 and 8, both great, well balanced kids. Marriage has been pretty normal,
though not very romantic. We moved from US to Singapore in 2003 due to
husband's international assignment. I quit my engineering manager job
to concentrate on the family.

DH: 38, ACOA, very responsible type due to taking care of all his sisters
since he was young. He is very committed to the kids
OW: 34, also ACOA (dad gambler, mom alcoholic), had a brother who always took care of her.
Me: 38, normal middle class family upbringing, introvert

How it happened (a very short version)
This is from what DH told me. I personally beleived the emotional part of A started
earlier than April. Physical part started in April or May. OW's brother, also
DH's friend, got sick all of a sudden and it turned out to be cancer. DH felt
he needed to take care of her and helped her out in many ways, including pursuing
her. Brother died in August.
early Oct: I confronted him on the increasing night out till 4am. He confessed
and seemed very guilty. I had the normal blaming, yelling, etc. After a few days,
I said, "Severe all contacts" which he later decided he could not. Another month
of more anguish. I said, "Leave her or leave me". We started counseling.
During my reading, we discovered the term ACOA, midlife crisis, all of these
new things, as well as how affairs affect our relationship.
mid-Nov: He finally decided "Since he cannot leave her now, he has no choice but
to leave me."
The reasons he told me are:
1. He cannot leave her at this time because her brother just passed away, her
father died a year ago. He is really worried she will do something stupid or
get influence from all her "wrong" friends
2. He discovered something that he never had before, I do not exactly understand him,
but I think he discovered to have fun and to be carefree, and not to plan
anything, something he never experienced before. He needs to explore that
3. (I don't understand this one). He said he is being selfish, he wants to
help her until she can have her self-esteem back and stand on her own.
Currently is not a good time to leave her.
4. He did state that he was not divorcing me, and may not work out with her, just
he is leaving me because my choice is "leave me or leave her".
5. This one is not directly from him, but from my observation. He felt that
I am a very guarded person (which I realize now I am), and all these years
I led a more private life and he shares his daily details with me. He said
the OW would tell him little silly things in daily life which I don't.
When he told me his decision, natually I pleaded, cried, all sorts. At some point,
I mentioned I asked him if he can re-discover himself without leaving the marriage.
He kept going back to "since he could not leave her, he has to leave me"
Somewhere I said "do not have sex with her." I forgot what led to that statement.
After a few days when I calmed down, I decided that is not a fair request and
told him I retrieved my request. Strangely, from Nov till now, early Jan,
he is still honoring that (though he said he would get cornered by her soon)

Due to the holidays and all the planned overseas trip and our counselor on vacation,
we are postponing working out the separation agreement till after the new year.
Starting mid-Nov, I discovered Michele's books and started reading. From then
till now, there have been many changes.
Mid-Nov: He was ready to walk out just any minute we had an argument. He kept
saying he loved her and he loved me at the same time.
Early Jan: He has been not that eager to find an apt. He has not had sex with her.
He has not gone out with her much and not till very late at all. We had
great fun together doing things because (I) figured I am going to enjoy
my last months with a partner and is trying to do all the things which
I won't do alone (romantic dinners, getting more drunk, dancing, etc.)
He is also saying a lot (esp. after sex) that he loves me much more
than he loves her (guilty talk?)
Two nights ago, I was telling him how the separation will affect the kids
decades down the road vs staying together, he mentioned may be he should
stay in the guest room till we move back to the US in the summer.
I asked, "What then?" He said then the kids and I will have emotional support
from grandparents and families. I told him I need to consider that.
Today, he went back to saying about finding a place again.
He also talked more about the details of visitation, etc.
We talked about the sex part and how we both really enjoyed it.
He wanted to see if he can still come back and have sex with me after he moves
out. I told him, "i cannot due to safety reasons. I will sleep with him
if he does not have sex with her." No answer from him.
I have also strongly requested (bad move!!!) that he use protection
with her to avoid the complication of a baby. No answer from him.
He kept saying he did not want to give me hope since he cannot guarantee
anything.
One more thing, unless he decides to ditch the kids (which he won't), we
are moving back to the US in the summer because there is no reason for me
to stay anymore and the kids are going with me. He said he is committed
to the kids and will follow wherever I go. As with OW, he does not know
and will leave that up to her.

Here, I need some advice from you all:
- Should I have him stay in the guest room till the summer? Or have him move out?
On one hand, having him stay will certainly increase our time together,
and making him spending time with her more difficult since he is still
guilty contacting her in front of me (eventhough I don't put pressure on him)
On the other hand, living him outside will sure show him all the comfort he
is missing at home, like dinner, laundry, family time with the kids. Also,
if he really needs time to be alone to work out his feelings, may be he is
better living outside.
But of course, he will almost certainly sleep with her if he lives outside.
And she may spend the night, etc.
- Sex. I can either: not sleep with him at all, sleeps with him if he
promises to use condom with her, sleeps with him if he uses condom with me.
Well, what do you all think??? According to him, he enjoys it with me
more than with her. I feel being used to let him sleep with two persons,
but not overwhelmingly and will do it if it helps. Afterall, I do enjoy it.
- Assuming the OW really needs help, should I just turn a blind eye and
tell him to do what he needs to do and come back? I guess the point is
I don't really buy that a mature, married-before, career women will
actually fall apart without a man whom she was intimate for such
a short time (despite the fact that DH sort of became replacement
for her dead brother plus more) He did mention in passing once that
after he moves out, he plans to be very irritating to her so she will dump him.
Frankly, I do not buy that...
- anyone who had similar experience and/or advice? I am trying to read
as many post as possible and it has been helping.

I will certainly have more questions later. But I guess this is enough for
a first post :-) I do plan to post more as i can say all the methods are
working so far. There really have been a big change in DH and myself.
Of course, he still won't leave her for some reason.....

Talk to you later, Thanks,
ourcrisis

[ourcrisis]

Today is Jan 5, Friday.
Please read my initial post and comment on whether I should let him move out or not,
and the sex part. I am still confused as to what to do. DH brought it up yesterday again.
Read on.
DH went out with her yesterday night. Thursday nights have become the de facto night out
with her. On one hand, I don't really want to know about it. On the other hand, I am
the type who always want to know every detail before making a decision. But anyway,
dh has been telling me more and more details. I texted him for something and he did not
reply for another hour and apologized because he was swimming. Then less than 2 hours
later he was home. I assumed that's enough time for some dinner and that's it.
He told me if I wanted to go out on Friday night (I just joined a Friday bowling group
and showed up once so far), he would watch the kids. I said not this week and probably
made a mistake asking about his Friday plans. He said not sure yet.

Friday morning, I said if he's not doing anything, we could go out. (BIG mistake on
my part, I guess). He's still not sure. Sure enough, later he called and said
he wanted to go out Sat instead because he wants to save the weekends for family
(meaning, he is going out Friday night with OW). And this is the funny part. He
said, "Is it OK?" What AM I SUPPOSED TO SAY!!! "No, NOT OK, STAY HOME!!!". No,
I said, "No comment". I did tell him I would probably go to the gym. He
went silent because I know he always want one parent home with the kids and
the fact that both of us not being home puts the guilt on HIM.

Oh, this Friday morning he brought up the subject of staying in the guest room
again. He had been switching back and forth these two days. I told him I still
don't know. I said I would like him to stay because then we can wait to tell
the kids till we are back in the US. On the other hand, I don't know if I can
stand him going out. He told me he also ddidn't know if I could stand him
not coming home at night, etc. He said he did not want to see me SO hurt
by seeing things, which is why he may want to move out so I won't see. But
he still wants the sex, hugging, everything else???

Anyway, Sat we are taking the kids biking. Sunday our whole family has signed up
for inline skating classes so that would be fun. Feb 1 is his target date to
move out. Now I am just cramming in fun activities. Monday school starts so
I will be busy again with school volunteering work. I have not told any friends
about this A yet, though with my face one or two friends probably have guessed
something is wrong. I plan to tell one of them next week for support.

Thanks for reading

[Heywyre]

Yikes ourcrisis!!

I don't know but there is NO WAY I would be willing to put myself in the situation you are presently in. I know you are a ways from home and all but to be having sex with your H knowing full well he is still seeing the OW (and you can pretty much guarantee they are still having sex too).

comment on whether I should let him move out or not

If he wants to move out, it really has nothing to do with you letting him. You have to let him make that decision. You have to let go of the control issue and make him responsible for his own actions. By you making the decisions he has yet another excuse to point fingers - i.e. "well it was you that wanted it that way".

Let him make the choice. In the meantime, take care of yourself and GAL (get a life) - do things that YOU like to do - without him! Show him that you don't need him to survive, that you are strong without him (even if you know you aren't). That doesn't mean you have to be cruel it just means it will give you more strength to get yourself through this - regardless of the outcome

take care

[ourcrisis]

Hi, Heywyre,

Thank you so much for you response.
Am I being naive in still trusting him of not havine sex with OW?
The thing is I do and still trust him in almost everything. It may seem strange
but even before he told me about OW, there were hints that he dropped. Looking back,
I was just too trusting in him to admit it (Humm, may be I do trust him too much.
But so far, his actions are showing that he is still not having sex with her
(let's just say he proves it everytime afterwards with me after he goes out with her).

Having said that, today is Jan 6, 5:24am in the morning. He was out with her (Friday night).
He texted me both 1:30 and 4am, saying he is still keeping our deal (no sex). But 4am
he sms'ed saying he's too drunk to come home, though still keeping our deal. Now,
I am going to confront him on being honest with me tomorrow. Honesty is my number one
virtue. I will need to restate that it is his choice, and not my request of him
not having sex with her, BUT if he does it with her, then he is not doing it
with me. I am so curious as to where he stayed but I won't ask. This is tough,
my heart and gut feeling tells me it is really true because he is truly a honorable man.
But I am probably thinking what you all are thinking, "Yeh, right and you BELIEVE THAT!!!"
Ha ha.

Still thinking about the moving issue. There are 2 parts. Do I let him stay or kick him out?
That part is my decision. If I let him stay, does he stay or not? I believe right now
he is not sure whether to stay or not, which is why he is asking me. Heywyre, I think
you are right in that he needs to make his decision. However, I am not sure if I should
let him stay if he chooses to. One part of me thinks it is much better for the kids,
logistics-wise and emotion-wise. And of course, this will certainly send a signal
to OW. OTOH, I don't want him to enjoy the comfort at home and think he can have
best of both worlds. May be it's best for him to know what he is missing.
What do you all think?

By the way, I hope you all have as happy a new year as it can be.
Thanks for the advice, I am going to the gym regularly now to keep the DB weight loss.
I am actually liking my body much better, which I told dh is about the only good
thing that comes out of this.

Another few hours and see what happens when he comes home.

ourcrisis

[~Sol]

(repeats below)...

[~Sol]

ourcrisis,

I just want to put my 2 cents in. If he is still seeing OW you should set some boundaries. Having the best of both worlds is NOT an option, but only you know if he should move out or not. If he is still at home, you have a better chance at DBing and seeing results, but the other side of the coin is that he is having his cake and eating too. I had to struggle with that and I choked on my pride and remained at home. I was ready to leave or my W was. It was a weird sitch (still is), about splitting up over a 24 year-old punk. My W has fallen to a maturity level of a 13-year old, and she still acts like one from time to time.

Your H is messed up in the head. He's married to you, you both have little ones at home, I mean c'mon!!! He's acting like a child running around with OW and he still wants sex? Stick to your boundaries! You should not have sex with him whatsoever if he is with OW. You don't really know if they are having it or not, so stick to this rule.

As far as him staying or not, let him make that choice. You should have no guilt in this decision. Let it be all his. Keep DBing......

[Heywyre]

I guess it is something YOU have to decide, not him. Do you want him to stay and, if so, for what reasons? Just because you are feeling vulnerable, weak etc. - lousy reasons!!! This will just make you more dependent on him and therefore give him YOUR power - take it back!!!

There is no way I would stand for my H still seeing the OW and staying out all night and then thinking I would believe him when he says "we're not having sex, really" - GIVE ME A FRIGGIN BREAK - I doubt very much they aren't having sex. And, if they aren't why the constant having to see her, constant staying out all night etc. etc. - he needs to grow up and stop acting like a 16 year old. He has responsibilities, a wife, young children and it sounds like they have more maturity than he does

[ourcrisis]

Guess what? Today Jan 6, 6:30am. He came home. He's sleeping now. I will update you
all later after the weekend. Take care. (my computer is acting up and my reply
is not showing up so keeping this real short)

(sol1696, sorry about W. 24 yr old punk!!!! For me, OW supposedly is JUST LIKE ME!!! go figure)