And you're right about the divorce. She wants me to want what she wants.
I've seen this from her in several areas, down to picking a restaurant. I'll go back to the "you always give into me" comment here. I think she actually wants me to assert myself more, but not in the underhanded, make-her-think-i'm-doing-it-for-her ways I have in the past.
And I want the same from her. You should hear us trying to come to a decision. Both of us trying to choose what we think the other wants, and both of us resenting the other for not saying what they want. *sigh*
Sounds familiar. What I am going to say may sound sexist, and I don't really understand it myself as I wasn't brought up to think this way but sometimes a woman just wants her man to lead. Make a decision even if you don't care. I think I got this from the "Superior Man" book but I was always non-committal when asked a question that I truly did not care about the outcome.
"Where should we go to eat?" "I don't care. Doesn't make a difference."
"Do you like the red dress or this blue dress?" "Either one is fine."
I did not care about the result but even these inconsequential exchanges showed a lack of leadership. You know, even if I truly don't care what dress she puts on, it doesn't hurt to make a decision. So now I say: "Hon, you look great in that red dress, wear that one tonight." or "Let's go down to Morton's and get a good steak." Did I really care about the outcome? No, not really, but she was asking me to lead so I led.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
Great point. I think this is the source of my wife's frustration in these situations. She has an incredible amount of resposibility as the working mother of three. She NEEDS me to take the lead when I'm around because she has to do it the rest of the time. In the past, I would either do as you used to, and say I didn't care, or try to guess what she wanted. Neither one fulfilled her need for me to lead.
Here's the mess. After operating in this pattern for a while, my wife has stepped in to take the lead. She resents the fact that she's having to do that, and my previous wishy-washy attempts to step back in were met with resistance. She would want me to lead AND she would want her way too. So when I move back into this position, there will be a transition period where I either give in, and let us stay in this disfunctional pattern, or detach myself from her responses, and continue to do what I think is right.
I expect the true test of this will be, once I've had a chance to live like a man for awhile, when I take the reins of our marriage back and steer us toward counseling. At that point, I should expect resistance, but I'll need to stick to my guns.
In the meantime, I need to make sure not to compromise my integrity by giving the impression that I'm fully on board with the track toward divorce. I need to be able to reverse directions without it invalidating everything that I'm currently doing and saying. So far I have managed to avoid agreeing with divorce or taking action toward that end. If it comes down to letting her get angry at me for my inaction and lack of agreement, or compromising what I want, I'll let her get angry. New Rigley can live with that.
It's puzzled me that my wife has complained about sex in two conflicting ways (these are not the only complaints, just the ones that seemingly conflict).
She's said "You never initiate sex"
AND
"You never want to have sex when I do"
I'm guilty in part in both of those scenarios. But I never realized the pattern here because I wasn't correcting the first "I am always the one to initiate sex." That's just not true. Not at all. I understand that she thinks it's true because in most of the times I initiated I never got past first base with her, and gave up. But if I make these two statements more accurate...
She resists when I try to initiate sex. She complains that I don't initiate sex.
I see exactly the same pattern as in the old restaurant selection. She wanted me to take the lead. I didn't take the lead in a manly way. She stepped in to take the lea, but resented it. When I tried to take the lead back, she resisted.
I agree that many women just want the man to lead, at least who aren't busy trying to be the man... A long time ago a friend of mine told me that everytime I was given a compliment, I would minimize it, make excuses for why something I was wearing was just something I threw on, etc. He told me that all I need to say was "Thank you" and leave it at that.
Since then, I have noticed many times that both my parents, especially my mother, do the exact same thing. Partly in their defense, it comes from the Japanese ideal of humility, but it also comes from poor self image and a lack of confidence.
When younger, I too wanted to please others and wanted to be sure everything was ok, that I was being the perfect gentleman, etc. What I was really looking for was confirmation that they wanted to be with me. Only over the past year or so have I learned that this is enmeshment and that differentiation means I can have my opinion, the woman can have hers, and it can simply end right there. If my wife asks me what I want to eat, I say what I want. If she doesn’t like the answer, that is her issue. She can make her own suggestion.
The idea that she will build up resentment if I repeatedly give her answers she doesn’t like is me falling back into enmeshment, because of a need to be accepted. She is choosing to not like my answers, so it is her responsibility to deal with that feeling, not my responsibility to see she doesn’t feel it in the first place. SWIM?
So the concept that Dieda puts forth to lead women is really one of simple differentiation. For me, the value of his book is that he makes a distinction between those things that are truly important for a man and those things that are truly important for a woman. I think the harmony that can come to a relationship is because of 1) the two sets of male/female values are clearly identified and segregated, 2) those values allow everything else fall into place through differentiation and the self confidence which comes from the knowledge of these two sets of values (i.e., knowing if she REALLY wants you to do something or not), and 3) the willingness to accept the preferences and wishes of another (which ties back to self confidence and letting go of feelings of abandonment).
I want to add to that last point… I have suggested things to my wife when asked, and she will come back and tell me that I don’t really want that choice because I picked something different in the past. Even though my different opinion my be due to evolving tastes on my part, I think she might be hearing that I am not really interested or engaged with her, and I am simply giving answers to placate her. That is her insecurity talking, but Dieda says that relationship is the primary purpose for a woman, so the level of my emotional engagement with her really is important.
So Balto, when you tell your wife to wear the red dress, she hears that you are emotionally engaged with her, that you are thinking about her, and that is HER primary purpose. So I do not think your comment is sexist, rather I think it is empathic. It is the confused, backassward, self-defeating nazifeminist movement that has caused us men to think that our natural urge to share with our woman is sexist!
Here's the mess. After operating in this pattern for a while, my wife has stepped in to take the lead. She resents the fact that she's having to do that, and my previous wishy-washy attempts to step back in were met with resistance. She would want me to lead AND she would want her way too. So when I move back into this position, there will be a transition period where I either give in, and let us stay in this disfunctional pattern, or detach myself from her responses, and continue to do what I think is right.
I think there is more to this dynamic than simply leading a woman. Leading is done for a purpose. It soothes and underlying fear. Some women have different fears and may need different actions from a man, other than leading. I really think you need to have a solid understanding of your FOO and how that is affecting you two. “The Narcissistic Family” does a good job of explaining your background and helps put the ideas of Dieda into proper perspective.
In the above example, your wife’s need to be lead is really a surface need. Deeper down the both of you are still following old ritual from your upbringing. In a narcissistic family, children learn that the only way to get their needs met is to fight for them. The parents set the example that their needs come first and the children come last because the parents are stronger and can force that upon the kids. Everyone is bickering with one another to be heard and validated.
Because of this continual ongoing struggle for power (and therefore attention and compassion from other family members), everyone comes to realize that the only way for there to be peace is to meet the needs of the others. If mom or dad does not get his/her needs met, then all hell breaks loose. Peace only comes by worrying about how someone else feels, not how YOU feel.
Back to your example, your wife gets upset with you because she does not think you are considering HER and therefore you are not trying to promote peace. She feels that by doing for you, she is promoting peace. She is thinking of you, just as she had to think of her parents when she was young.
Differentiation teaches us to completely reverse this way of thinking. We should NOT hold others accountable for how we feel, only ourselves. This is the only way to break the warring cycle that I have described.
The danger to relationships like yours and mine is that both people need to understand that there is a change in validation occurring. As you differentiate and stop taking responsibility for your wife’s feelings, she will become increasing angry with you. In some relationships where things have seriously deteriorated and that anger level is very high (like with many MLCers), I have suggested that people re-enmesh just to get back to the old comfort zones and get some type of soothing. Once the anger settles, that backward step on the path toward differentiation can be SLOWLY reversed.
I hope all of this is pulling things into perspective for you (and others on this board). IMO, it really is very important so that you know exactly what you are dealing with and can avoid serious mistakes and further damage.
Re the where do you want to eat tonight? what should I wear question?
When I ask a man one of those questions and he has a preference and states it, it makes me feel very cared for. Regarding apparel, it makes me feel noticed, like he gives a sh!t what I look like-- very nice. Re restaurant, I sometimes like NOT having to make a decision-- to be off duty. My late H put me in charge of EVERYTHING (he was a 9-- didn't have strong opinions), and it was EXHAUSTING to always be on duty.
If *I* have a strong preference as to dress or restaurant, I'm perfectly capable of going ahead. When I ask, it's because I want leadership and to feel engaged.
In some relationships where things have seriously deteriorated and that anger level is very high (like with many MLCers), I have suggested that people re-enmesh just to get back to the old comfort zones and get some type of soothing. Once the anger settles, that backward step on the path toward differentiation can be SLOWLY reversed.
How would you reconcile this with your previous recommendation that I tell my wife I'm moving back in, she needs to want me, etc.? Are they at odds?
Did you ever ask her how she prefers that you initiate?
Perhaps it is how you go about it, and not the fact that you are doing it, that causes her to resist it.
I do not like the way my H initiates. He is slowly and I mean s-l-o-w-l-y developing the skills to do it differently and I am perfectly happy to wait it out and moderately patient with the process. His style of initiating is usually to ask in this timid-sounding voice if I want to have sex. I HATE THIS. It absolutely turns me off to know that he can't let his desire be known until I have already agreed to sex. IOW, he wants *me* to say that I'm turned on and then he will reciprocate. This is not how women want the dance to go, kwim? Anyway, my point is that he rarely does this anymore. Well, he still asks if I'm in the mood first which I don't care for, but the other stuff has gone by the wayside thank goodness. So I'm wondering if perhaps the reason you never got off first base is that she doesn't care for your style instead of her not wanting to have sex. Or maybe she was just furious that it had taken you so long to initiate--I've experienced that too.
To me, your wife's reactions are not all that strange. However, I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it. Just know that the type of work you are doing..showing your true feelings, etc...is going to translate well in the bedroom. I suspect that your bedroom style was reminiscent of your outward style and that just wasn't doing it for her.
Likewise, her crabby aggressive style doesn't make you all googly eyed for her. As she softens it will, I'm guessing, become easier and easier for you two to be successful in the sack.
All in due time!
I was just saying that these two reactions are quite normal in HDW's. Try not to get hung up on it and just plow ahead being the totally hot guy you were the other night.
Perhaps it is how you go about it, and not the fact that you are doing it, that causes her to resist it.
Yep. I have always been tentative, and always read her constantly, looking for her approval. I was not confident, and probably blamed her when she didn't respond the way I wanted.
I think I could be MUCH better now. Forgive the sappiness, but I feel a lot more masculine now that I've detached my umbilical cord from her. I don't need her approval to take a breath anymore, and that makes me feel a lot more powerful.
Now, I still have concerns about how confident I'll be when I finally get the chance to make love to her again. But I think that if I take it slow, base-wise, and let the strength I'm discovering come through, things will flow naturally, like they should have when we were first married.
That's if she's able to let go of the fear. I think I can help her with that.
Try not to get hung up on it and just plow ahead being the totally hot guy you were the other night.
