EA, being "friends" with OW, and Boundaries Part 2

[kml]

Nikki -
Pardon my doctor hat for the moment - but do you mind my asking, what muscle disease did you have? And do they have an explanation for your osteoporosis? What are they doing now for your osteoporosis? Just asking because I know sometimes modern medicine puts bandaids without actualy getting to the root of the disease process.

I was going to tell you to go for it with regard to the skiing, but if you really have such bad osteoporosis, it's probably not the best choice of sports for you (take it from a woman who broke 3 ribs snowboarding a few years back!).

Ellie

[NikB]

Thanks for your thoughts, Stilltryin! I was excited about the ski thing but not necessarily passionate about it. Some of the reason for it is definitely looking for an active thing that H and I can do together - he has a lot more interest in it than I do but I am starting to think if he's so adament about NOT wanting to do it with me, maybe I should find something else. He likes bike riding too... I'm less excited about that but could try it out. My true love was always horseback riding and I'd love to get back to that, just for me. H doesn't enjoy it at all, but it would be a good solo GAL activity for me. I'm just having trouble finding a place that works w/people with muscle issues (lots of places for kids, but there aren't many for adults).

My real H made an appearance again last night and it was so nice. He not only showed up at the bank he was there EARLY and upset I wasn't there yet. I guess he forgot about my MC appointment but I called on the way back. He sounded mad when I first called but I reminded him where I was coming from and he immediately softened and said "Oh sorry, I forgot about your appointment" - so that was good. Of course he asked me what happened and how it went and I did tell him a few things - his mood went from iffy to really bad, he went out for about a 15 minute drive, and then got home and was like my old H again. Very strange but I'm not complaining! He made a fire, we watched a movie together, he was very affectionate... it was soooo nice.

I've got one other post to reply to and then I'll post my MC update. It was a REALLY, REALLY good session. I want to post the details so I remember and also because I think it may help others. I love the MC... she is so good.

[NikB]

Hi Ellie - thanks for asking! I only get into the details if someone asks because unless you're wearing the doc hat it can be pretty boring.

The muscle disease was an autoimmune one - juvenile dermatomyositis. It was active from ages 10 to 13 or 14 (I forget which now), but it was a severe case and the muscle damage is permanent. I finally got out of the wheelchair around age 16-17 and got around pretty good by age 18. Before the leg break, I was able to do about 2 miles on the treadmill, jog in place for maybe 30 seconds, and climb stairs with a rail - that's as close to normal as I got. Basically I have a lot less muscle cells than your average person so I can rebuild strength, but it's harder for me than most because I have less muscle to start with. I don't think I could ever get to "normal" strength, although I don't really know (I was 9 last time I knew what normal felt like, so I'm not sure I'd know when I got to "normal" anwyay if I did).

The osteoporosis is tied in directly to the muscle disease. The primary treatment for the dermatomyositis was steroids - and because my case was so severe, they ended up doing experimental super high "pulse" doses of Prednisone, along with a whole bunch of other drugs. I'd have died without it so I'm not criticizing the docs, but one side effect of the steroids is osteoporosis. The thing that really sucks is, they WERE doing bone density tests on me for years. My last one was around age 20 or so, and my bone density was back to normal. Since I'd been off the steroids for years and my bones were back to normal, I thought I was good to go and I never knew it was something I should continue to watch. Apparently, for some reason, my bones are still vulnerable to losing density very quickly. I was 31 when they were so bad my leg broke easily.

For the treatment - the doc's giving me Fosamax to rebuild the bone density. I also take a calcium supplement, and I've recently added the treadmill back to my daily routine. Here's hoping this combo helps.

I don't understand what caused the osteoporosis to return but the docs seem to think it's related to the steroids as a kid. Does that make sense or seem right to you?

Thanks for your comments on the skiing. I felt like it would be pretty safe doing it with the adaptive ski school (no way I'd just go to normal ski class!), but I dunno... still thinking on that one.

[mepicurus]

After seeing what you've gone through physically, I can understand your concern (and your husband's) about your safety.

But in the end, you are going to have to decide what you want to do, according to your own desires. If you're not really all that into skiing (or whatever else) and you do it to "show" your husband something, you are still being reactive. In this case, you'd be taking a hell of a chance to make a point. But if you do it because you want to and thereby arouse some kind of crisis in him (however small it might be), you'll have a happy confluence of your wishes and good work on your marriage.

It has to be confusing to figure out what you really want now. Take it easy on yourself and hopefully that knowledge will come.

[NikB]

As I mentioned earlier, I had a GREAT session with the MC last night and wanted to share it here. I feel so much better and more confident in what I need to do now. I hope some of this helps others too! Advance warning it's long. I'll try paragraphs/bullets to help!

This was my solo session - she could tell that we needed to talk separately about the EA/OW so she could get the full story. H goes in tonight to tell his side.

I told the MC some of the OW's history - all male friends, all divorced, she was involved with most of the Ds. Also that H was the one who told me all this but seems to have forgotten the whole conversation. She works in a male dominated profession, uses flirting to get what she needs, etc. She asked why I let this woman be around and I said I don't really "let" her but can't control what H does, and I also don't feel like I can say things about H's contact w/her since they're doing things I can't do (i.e. she's his "ski buddy"). I told her about trying to be friends with her, trying to find the good qualities in her that H likes, etc.

I told her H has insisted all along that no PA has happened but that at this point it barely mattered and she said "That's exactly what I was thinking." Also told her I don't think she'd even be in a relationship with my H if he wanted to - she just enjoys the game, and the MC said "Well that's very good news!"

She was impressed with all the thinking I've done on it (thanks guys, lots of it's due to you!). Her first comment was "He's cake eating!" Yeah, we knew that! So I asked for help dealing with it, and here's some of what we talked about. Not all of it is very "DB" but it feels right, so I'm giving it a try.

- Have I considered talking to the OW since we do have contact? I said I was concerned she'd use anything I told her to manipulate H and me. She asked why I had that concern and I told her about the stepped up contact since last week, the tennis racquet, their talk about how to act around me, etc. and she agreed maybe it wouldn't be good to talk to her. We both feel like anything friendly she's doing towards me is pretty fake and that she probably doesn't have any respect for me. She laughed hard when I told her about their conversation about how to act around me and confirmed that I should not let that suck me in to their games further.

- My physical issues are NOT an excuse for him to do things with her and not a reason for me to accept it. There are thousands of male people in this city and even dozens of people he's friends/acquaintances with who enjoy skiing, running, hiking, biking, whatever. In the past I was too needy and too dependent on him for everything - so, I commit to backing off when he does things with MALE friends and will encourage it.

- Forget about the physical issues I have. Act as if I'm a normal strength woman and approach him that way. I have the right to insist on respect and good treatment. She asked what I'd say to him if I DIDN'T have the physical issues and I said "You know, I have no idea." So I will think about that.

- Continue to make H question her and don't be afraid to point out her manipulations. I'm his friend, he respects me and will think about what I say and it will help him see her for who she is. She liked my reply on the tennis racquet but thought it should've been even stronger - I should've added a laugh and said "You're kidding right?" Make it clear that the manipulation is 100% obvious to me and I'm surprised he doesn't see it.

- Be true to myself. If she's not my friend, don't act like she is. Don't be around her in ANY situation where I'm not comfortable, and quit being nice to her. Be authentic.

- What happened last week when I got so angry was not wrong in her mind. I was finally being true to myself and my feelings and she told me several times it's NOT wrong to be angry or express anger in a marriage. Sometimes it's the only way your spouse sees how you truly feel, especially if you're usually the "bottle it up inside" type. I told her I thought my blowout was a mistake because H was so depressed and acted so odd ever since and things had been going well before that. She said very matter of factly that I didn't blow it, HE blew it when he didn't honor his promise to come help with the groceries. He knew it, he knew I was right to be angry, that's why he was acting so "off," and it wasn't my responsibility to make him feel good when he blew it and acted like a jerk.

- Good people can do bad things. My H is a good person but he's being sucked in by a "seductress" (her word). I laughed at that one and said "Yeah, she's a professional!" I said it hurt to see such a good man sucked in by someone like her and the MC said "He can't see it, he's starstruck right now."

- It's OK to be angry at the actions of someone that you love, and still love them.

- Let go of my big fear that he's going to feel like he has a fun, carefree time with her and come home to me being angry and he's going to see me or our M as the source of his unhappiness. She said he's smarter than that and I should feel OK about standing up for myself and for our marriage.

- DO make sure we continue to do fun things together as much as possible. He needs to see my disapproval about the EA but also needs to see the good, fun me.

- If I feel up to it, continue to go to social things where she will be but learn to bring out my inner b!tch (yes she used this word!). Don't be nice to her, and instead of hanging back, be right there next to him. If it means he has one of us on each arm, so be it. While I'm at it - smile, have fun, flirt, prop up his ego, and get this - shoot her dirty looks so that it's very clear to everyone around that I don't like her, am NOT ok with her being around. This "bad vibe" thing will be hard for me but I'm kind of looking forward to trying it. She said that even "their" friends won't like what's going on and since he's pretty sensitive to his friends' feelings, she thinks it will pressure him further to cut things off. Yep, you got that right, even though it sounds like "high school drama" to me. I like the idea.

- She thought it was GREAT that I told our mutual friend what was going on and that she supported me. She asked if I feel like people think I'm stupid or a doormat when "the 3 of us" go along to social things and I said absolutely yes, and she said if I'm true to myself and try the other things she suggested that will stop. It will be clear I KNOW what's going on, that I know it's wrong and I'm not stupid.

- Keep on planning stuff with our "old" mutual friends, and if she comes along don't be afraid to tell them I don't like OW and I'm not OK with her spending time with my H. It's not being disloyal to H - it's being loyal to our M.

- Look at everyone and everything in our lives as either a friend to our marriage or an enemy to it. She's an enemy to our marriage. I'm the only one willing to stand up and defend it right now but that's OK. FIGHT.

- H's moods are not my fault, even if something I say triggers it. It's not my responsibility to keep him in a good mood. If he's in a bad mood due to HIS actions then it's HIS problem, even if I was the one to point out the actions.

- He isn't going to get his wish of not hurting anyone, so both of us need to stop thinking that can happen.

- It's not possible to get mentally strong enough for a D, so stop thinking I can. She said it would be devastating for us both and I should stop focusing on gaining mental strength "just in case." Use that energy fighting to improve our marriage instead.

- Tell him what I really think and feel, and tell him I'm standing up for our marriage. Be very clear. She suggested for example telling him about the skiing - "I know I can't control what you do, but it's not acceptable to me for you to go skiing with her unless you are with a group of friends. It hurts me, and it hurts our marriage. I don't like it and I will not support it." Don't even say "Do what you want to do" because that sounds like permission - say "I know I can't control what you do" to put the responsibility on him. Oh my gosh.. can I really say that? Especially when he's not necessarily wanting to be married right now? She thinks yes.

- She asked how I thought this would all turn out. I burst into tears and said I didn't know, I wished I could turn to the last page of the book and find out. She said she normally wouldn't say this so soon but that she thinks that he may pull closer to her for awhile, she's going to burn him, and he's going to come back to his REAL friend in life, and pointed at me. Wow.

- Absolutely DO NOT support anything he says or actions he takes in regards to divorce. Another thing she said she normally wouldn't say so early on but she feels very strongly that we are two very good people who are good for each other.

She said she won't keep any secrets between us and will tell him all this today, although I asked her to be cautious because he is very scared of her thinking he's a jerk and taking sides with me. She said "I don't side with either one of you, I side with your marriage because I think it's worth it."

Wow wow wow...

So I told H some of what she said - that it was possible to be angry with someone you love deeply, that I should be true to myself and stop being nice to OW if that's not how I feel. Told him half joking "the fight's on now - if you're gonna make me compete I'll fight and fight hard!" It's the second time I've said it and meant it and he gets a pained look on his face every time, but it didn't bother me this time. I also told him that the MC agrees with me that H is a very good person, that she really likes him, and she sees that we care deeply for each other. He looked very worried and I said "Don't be scared about your appointment tomorrow - she really likes you and respects you." He said he knew but that he didn't deserve it... gave me this huge hug, then nearly ran out the door to go for a drive. I had no idea where he was going or for how long, but he was back 15 minutes later (no time to go all that far!) and it was like my old H was back - really romantic, made us a fire, complimented the dinner I made us, snuggled on the couch, etc.

I have no idea what to expect tonight. I have a feeling this is going to be a pretty pivotal MC session and may even determine if he'll keep going. I hope that she can make him feel as awesome and empowered as I felt when I walked out of there but I'm not sure if it's realistic... we shall see.

Whew, I warned you it'd be long. Hope some of those little nuggets are useful though!

[NikB]

Thanks Mepicurious! Yes, it's definitely confusing. The skiing is something I actually wanted to try a long time ago. Before breaking my leg and knowing about my weak bones I was actually hoping to get strong enough to go "regular" skiing, although I don't know how realistic that was. Now I know my only option would be the adaptive sit-ski thing, but I can't decide if it's still worth it.

[kml]

Nikki -
what a bum deal you got!

I don't know if it's common or not, but it does seem a little peculiar that your bone scans were fine earlier, and that you've developed this late osteoporosis after being off the steroids for years. That makes me wonder, of course, whether there is another cause for the osteoporosis that might be missed, because everyone jumps to the "easy" conclusion that it's due to the past steroid use.

People with one autoimmune disease are at somewhat increased risk for another. Celiac disease (gluten intolerance) has been found to be more prevalent in osteoporotic patients (presumably due to malabsorption of calcium and vitamin D).

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050308131921.htm

Celiac disease has also been seen together with JDM:
http://www.pedrheumonlinejournal.org/jan-feb05/Celiac%20Diseasetjal.htm

Even if you don't have any GI symptoms (many with celiac disease don't) I think you should be screened thoroughly (anti-gliadin IgA and IgG, as well as anti-endomysial or anti-ttg antibody blood tests).

Another much rarer concern would be autoimmune hypoparathyroidism - presumably they already checked your calcium and PTH levels, but do make sure it was done.

Ellie

[S.T. _I Made It!]

I'm glad your session went well.

I had also had MC sessions (2 of them, haven't done the third) with someone from Michelles office.

Now you guys are in a different sitch then mine, but there is still an OW. My C told me never to mention the OW, he was really strict with the books.

My gut feeling is telling me to be wary of the "fight" with OW. the stuff like, giving her dirty looks and being a "b". I really disagree with that. Firstly, because I'm a christian, and we should think and act as Jesus would act, and as you had said, feel pity for her. I think that being upfront and honest with her and convicting her of what she is doing in an unhateful manner would be good. If you become a "B" about it, it will just lessen your character and it also could cause your H to be pulled into her grasp even further. he will feel cause to defend her and so on.

That's just MHO.

The whole thing really depends on what he is thinking right now. Is he thinking that the M probably just won't work? Or that he feels stuck right now? That's why I believe that the DR book is so insightful, even though it's so hard to do and you feel like people are seeing you as a doormat, but it's a choice that we make to save our marriage and to wait out the storm. I believe our H's are not in a right frame of mind because of how long they alowed their unhapiness to continue without coming to us to resolve what is going on inside their heads. And when an OW comes along it makes things ever so confusing. Yes, they ARE smart enuf to "get it", but they are truely in another sense of being, so I believe that the answer is really NO.

Anyways, I'm glad it turned out well, and I hope that your H's is even better.

Make sure you journal the results of your actions so you know if what she has told you to do is working. I believe the DR book said it can be a week or two before noticing a change.

Do find that DR book. The library should have it. It has a lot of the same info, but more and I find it so much easier to read, and some better info too.

[inspiredjulie]

Nikki-
Thanks for posting so much about your C session. Some of the highlights resonated w/ me. Have a great day.

(oh, and my feel good tomorrow is going to make a big carafe of hot chocolate and drive around and give to people working outside w/ whipped cream, sprinkles and a candy cane. Can't wait.)

[tgh]

Julie-can you please check out my thread entitled "Think I really screwed up at counseling today"? I need input from a female who's been there and done that.

shoe-you too if possible.

Thanks to all of y'all. There are days you are the only things that keep me sane.