I guess I say that more because I see you trying to force her walls down ("What I am doing is forcing her to stop deflecting, confront her own issues")....this is trying to force her walls down. The walls cannot come down without trust, as we've already agreed to right? Well...if you are trying to force her walls down (or force her to take her walls down)...then you are in effect, trying to force her to trust you....indirectly.
Cobra...you CANNOT do this for another person She has to do this on her own. You can call BS on her, you can encourage her (and perhaps these are the things you mean) but you cannot force her to do anything....that is controlling her behavior.
The only way a person will face their own issues is because they want to. I know my H and your W aren't the same people....but my H could have spun our wheels as long as he chose to. The more I pushed him to confront issues deep within himself, the firmer he held steady refusing to talk. Even though I could see he had stuff running through his head and so did the MC....he wasn't going to let it out.
I also agree...each victim faces issues with a different set of skills. FWIW, my self-esteem wasn't always what it is now....it's something I've had to work on....very hard. Due to my own FOO issues I felt "not good enough" for a great portion of my life, I felt inadequate, ugly....and dumb. However, as I worked through my issues the self-esteem improved.
Quote: I am fully aware that she thinks I am a horse in need of training. That is all she has focused on. But when I look at the complaints she had a few years ago, I have addressed all of them. Like I said, she just moves the goal posts. It is a deflection.
So what you are saying is that you are letting her train you rather than training yourself. If you simply respond to her demands she is training you. You need to look at yourself and set the bar higher for your own good. Pretend like you are training for the Good Husband and Sexy Man Olympics and you are your own coach. Your wife's demands might clue you in to areas you need to work on if you take them as constructive criticism but if you leave it up to her to set the standard for you, you are also in a sense letting her set the overall standard for your marriage. If you wait for her to tell you what to do to be a better husband you are like a child waiting for permission to take on responsibility and you are limiting your growth. It's okay to be better than that. It's okay to exceed your wife's expectations. It will be very uncomfortable because your marriage will be in such disequilibrium but things will be better for you even if your marriage crumbles under the strain.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I know I cannot force her to bring down her walls. That is why I told her a week or two ago that I was not chasing anymore and she would have to take the initiative. At that time, and this past weekend, she kept “yeah butting” me. I told her each time that if I has this terrible, abusive, controlling husband then she had no reason to stay in the marriage and she needed to file. When she used the excuse of staying for the kids, I told her that was not sufficient either, that the kids should not be exposed to such a terrible person, so get out of the marriage.
But it did tell her if she was going to stay, she would have to face her trust issues and her resentment, or I would file. I would not stay in limbo. So she has not outs. This might be control on my part, or it might be a boundary. I don’t know and don’t care. Those are the terms. She can take it or leave it. It seems she has decided for now, to take it.
The ball is now in my court and I have to do all I can to give her acknowledgement, empathy and create the environment she says she needs for trust. That puts the ball back in her court. I still do not understand how to distinguish the difference between boundary and control when putting someone into the crucible. To me, it is a strong boundary, backed up by the threat of some kind of force (be it D or something else). To her, it will feel like control since I am putting her into a position of having to make a choice that she would otherwise not have to make.
Mojo,
No, I do not think I am letting her train me. Remember, I have complied with ALL her grievances from a few years back. You can say she has trained me, but you can also say I have grown to be more understanding and empathic of her needs and have decided to change myself to meet those needs. So which one is it? I think it is both and it is the art or compromise and negotiation.
I agree that I should not let her set the standards for the marriage, which is why I object to her constantly moving the goal posts. At first, I need to comply, because her grievances were founded, and I do not know if she will move those goalposts. But once I see her strategy and some history, then I need to stand my ground.
There is really nothing she can criticize me for now. I do help around the house, cook dinner, help with the laundry, help pick up kids, take them to the doctor or dentist (though I will not take them to the shrink to get more meds). So in essence, I have disarmed her. She has little to complain about. So what does she do? She digs up the past and starts complaining about all that she had to suffer years ago. It does not matter that all those things have be resolved, he just wants to hold onto that anger. Why? Deflection to avoid vulnerability.
Mojo, that long string of discussions Lil and I had with you earlier this year really helped me to better understand this dynamic, and I want to thank you for that. I know you were not purposefully trying to deflect, but I had a great opportunity to keep pressing the questions until I thought you were being honest with yourself. The answer seemed rather clear to me, and I think to Lil too. That answer cannot be never honest until it addresses the basic FOO fears. Everything else is deflection. This is what I have been doing with W.
The harder I have to press tells me how much pain she has had to avoid. I hope this helps others on this board, especially those who have been stuck for years. I cannot say others should push as I have, but if nothing else works, then maybe they should back up and take afresh look at the big picture to see what is going on. Adult Attachment theory has help me to better understand this big picture.
Cobra, this is all good stuff and it sounds like you've made incredible progress. What I don't understand is why you can't keep your children out of the middle. Saying that you have a narcissistic family and so of course the parents are selfish is mere rationalization.
So what's really preventing you from keeping your kids out of the fray?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
This has bothered me too. I believe clinging to the kids is partly due to our own anxieties. But I also believe W uses them as a substitute emotional bond for the marriage. Apparently avoiders will do this. They avoid the vulnerability with their spouse and instead become the enmeshed with their kids, where it is safe to be vulnerable.
I have always had the feeling that W uses the kids as a kind of shield. This latest event reminded me of the insurgents using human shields in the mideast. If she drags the kids into the mix then she has an extra layer of defense on her side. I see that as an avoidance tactic too.
I used to try and respect this, at least as much as I could, but she would not always honor appointments for discussions. Her objective has always been to run into her cave. So that got me frustrated and I stopped playing her game. If she wouldn’t honor appointments, then I saw no reason to forgo what I wanted to say. Not a good situation, I know. But if your partner will not negotiate in good faith, there is little you can do.
Until I came to terms with D and those abandonment feelings, I was the one pushing to talk. She hid anyway she could. Now I have tried to better accept D and mentally focus on the advantages of being free to do what I want and eventually find a happy relationship. This has helped to lessen my anxiety. But I will still not give her safe harbor using the kids as shields.
You really didn't answer Burgs question ("why you can't keep your children out of the middle.")
You've given us all sorts of reasons why your W does things....why are YOU allowing your children to be in this situation? There are two parents involved here, but you keep telling us in the past and just in this last post why she does stuff, not why you do it.
Very weell asled Gel. I am interested in hearing the answer to this.
Cobra....also I am curious. Okay tell me why you think your wife would have any trust in you? tell me about the good things you do to try to earn her trust. Because I read how you threatened divorce, threatened you could buy her out of the house using your parents help. You guys got the kid's involved and the kid's said they wanted to live in the house. You used an awful lot of threats. Why would she trust you? She may still be waiting to see the papers you stated you WERE filing.
I guess the important thing here is this also....don't ever ever threaten anything in a relationship unless you back it up 100%. You lose all face value if you don't. I learned this lesson myself the hard way. If you told her you were going to file then you need to. because the very next time you say it she will be like yeah right heard this one before.
Have you told your W that you didn't file Monday or has it just gone unaddressed so far?
Something I've been thinking about as I've read through your thread is your comment:
I think that security will help the kids more than anything else.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Telling them that you 'intended' to file just ripped their security blanket right off, no? Even though you think that the end result is a dramatic improvement in the household atmosphere, I have to ask, an improvement for whom? Because I guarantee your kids are confused and are not better off for hearing your declaration.
Last edited by heatherg; 11/09/0605:54 PM.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Neither one of us really wants to D. I really believe that. Pulling the kids into it is a powerplay. We both know it is wrong, but in the heat of an argument, people do a lot of wrong things. We have tried a lot to not argue in front of the kids. This time I think she felt she had no choice. I saw her actions as a sort of desperation move, but also one playing into her FOO, sort of holding up the pain of the kids and screaming how much they hurt, which is really saying how much she hurts.
You will not get a satisfactory answer from why the kids get dragged in. They just do. It is wrong, but it is wrapped up in all the other stuff we are trying to resolve.
Cally,
I don’t think my wife has to trust me and I told her so. If she cannot trust, then she should have the guts to file. But if she wants to keep the marriage together, then she will have to find a way to trust. That is her problem to work out. I am willing to help by addressing her complaints and trying to make myself vulnerable. It is her choice to go with that or not. If she decides to not trust, then I will eventually file.
At this time I am willing to give some time to work this out, since I think his is all a deflection on a grand scale. But my threat to divorce is not hollow. Had she not been open to talking Saturday night and listening to the books, had she not sent out some clear signals that she did not want to divorce, then I would have call the lawyers on Monday. The paperwork is already prepared. It just needs to be updated. There is nothing holding me back at this point and I think she knows that.
I did not say anything about filing and she did not ask. The quick turn in the relationship made it pretty obvious that I would not file, but if she wants to know, she can simply ask. I am trying not to chase.
