At this point I do not really care whether it was right or wrong. I could argue the cost/benefit either way. There has been plenty of damage to the kids. Divorce will cement that damage in place. My best hope for them is to repair the marriage and get this family back together. I think we had a major step forward toward that objective. I think that security will help the kids more than anything else. I am not working in an optimal situation, but trying to managing the least of several evils.
We are so deep in a hole there is no way to get out without causing some damage to the kids. I don’t like this either, but the bottom line is I can start to show some progress. This has DRAMATICALLY improved the atmosphere in the house.
Quote: It goes without saying that we are selfish parents. Any narcissistic family setting is selfish.
This is an interesting way to look at it. I feel like I've in a way made too much effort to protect my children. After my H's big "I hate my job. I'm going to quit." blow-up this weekend, I was sitting at my computer where I usually work just feeling dejected. My 18 year old son walked into the room and said "Hey, you better get it together. You're the only reliable source of income around here." thereby cheering me up with his semi-joking, highly aware statement of his own continued dependency and selfishness in a less than ideal environment. Of course, childhood is in a sense an invention of our society. We grant children the right to be selfish until the age of 18 or until they graduate from college or until they are old enough to work on the farm or in the pickle factory or until we die if we are highly fused parents. I think anyone who is telling themselves that they are staying together "for the sake of the children" should examine exactly what they mean by that. In your situation, Cobra, I don't think it is wrong to consider the benefit an amicable as opposed to a contentious divorce would have for your children. Though perhaps this isn't a realistic option at this point since parenting is something you fight about in your relationship.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'm going to go out and just shoot really straight with you on something. Take it or leave it.
After reading your many posts on here (and many have been good and insightful) you leave me with a distinct impression about you so I'm going to share it with you. You may not like what I have to say, but it is the impression you leave me with....and well since I work with horses, I'm going to use them to explain.
You remind me so much of the cowboys I've known in my past who want to BREAK a horse, they want their spirit bent to their will. They don't want the horse to be a horse on his terms and WANT to work with the cowboy, the cowboy wants the horse to do what he wants come hell or high water....regardless of how he gets the horse to do it. What does this approach get him? A horse with a broken spirit....a mere shell on hooves.
From your responses in your posts, from your attitude in this PUSH, PUSH, PUSH approach of yours....from your attitude about the damage that's already been done to your kids in this situation you remind me of that cowboy who wants what he wants and is willing to risk any damage to the horse to get it. What are you going to end up with? Superficial improvement and a wife that does what you want just to shut you up.
A horse that is treated in a manner where someone is trying to break it's spirit will wait for the moment that the paddock gate is left unlatched and BOLT! A horse that is allowed to be the horse that it is (personality and all) will happily stand right next to you in a paddock, with the gate wide open....not wanting to leave your side...however this horse will also do whatever you want, because it WANTS to. Because the trainer/cowboy has approached it in a manner that doesn't make it feel threatened.
Now having said this....I really doubt that this analogy will help you much, because of your yes butting people to death with stuff like this in the past....defelecting, or simply excusing away bad behaviors because you've somehow justified them for yourelf. BTW...justifying a bad behavior still doesn't make it right.
Analogies don't tend to help those who insist on doing things their way. What I see you doing though is attempting to break your W's spirit, and she's fighting you tooth and nail to not let that happen.....just as a horse will for awhile....eventually though that horse will either attempt to lash out and hurt the person threatening it, or it will give up and have a broken spirit.....no longer a real horse but merely another tool for the cowboy to use.
I personally do believe that the improvements you are seeing are superficial ones and that she's simply biding her time right now. What (I) believe is actually happening is your wife is doing some things to simply appease you and shut you up....until that paddock door is left unlatched and she can bolt.
Ok...now go ahead and do your "yes-butting", or "I don't really care what you think"...I'm expecting them. I know you truly believe you are making progress with this approach....however this approach you've adopted would only result in a broken animal in any other training scenario.
Go ahead...fire away.
GEL
PS: I thought I ought to add this since this is also something I had in mind while writing this post to you Cobra. Stormy is the horse I was thinking of in my scenario with you Cobra. Stormy is aptly named....he's VERY headstrong, VERY stubborn, VERY high-spirited, very much wants to dominate and have things HIS way....much like your wife I believe lots of the time. I KNOW if I adopted the approach Cobra that you are using on your W on him....I'd end up hurt (he would lash out in a heartbeat). Use a gentle approach (which doesn't mean wimpy...but merely communicating with him in a way HE understands) and I find he WANTS to make me happy and we keep his wonderful personality in tact...and I end up with an amazing animal who would run his heart out for me if I asked him to....because he wanted to make me happy.
I know I have posted this before to you. But can't help but do it again...Children have no place in the fighting that takes place in a marriage. What you put your children through is terrible and heart breaking. You should not hope that they will help build your marriage up. Get yourself a counselor for that!
Also all you did was act like the boy who cried wolf. Don't think for one minute that your wife can't see that. You try to act dominant and tell her your parents will help you get back at her and get the house you live in. Then the kid's state all they want is to live in their house. So then you are feeling smug and tell her you are going to file for divorce.(which I might add you have done before) Then hmmmmmmm what comes next you ask for sex!hahahahahahaha So predictable! You are trying to control her through being dominant. You can't stand to lose control for one second. You feel you have to have the upper hand all the time. I agree your wife was wrong in forgetting her obligations about picking up her daughter. But yiu handled things wrong. You started off good. But then went all dominant. Then acted like the boy who cried wolf. Believe me she can see through this.
I won’t give you any “yeah buts” because you are right. I am trying to break her, not exactly as you say. I have mentioned the idea of respect of rules, boundaries, etc., comes from a deeper understanding of power and legitimacy. Most of us here seem to have that. Orphaned, abandoned children who are traumatized in some way do not get this idea. W is now a teacher, working with mentally retarded and problem kids. She has a new student that sounds to me like he is just like her. He has no respect for W, or any other teacher, he does not believe he has to do what he is told, he thinks he can take whatever he wants from someone else, and if you try to stop him, he will hit. He has hit several of the teachers already.
This analogy is a lot like what I am facing with my W. For her and this student, the problems come from trauma in their FOO. W had a caring, loving mother so she does not understand exactly how she could have attachment issues, but the amount of loss in her past is proof to me of the effect trauma can have on kids. Like her student, I firmly believe all W wants is to be protected, nurtured and loved. But those emotions are so strange and uncomfortable for her that she cannot deal with them. Each time we get along well and start to get closer, something conveniently comes up to create a rift. It is no accident. It is a contrived defense.
Just as she is having to do with her student, I am showing her that she must respect the most basic, fundamental rules of relationships. Years ago she never would have thought I had the guts to call the cops on her, and frankly, I don’t think I did either. So I enabled her. But as W must be strong and dole out severe punishment if necessary to this student (at least as strong as they will allow in school, which does include physical restraint), I must do the same. Yes, that means that I, like her, must push, push, push. Once those rules can be respected, relationship building can begin. But not before.
I have been doing just that. W will also have to show this student that she is not abandoning him and that she truly cares about him, and as much as she may have to discipline him, she will always be there to help him. I am trying to do the same. It is damn hard. I question whether she will ever get it, whether I am getting it, whether I am making things worse, how this affects the kids, and on and on. Slowly I am seeing W acclimating to closer emotional bonds with me, although those times are brief.
Something I said or did this past week got through to her. I think it was my re-engaging with her Saturday night to read Dieda and Schlessinger to her, showing her that I was not abandoning her, at least not yet. We discussed my faults and where I needed to step up to the plate, as Dieda discussed. This helped me to reveal more of myself, which made her feel safe. But I think the biggest thing may have been my direct statement to her that she will have to open up and face her issues and take responsibility for what she does to create the situations that make me angry and lead to a fight. She did not argue that she had to face her anxiety or face divorce. I don’t know what is different in what I said from what I had said before.
So your horse analogy is correct in part. But I am not trying to break her spirit so much as break down her walls. I admire her spirit. I detest her walls. I also think the approaches we had tried in the past were destined to failure in the first place. If our counselor had better recognized the trauma issues, perhaps we could have taken a different path in therapy. Live and learn. However all we have been through and learned is still valuable so I cannot say it is a waste. The order of learning could have been changed.
Lastly, if I am correct in my thinking, the result will not be a W broken in spirit but a W who is actually stronger because she has broken down her walls and come to realize that the world did not end and there are people out there who can care for her.
Ah but Cobra....what you did that got through to her is EXACTLY what I was referring to as "speaking a language the horse understood"....in a gentle non wimpy way. Reading the book, discussing issues (not screaming and yelling) and showing you weren't abandoning her is very likely to be the language she understood that sunk in.
Yelling & screaming in front of the kids, pointing out her flaws/insecurities continually, push...push....pushing....is what I was referring to as the approach that was going to break her spirit. And honestly....there have been several times that you've posted here (sorry I can't think of a good example right off the bat) where you yourself have shown that she resisted it....just as a horse would when being "broken".
I know you say you are tearing down her walls, and I get that....but the battering ram approach ALSO tears down her spirit....it is virtually impossible with this approach to do one thing without also doing the other. Really all I'm saying is try MORE of the approach that she responded to that wasn't so freakin abrasive. You want her to trust you right? In order for her walls to come down she must trust you.....hammering away at someone to remove their walls doesn't build trust. Picking up a book that's important to you and reviewing it to show you aren't abandoning her.....is gentle, reassuring, and builds trust which will help those walls to crumble on their own.
BUT discussing D and then adopting that more gentle approach is counter-productive, it sends mixed signals. Pick a side and commit.
I'll take GEL's analogy one step further. The fact of the matter is that your W views you as a horse that needs training as much as you view her that way. Perhaps exactly as much. So you are the trainer and you are also the horse and the horse you need to train is yourself because if you don't train your own horse you can be d*mn sure that your W will do it for you. Think about it. What if some Freaky Friday Wife Swap event took place and you woke up tomorrow as Mr.Gel. Who would be the trainer and who would be the horse? It has nothing to do with your particular W and therefore nothing to do with her particular FOO issues. I'm not saying that you would necessarily be equally happy or unhappy in any pasture but your best bet for being more happy in any pasture is to concentrate on the problems you bring and the blinders you may have on. I'm not really slamming you here because I do think that you are aware of this. I'm just reminding you where to concentrate your effort because the way you think about the problem does make a difference in how effectively you can solve it. The trick to training your own horse is to realize that self-validation isn't always positive validation. It's okay to tell yourself "These are the top ten ways that I am a cr*ppy spouse" as long as you are willing to accept your limitations and/or work towards change. Train yourself to be a better husband rather than trying to train your wife to be a better wife. Don't do it because it's the "right" thing to do. Do it because it will be a d*mn sight easier and will serve you better in the long run even if some Freaky Friday Wife Swap from h*ll occurred and you ended up married to someone like me .
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I hear you and understand about speaking the language that she understands, in a nice empathic way. That is my task and sometimes I can do it, sometimes I can’t. You are correct in that she needs to build trust. That is exactly her argument for the past year or so. But you have to remember who we are dealing with. She is an avoider, and in a major way. Building trust means opening up and becoming vulnerable. I have done so much of what she has asked, yet each time she moves the goal post. Each time, there is no additional buildup of trust.
I believe that trauma victims like her cannot build up trust on their own. The walls are too strong. If I do everything she asks, she will not get closer, she will just be happy to stay in limbo – that comfortable spot where I leave her alone, do what she wants me to do to meet her needs, and still avoid the emotional vulnerability.
I think that for most of us, what I am doing would be confusing, sending mixed signals. To a trauma victim, I do not think it is mixed. I think it is consistent. The hard discipline is a sign of commitment and caring because the focus is on that person, just as the caring and empathy is on that person. But using just compassion and caring will not work. The spotlight is too intense on her and she gets uncomfortable and runs. Trauma victims have no self esteem. They cannot handle too much vulnerability. They do not feel they are worth it.
Mojo,
I am fully aware that she thinks I am a horse in need of training. That is all she has focused on. But when I look at the complaints she had a few years ago, I have addressed all of them. Like I said, she just moves the goal posts. It is a deflection.
I told W that building trust is a two part process. I must create the conditions to make her comfortable. I think I have done much of that. The other part is that she must be able to then feel trust. This is what scares her to death and why we stay stuck. In her eyes, the fact that she still feels fears is because the conditions are not soothing enough for her to begin trusting. She assumes that because she feels fear, it is valid and that it must come from me.
What I told her is that the conditions never will be good enough to overcome her fear. She has a responsibility to ratchet up her trust as I improve the conditions. She must move out of her comfort zone and push herself to reach out, as scary as it might be. Otherwise there is no way for me to feel like we are going anywhere. No matter what I do, she can always say it is insufficient, therefore she has a right to hold onto her resentment, stay angry and control the relationship. I think it is this message that somehow got through.
I disagree with this statement (I believe that trauma victims like her cannot build up trust on their own.")
My H endured his own traumas long before I came along which resulted in several failed marriages prior to me because of his behavior and the women he chose as a result. I also endured traumas in my own life that would cause many people to withdraw completely....many women have chosen alternative lifestyles because of what I endured. My H....has (and is now) building up trust...of course he is doing it with MY help now. However.....I built up trust on my own. I have/had MAJOR FOO issues with my own father that I have dealt with on my own. I have had MAJOR issues with men in the past....that I have dealt with on my own. I'm not going to go into the different traumas I've endured....but some were pretty horrific. So no, I don't buy this statement ("I believe that trauma victims like her cannot build up trust on their own.") They can build up trust....BUT you cannot force someone to do it, I really don't believe you can. You may disagree with me...and that's ok. All I can say is that if someone had tried to force me to trust them...I'd have felt that they were trying to control me, and I would have resisted. It would have in fact caused me to mistrust them more.
If I had tried to force my H to trust me....he too would have resisted (saw him do it). His behavior in fact got worse when I tried to force his walls down. When I stopped forcing him....and backed off walls started crumbling. Sure, this was after our big blow-up where I discovered his activities....but even those activities were based in part on his resistance of me trying to get him to do something he wasn't ready to do.
When I stated my boundaries as to what I wouldn't accept in our M and then backed off....accepted him for who he is....the walls started crumbling down. Now that I think of it both for my H and for myself.....being accepted for who we are was key to getting those walls to crumble.
Why are you saying that I am forcing W to trust me? I am not doing that. I know that is not possible. What I am doing is forcing her to stop deflecting, confront her own issues and take responsibility for her part in this mess. This very act on my part is showing her (in a twisted way) that I am here and concerned for her. That engagement with her is part of her feeling trust, but she has to let herself feel it.
I have tried to go the accepting route. That did help and we were able to move forward. Then we hit a roadblock. I believe the level of her resistance is in direct proportion to the abandonment she felt as a kid. Now in reality it may pale to what you had to face, but in her mind, it must be huge. Maybe you had better coping skills, better modeling somewhere along the way.
I also think you have MUCH higher self esteem than my W. This is not a small issue. If you do not love yourself and forgive yourself for the disasters that have befallen you (and others) then it is hard to accept yourself. I really think W holds some level of responsibility for her mother’s death. I think that is why she is almost paranoid about avoiding any kind of blame. She wants responsibility because she sees that as a sign of respect and self confidence (which she desperately wants), but she does not want the downside of being blamed if something falls through. That just triggers her guilt. Her teaching job is helping her to cope with this and learn that her old way of thinking is not necessarily correct. She is having to accept responsibility and having to think of herself in higher terms.
So I understand what you are saying, but each victim is different and comes into his/her situation with different skill sets and personalities. I do not think W would ever confront her vulnerability and trust issues if she didn’t have to.
I also want to mention one other thing. Late in the afternoons I usually call home to check on the kids and see what is going on. I also like to check with W for the same reason, but W has problems getting cell phone reception in her class. Even though I can call the school and then be transferred to her class room on the land line, she is often out of the room in other facilities. One complaint I have had is that she makes no effort to contact me, though she will religiously check in with the kids each day too. I want to keep communication open to know what is going on for the evening, like kids activities, dinner, and the like. I told her that her not calling me was a sign she was not doing her part and that it had nothing to do with trust, just shared parenting for sake of the kid. I saw it as a sign of her detachment.
Yesterday I tried her cell phone just as she was leaving the school. She said, “Oh, I’m just getting in the car and was going to call you and shock you!” Her calling me would be a shock and something she hasn’t done in years. I don’t know if what she said was true, but I took it at face value and as a sign that she is trying to do her part. Maybe she is just biding her time until she can leave. She does have that game plan and I do not think it has been removed from the table yet. But I will think (maybe naively) that this latest action is not playing with those cards.
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