I have re-read this easily 20 times and its finally sinking into my neanderthal brain. Now I have a question. How the heck can you use--
"I'm never dependent on hearing "Mmm..that was yummy" in order to validate my cooking skills. The fact that I know that most people would find it yummy and/or the fact that I know that I did make an effort to cook something my H would find yummy is enough for me to self-confirm my value as a cook in the relationship."
if you self-confirm value as sexual proweress in this society? [That comes from a father put down in the FOO and a yes, I can get praise from a guy thing I've got.]
Other skills I can do and I can do them for H or another and recieve praise. That skill is reserved for H by various laws and mores.
Therefore--
" If every request for sex is viewed by the LD partner as a desperate plea for validation no matter what the circumstances or actual mindset of the HD partner might be then what's a HD to do?"
especially when that's what the HD was after with the connection of intimacy and affection assumed.
During a recent conversation H said with a bit more furvor, "Why don't you just get on with it and throw me out?" Then after a couple days when I got my legs back under me again and broached with something to the effect of quoting him and then saying "Even then you throw the descission back in my lap".
"So how do you get around the paradox that you will increase desire by increasing value but if you increase value in order to increase desire you will thereby exhibit an increased need for validation and therefore make the situation even worse?" Again from MJ's orininal.
BTW altho MJ's theory seems to be a bit convoluted on the surface I think there's a lot of truth in it. Thanks.
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Quote: In conclusion, you are probably unconsciously turning your H off because you are attaching too much chocolate to your pretzel for his taste. It might be the case that he really does have deep issues with intimacy overall in which case he will run from chocolate wherever he finds it. However, if it is true in your situation, as it is true in mine, that when you sit down and start knitting, your H says "What are you knitting?" and you say "A scarf to go with my jacket." he then says mock plaintively " Aren't you going to knit anything for me?" the problem isn't an overall lack of desire for intimacy but a specific lack of ability or lack of preference for intimacy mixed with sex.
So my advice to you is serve pretzels in the bedroom and chocolate in the family room and try not to mix them up and be patient and self-aware if it takes your H a while to clue into the fact that you've made a change in the menu. Also, you may need to cut down on the amount of both chocolate and pretzels you are serving for a while in order to restore some relationship equilibrium but keep serving the fruits and vegetables and protein.
Here is the thing. It is totally up to you to decide whether good behavior on your part in your marriage is adding value or seeking validation. Your motivation is as much up to you as your behavior but changing one will change the other. It is also totally up to you to decide whether bad behavior on your partner's part is a reduction in value or a reduction in validation. Your reaction is up to you.
For instance, my H was all cranky this morning because I was up first and didn't make a pot of coffee. It was totally up to me to decide whether to take his cranky behavior as a lack of validation (think along the lines "If he loved me he wouldn't be such a PITA") or a reduction in value (think "The fact that my H tends towards crabbiness is one of the things that I do not value about him."). Also, it is up to me to decide whether I see his crabbiness as a request for validation (think along the lines "It is annoying that he feels unloved and cranky simply because I was slightly thoughtless in my domestic attention.")or a request for value (think along the lines "My absent-mindedness does make me a less valuable domestic partner. I should work on that."). It's pretty obvious which thought patterns would best serve my future happiness and the success of my marriage. I am currently happy with myself because I made the right choices this morning and what could have spiraled into a bad interaction ended up being a good interaction because instead of seeking more validation or offering more validation I offered more value (calmly with just a hint of exasperation offered to cook some toast) which caused my H to apologize for his crabbiness give me a hug and actually humorously cop to the fact that his crabbiness was a request for validation by saying "You didn't make me any coffee." in the voice of a whiny baby.
Contrast this with my "bad" behavior that brought me back to this BB. The fact that my H admitted that he had reduced value in the relationship by not showing up for our Wednesday sex date for a couple weeks caused me to burst into tears. My H was baffled by my behavior (as well he should have been) because I was responding to a recognition of reduced value which is in a sense an offer of increased value with an increased rather than decreased need for validation. This was because I valued my delusion that he wanted to have sex with me but was stymied by circumstances beyond his control more than the reality that he didn't want to have sex with me but valued the marriage enough to wish that he had made more of an effort. My delusion or level of denial is what caused me to have an imappropriate and unproductive response to my H's comments.
Therefore, I think both these examples show that being self-aware is critical to being able to add value and reduce validation in your relationship. Anytime you are having a thought that is based more on serving your ego needs than what reality has to show whether this is a bad, offensive thought about your partner or a good, defensive thought about yourself, nip it in the bud.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
LOL. I'm glad you dragged the pretzel/chocolate analogy over here because I had something to add but didn't want to hijack. Once you realize that your spouse separates their need for chocolate from their need for pretzels and you are able to do this too and get your chocolate fix elsewhere, your desire for sex will naturally fall to the extent that you were looking for chocolate or only pretzels that are chocolate-covered. Sex will become "just sex" and your drive will only remain intact to the extent that you like "just pretzels" without the chocolate. However, it is unlikely that your spouse has absolutely no intimacy needs that they need to have filled by sex so eventually they'll start craving a little chocolate with their pretzels too. Then you can start adding back the chocolate until you find a happy sexual balance. Also, if you are liberal with the chocolate in other areas some of it is bound to slop on to your sex life too.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Ah, Jenny, its a real treat to return after a long hiatus and read your grand unified theory, lol
I missed your analogies - pretzels, chocolate, Anjelina Jolie, yes, I'm nodding along. Actually, I think your theory makes wonderful sense. I've found it to be very true in practice.
Glad to hear you and Mr. Wilson are doing well. Things are going well in Julieland too, nothing much to report. Good sex, some give and take in the marriage, the occasional blowup...like I said, nothing much to report.
Quote: I missed your analogies - pretzels, chocolate, Anjelina Jolie, yes, I'm nodding along. Actually, I think your theory makes wonderful sense. I've found it to be very true in practice.
Thank you for the validation of both my analogies and my theory-LOL (I am such a nerd!).
I'm glad to here that things are still going well in your sich. I returned to the BB because I had a bad moment last week but things seem to be back on an upward march at this point thus I was trying to share the "secret of my success". I think I'll know that I've finally really solved the problem or become completely differentiated when posting on this BB is neither helpful nor harmful to my situation.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Hey gals, Wanna know when my situation took a turn for the better in a way that felt permanent and not Honey's Good Luck for the Week?
When I stopped indentifying as the HD partner. I just stopped and he stepped up. It took nearly a year for our roles to solidify and shift but they seem to have done just that. The interesting thing is that our frequency is basically the same.
Anyway, I now think that the HDW can never have true success until she is able to either convince her mate to live up to his HD potential, or become LD herself.
It's been a weird ride to come full circle. I went from being HD-but-silent-and-sad to HD-but-silent-and-happy with a relatively short period in there where I was HD-and-loud. All of these periods were a necessary part of the process but lasting success could not happen until my desire dropped off enough and he had enough time to regroup. Then my desire picked up again and now things feel very nice and solid.
Quote: I think I'll know that I've finally really solved the problem or become completely differentiated when posting on this BB is neither helpful nor harmful to my situation.
I've come back here occassionally to vent or ask a question when I was having a rough day. Nothing wrong with that! I feel the draw less and less as time goes by. Occassionally, I lurk and rarely, I feel the urge to post. Your theory brought me out of lurkdom. Geek
As for being more differentiated - its a gradual curve. Being fully differentiated must be akin to achieving nirvana or something like that...I doubt I'll get there in this lifetime!
Honey, its interesting that you feel the HDW has to become LD in order to achieve success. I wouldn't put it that way, although it is effectively whats happened in my situation. Mojo's pretzel analogy explains it perfectly. Relative to H, I am LD for pretzels, but HD for chocolate covered pretzels. H and I are are probably equally desirous of chocolate outside the bedroom, although he prefers milk chocolate and I like dark chocolate.
This self-awareness has effectively led to me feeling and acting significantly LD compared to before. Because I know he wants the pretzels, I don't hold out for the chocolate covered ones. Everyone wins. I let him lead me, he leads with enough strength and desire to keep our sex life passionate and fun. Occassionally, I put out signals and he responds. On a few occasions, I brushed up against him at night innocently, he woke me up and fcked my brains out. Who knew we had this in us?
As for frequency, I don't even keep track anymore. We probably average 1-2x a week as always, but there are weeks when nothing happens and there are other weeks when we feed each other's desire and end up doing it 4 times or more. Sometimes, I see the feast-or-famine dynamic that you and Karen have talked about. It doesn't bother me in the least because if I do want to start something during a famine period, he reponds to me.
We are still working through other marital issues, but nothing seems insurmountable, kwim?
It was great chatting with you, girlfriends. I better stop before I start having too much fun here!
Quote: When I stopped indentifying as the HD partner. I just stopped and he stepped up. It took nearly a year for our roles to solidify and shift but they seem to have done just that. The interesting thing is that our frequency is basically the same.
I am so glad you said this and Julie agreed with my pretzels and chocolate analogy because I think we are all in complete agreement with the only differences easily explained due to the differences in our personalities and our H's personalities or life experiences. I could say it even better by combining the analogy with what you said above. My situation took a turn for the better when I stopped identifying as the HD partner because I realized/accepted the fact that I like my pretzels better with chocolate (not to say that I don't like plain pretzels on occasion too . The fact that I couldn't acknowledge that I was looking for some chocolate covered pretzels ramped up both my drive for chocolate and my drive for pretzels. My problem wasn't that I like chocolate covered pretzels, most women do. My problem was that on some level I thought it was "wrong" to like chocolate-covered pretzels.
I think when you stop strongly identifying as either HD or LD then you can have more empathy for someone who is identifying otherwise. Sort of like an experienced mother who had babies of both the clingy and refuse to sit on your lap varieties could identify/empathize with someone with either kind of baby variety.
Corri has noted that the women on the BB of either ilk have been more likely to find success than the men. Perhaps this is due to the fact that women of either ilk are more able to ignore their biological desire one way or the other. LD women can "fake it 'til they make it" more readily then LD men and HDW can ignore their relatively low level feelings of physical arousal more easily. For me it's pretty much the equivalent of passing on the pretzels even if I'm a bit hungry because I would rather save my appetite for chocolate-covered pretzels. It's like your mother used to say "A man won't bring the chocolates if he can get the pretzels for free.". You just need to maintain confidence in the quality of your pretzels even if your H goes on a -free diet for Lent or seems to prefer the kind of pretzels they sell in plain wrappers behind the counter of the liquor store or is very, very picky about his pretzels etc. etc..(I'm sure I could come up with a pretzel analogy for the H of every HDW on this BB.). If you raise validation (raise the supply and lower the price of your pretzels) in reaction to lowered demand, you are just like a stockholder who buys high and sells low due to fear of losing big. You are having a natural human emotional reaction that is very stupid and counter-productive.
So a woman who is naturally LD is like a baker who just doesn't have any flour or salt at the moment and is being beseiged by a horde of hungry pretzel-eaters. A HDW who becomes more successful is like the baker in my small town who only sells pretzels on Saturday morning. The townfolk all line up to get those pretzels and they seem much more delicious due to the fact that you can only get them on Saturdays.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
___________________________________________________________ A HDW who becomes more successful is like the baker in my small town who only sells pretzels on Saturday morning. The townfolk all line up to get those pretzels and they seem much more delicious due to the fact that you can only get them on Saturdays. __________________________________________________________
Are you saying I'm too free with my pretzels? Tee hee...
I guess my H is the guy who prefers to wait for the gourmet pretzels on Saturday but if he gets the urge midweek he goes to the cheap, bagged variety (porn/busyness/other substitutes) and then skips that Saturday.
