Listen, bud, if I had an answer for that question, I'd be writing books, doing T.V. shows and making millions. And I sure as heck wouldn't keep it from my SSM buddies. It'd be on the house.
But I tell you what... if I ever come up with the concrete answer, I'll let you know.
Quote: I truly believe that once ONE person in the R truly understands the pure destructiveness of power plays, or competing, within an R and STOPS doing it... the R can and WILL change
Change? Yes. H has done some things I find touching and those things are softening my gruffness. This gives me some energy to try again. The business that your "love" is a vessel/account and you fill and withdrawl from it regularly and the absolute emptiness of the sitch can possibly be fixed one sided.
Look at your buckets. 'There's a whole in your bucket 'Lil Liza, Lil Liza Jane.' Make sure you stay aware of incoming so that you can recieve the jestures. Some just don't get em.
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Still trying to find this book. Not at Barnes and Noble or the local library. Not sure I agree with everything people have said about it. They talk about GALing for the one down. Been there, done that, it does not work. If I went for 6 months without ever initiating ANY kind of sex or touch, I will STILL be right where I am. Not sure that this book takes into account that much of the passion problem is caused by physical problems and not emotional issues.
Corri – thanks for reminding me it was you that recommended the book. I wanted to thank whoever it was – like you say it is switching on a lot of light bulbs for me.
I am wondering if the key to all this is guilt?
My H controls me through guilt, through making me feel guilty for his sense of inferiority. His sense of the unevenness of the relationship triggers bad feelings for him – the bad feelings occur when I am around therefore I must be causing them.
I cannot fix it. It is not possible to fix the OPs sense of one-downness - that is for them to fix. When I say I am better-looking, more intelligent or whatever is this even true? Or is it something he transmits to me through feeling less intelligent, less good-looking. He has said these things: he has called himself unworthy of me, he has said he hates to argue with me because I am more intelligent than him – I’m not sure that’s true. Delius says that the one-down makes himself unattractive in the eyes of the one-up by their neediness and approval seeking – by giving themselves a bad press.
H is no longer 21, no longer a student with no money. He is a high-earning professional man. My power as an attractive woman is waning as I age. There is a power-shift – but as Corri says we should not be engaging in power games. I was not fully aware that we were, but obviously he was.
What I can do I think is stop feeling guilty. To release myself from that guilt and start to operate from a more natural place rather than walking on egg-shells and twisting myself around to not hurt him. Then I can become the free-flowing spontaneous person that I was when we first got together. That is the thing which I get angry about, the sense that he has me trapped, that I can't be me. Because by being me I make him feel less.
Anything I do for him gets thrown back at me because it's just not good enough. How could it be after all the years of feeling bad?
And he has to GAL. He has to get away from his sense that "everything I do I do for you", because that is what is making him miserable and me guilty. I am sure that the less guilty I feel the less I will walk on egg-shells and the more spontaneous we will become. I’ve already noticed it happening to a certain extent. Lately for whatever reason I have been taking H’s sarcastic negative remarks in a humourous way, assuming he is just using gallows humour rather than moaning. It seems to be working he will laugh ironically back
Now how do Hairdog, Heather and others fix it from their side. While I don’t have the book on me right now (at work) I do know there are several strategies given. The main ones being GAL, and stand up for yourself – don’t fear going against the one-up. The one-downs have to get into the habit of not automatically subordinating their wishes to the wishes of the one-up. This will build a better sense of balance, gain the respect of the one-up and let the one-down feel less like the one-up is being selfish. It is not selfishness it is freedom – freedom from worry that the relationship will end if they do something they want to do.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
You can find the Passion Trap on Amazon. And I don't think that lack of sex is a physical problem vs. an emotional problem. Honestly, in 9 out of 10 cases, I'd say it is reversed, in my non-medical professional opinion.
Hap:
Guilt. Ah. Lovely word.
Quote: And he has to GAL. He has to get away from his sense that "everything I do I do for you", because that is what is making him miserable and me guilty.
Yes. My xH was exactly like this. EXACTLY. And when he just asked for a LITTLE BIT in return... I couldn't give it... bad, bad, bad, bad, Corri. Poor, poor, poor xH.
No, you cannot fix your H. Yes, lose the guilt. Any way you can. The one thing about this power game, though, is it is covert, and they come at you with it cloaked in good intentions. (I'm only thinking of YOUR happiness, and look at what I get in return...) That takes a pretty thick layer of skin to work through... and there are days when you think your head is absolutely going to SPIN OFF YOUR NECK because you get so tired of doom, gloom and woe is me. Oh, jesus... I'm having flashbacks here... hang on....
Oh, and yes, please, please, please start being yourself again. Your children need to see her. You GO girl!!!
I think what Burgbud, Cemar and myself are saying is that the idea of only fixing yourself to improve the marriage will only work in some cases. As I see it, marriages have some combination of pursuers and avoiders – three possible combinations: 1) pursuer/pursuers, 2) avoider/avoider (which I do not think ever happens since this combination is not sustainable), and 3) pursuer/avoider.
For cases 1) & 3), when the person making the changes has a pursuer as a spouse, then s/he CAN bring about changes in that spouse. That pursuing spouse is now pursuing a different animal and will have to change tactics to mount a successful pursuit (however success is defined). I believe this can hold whether the spouse making the changes is a pursuer him/herself or an avoider.
If the person making the change is a pursuer and has a spouse who is an avoider, changes by the pursuer may not make any difference at all. I believe that response in the avoider spouse depends on the degree of avoidance in that spouse, i.e., is s/he just avoiding conflict and fighting, or is s/he avoiding emotional intimacy?
For instance, Happy Giant’s wife seems to be off the scale in her avoidance because of assumed sexual abuse issues. No matter how nice or healthy HG becomes, I do not see her coming out of her shell without major therapy work. In his case, he has three choices: a) learn to live with this and make the best of a bad situation, b) leave the marriage or c) push very hard to force a change, through some type of intervention and treatment.
Now if the avoider spouse is not so extreme and is only trying to protect him/her self against pressure from the pursuer, changes in the pursuer will lessen that pressure and allow that avoiding spouse to safely emerge from his/her shell. In this case, I agree with you that changes in the pursuer can improve the marriage.
Couple all of this with anger and resentment in the pursued spouse (which can be due to the perceived abuse that pursued spouse is experiencing OR from FOO issues), and I do not think the cessation of pressure/abuse by the pursuer will result in such clear cut outcomes.
Now, this DOES NOT absolve the pursuing spouse from making any changes or improvements. The ideas you and Blackfoot have been discussing are very relevant. It is as Abraham Lincoln said, “I will prepare myself and wait for my chance to come.” If you have not transformed yourself into the attractive mate your spouse will desire, then simply stopping the pressure will not create the attraction in your spouse. Maybe they emerge from their shell, but become attracted to something or someone else other than you. And isn’t this one of the root fears of pursuers, that s/he will loose the spouse to someone else? So in this way, working on yourself is a REQUIREMENT.
I agree that you cannot fix your spouse, but you can do things to help them improve or not. For some people, I believe gaining security and comfort is prerequisite to self improvement. The philosophy I see on this board is that you fix yourself first in the hopes that your spouse will then give you the comfort you want. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. In fact I think the majority of the time it does not work. Otherwise, where are the success stories to prove me wrong? Hope is not an operative word for someone who is already insecure! Hope is based on faith, and when someone has a traumatic past, there is no hope. Putting your faith in the hands of another is the hardest and scariest thing you can do. Corri, you know this all too well. So why propose someone do just that in order to repair the marriage? The reason there are so few success stories on this board is becoming very clear to me.
Let’s take the case of CeMar’s since we all seem to know his sitch so well. I see a lot of myself in CeMar. I think he is guilty of two major faults. The first is his anger and resentment toward his wife. I think that anger stems from other issues (has anyone heard CeMar talk about his FOO?) He projects that anger onto his wife, hiding behind a self righteous religious wall. Falling back on religious justification for why his wife should honor and desire him is just rationalization for building up a case on entitlement, which in turn is just a deflection for confronting his own fears. He is trying top make his weaknesses the fault of his wife. IMO, that also has a touch of cowardice to it.
The other fault I see in CeMar is his refusal to project a strong attractive image to his wife, Blackfoot’s alpha male image. IMO, there are two levels to the alpha male. The lower level is more power based - setting boundaries and enacting consequences. The higher level can come into play after her other person learns to respect those boundaries. The alpha male can show his compassionate side. I wonder if CeMar has ever established his lower level first?
CeMar, if you have not purged your anger (because you have not confront your fears), and you have not learned to assert yourself in order to establish respect for your boundaries, how can your wife seriously accept any attempt you might make at trying to be alpha male?
CeMar, what about this scenario: When your wife talks to her girlfriends, she talks about your anger, negativity, cynicism, but also about your moping and feeling sorry for yourself. That paints a double image of unattractiveness. I would think most women find that repulsive, and they probably say so to your wife. But when your wife tells them she still gives you sex, they might be appalled that she can bring herself to do this, and think she must be some type of saint! In their eyes, your wife is doing everything right, even above and beyond the call of duty, and you are doing everything wrong. I am NOT saying she is justified AT ALL in this way of thinking, but if this is truly the case, what are YOU going to do to turn it around?
Interesting book, Fran. I see how the concept of one-up/one-down has applied to my own marriage...lots of control dynamics,with essentially H and I exploiting each other to make up for a lack of healthy esteem ( on both our parts). Hopefully he and I are maturing and developing a more solid sense of ourselves, where we feel truly like we have value individually and feel lucky to have one another. I am working on being the best person I can be, and H has recently said the same thing. Hopefully we can manage to drum up desire for each other...without all the drama. It does seem like power and control issues serve as powerful aphrodiasiacs, at least initially...until it all gets out of hand, resentments brew, people shut off, etc. A whole new way of relating then has to be developed.
I think your H is in a power struggle because he is trying to protect himself, trying to find who he is and rise out of the self hatred and insecurity. He is not the independent, loner type or he would have left a long time ago. I know he had the affair, but was his intention to really leave? If so, why did he come back? Maybe that was the only way he knew to call out for help and comfort.
Now if that is true, you have a role to play. Why did he have to resort to such drastic action to get your attention? Why do you consider yourself better looking, more attractive, more successful? Why would you marry someone like him in the first place? Could it be to make yourself feel more attractive and successful? What fears are you hiding behind that façade, fears that prevent you from giving to your H what he needs (whether those needs are immature or not)?
He feels he does everything for you because he wants you to do everything for him. Isn’t that easy to see? But his poor self esteem and self image prevent him from accepting your gifts and feeling good about himself when you do give him what he wants. He traps you in a catch 22. Why? Maybe he is comfortable in that role, because then he won’t have to confront the scary notion of becoming intimate and vulnerable with you. And you with him.
I agree that guilt plays into your sitch, but I think it is a symptom and not the core issue. The recommendations you state from the book are exactly what is needed. I do believe that ONLY the one-down can fix his/her own sense self esteem and confidence. But the spouse can help more than anyone else, just as you would boost confidence in your child (did your H ever get that kind of boost from his parents?) That includes boundaries to prevent your H from leaning too heavily on you and taking the easy way out.
I am coming to see this more and more as a weaning process, just like those studies of the insecurely attached baby monkeys who are afraid to leave their mother. Those babies can be rehabilitated. With people it takes time, compassion, and AWARENESS on the part of both partners that they are working on a real, identifiable problem, and not just falling back into familiar, dysfunctional roles. The mother monkey has to keep nudging the baby out into the real world, as scary as it is for both of them.
Quote: Otherwise, where are the success stories to prove me wrong? Hope is not an operative word for someone who is already insecure! Hope is based on faith, and when someone has a traumatic past, there is no hope. Putting your faith in the hands of another is the hardest and scariest thing you can do. Corri, you know this all too well. So why propose someone do just that in order to repair the marriage? The reason there are so few success stories on this board is becoming very clear to me.
I suppose it will depend on how you define success. I personally see a lot of success on this board. What I find interesting is I've seen one, maybe two, men succeed, and many more women succeed.
Quote: The philosophy I see on this board is that you fix yourself first in the hopes that your spouse will then give you the comfort you want. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. In fact I think the majority of the time it does not work.
What is marked in bold is where you and I divert. If you change you in order to get something from someone else, you may as well save yourself the time. This, I believe, is where people still experience their difficulties.
Again, we essentially agree in theory. I don't care how you get there, Cobra. Do whatever works for you. If you are seeing progress with your methods... share them and keep going.
You still do not understand the nature of power, and of a power struggle, nor does any other person on here who is not seeing some sort of progress. That is not a criticism. It is very hard to see, even harder to fix... harder still to put it behind you consistently.
I never advocated putting hope in the hands of another. That isn't hope. That's manipulation. I personally believe hope comes from within, but that is my personal belief.
Cobra: You said: I think your H is in a power struggle because he is trying to protect himself, trying to find who he is and rise out of the self hatred and insecurity. He is not the independent, loner type or he would have left a long time ago. I know he had the affair, but was his intention to really leave? If so, why did he come back? Maybe that was the only way he knew to call out for help and comfort. Yes it was completely a cry for help just as Heather’s was. He came back for many reasons some of which I can only guess at. One reason was because I didn’t beg him to. The OW gave him an ultimatum, he came to me to say she had told him to decide and said I had “20 minutes to convince me to stay” I said I couldn’t convince him it was entirely up to him to decide what to do, both for the M and for the kids but that it was up to him. That seemed to do it. He came back because she was a nutter. He came back because I said sorry. After that we put the issue away, he kept being remorseful and I kept saying “water under the bridge”, “both had our part to play” etc.
Now if that is true, you have a role to play. Why did he have to resort to such drastic action to get your attention? [colour:blue] I’m not sure, of course there was the pull from OW’s side, but he felt his needs were not being met. I did not feel mine were either. When he begged me to meet his it felt like whining – I was SAHM and the kids were aged 3 and 1 at the time, the youngest still wasn’t sleeping through. If I mentioned I might have needs too he would say let’s not play tit for tat Why do you consider yourself better looking, more attractive, more successful? Why would you marry someone like him in the first place? Could it be to make yourself feel more attractive and successful? When I met H he was 21 and I was 27, he was a placement student where I worked, I was his boss, there were a lot of bees buzzing around this particular honeypot at the time but he happened to get there first and I felt safe I guess putting him between me and them. I was going through the break-up with BF at the time my whole life seemed incredibly complicated and he was a comfort – like a teddy bear – and not too much maintenance. He himself has stated on numerous occasions that I am better looking, that he loves me more than I do him, that he is unworthy of me, that I am more intelligent. Other people mention they think I am younger than he is, tell me I could do so much better, etc. I don’t think all of these things are true by any means but when you keep hearing it… Ex-BF and I were much more equal. We were the same age, we were both students when we met. He used to come up behind me when I was doing make-up and look in the mirror with me and say “aren’t we a good-looking couple”. If I had a bright idea or trounced him in a debate he would say with a twinkle “now you’re acting almost as intelligent as me.” I was devastated by the break-up – that is clearly why I hooked up with H, chicken-soup for the soul, he’s always been a sweetie-pie. He is very intelligent and he had the makings of the successful professional he has turned out to be even back then, he was miles ahead of any of the other placement students I managed so I wasn’t marrying a complete loser. I think what fixed it was that we went away back-packing together for a year – kind of forced together us against the world and a bonding experience. While we were away he said “will we live together when we get back” and I said off the cuff “not unless you marry me” I didn’t really mean it that way – I just felt I’d been burned by living with ex-BF and I wanted to focus the mind and not just drift into another living together arrangement – so it was just a statement of intent that I wasn’t going to be living with anyone that I wasn’t married to. He took me at my word and two days later asked me to marry him. I accepted, I guess it felt like comfort and safety.
What fears are you hiding behind that façade, fears that prevent you from giving to your H what he needs (whether those needs are immature or not)? Good question – really hard for me to see, if I could reveal them here I guess I could reveal them to H, but I think whatever they are they are buried pretty deep. Essentially I think we got together when I was in a pathological state (a temporary pathological state). We stayed together because of unusual reasons (much like you and Mrs Cobra – though not quite so irrevocable). The arrangement was stable, not perfect, but fine and stable – until the kids came along. We’d been married 9 years so I guess adapting to the change was difficult by that point. I think he was kind of resigned to existing on crumbs from the table of the adored as the crumbs were reasonably substantial and I was resigned to being flattered, charmed and spoilt rather than enjoying a close intimacy. In a way it was the lack of intimacy which shoved me in the direction of motherhood – I needed more connection and as he wouldn’t/couldn’t provide it I thought kids would. Unfortunately what neither of us foresaw was that the crumb supply would dry up and his reaction to that would be so immediate (2 days after S7 was born) and so intense. I couldn’t recover from the onslaught of his recrimination – I guess he saw S as a rival for my affections and since he must have felt supply was short in the first place he couldn’t cope with having to share. When he left he said “I can’t compete with the kids” – my reply was that he shouldn’t have to. In other words that he’s not a kid.
He feels he does everything for you because he wants you to do everything for him. Isn’t that easy to see? Yes and I would prefer him to do more for himself. I am quite happy without a manservant (as he used to be in the early stages) and I certainly don’t want to have to reciprocate that. I say it is easy to see, but it wouldn’t have been in the past, before I came to these boards and learnt so much more about human relationships. Before it was impossible to see because I couldn’t put myself in those shoes. Equally the WOA that he was so fond of showering me with, too much but it is obvious now that that is what he wanted to hear coming back. I wanted independence and for him to have independence, I wanted quality time – in other words a meeting of minds, chatter, connection, a mutual appreciation of each other’s minds in the same way that you can have a mutual appreciation of each other’s bodies. He found that buggy and annoying, he prefers silence and time to himself, he also prefers to do than to talk. I also think he doesn’t like talking about anything where he doesn’t have expertise, he doesn’t like to talk speculatively. He doesn’t like to be outwitted in a debate so he doesn’t like to enter into it. I like pitching wits, and I feel admiration for someone who can outwit me (after I’ve put up a good fight – LOL) but he’s uncomfortable in that territory.
But his poor self esteem and self image prevent him from accepting your gifts and feeling good about himself when you do give him what he wants. He traps you in a catch 22. Why? Maybe he is comfortable in that role, because then he won’t have to confront the scary notion of becoming intimate and vulnerable with you.Yes And you with him. Yes
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
