I have been dealing with the LD W now for over 15 years. I won't go into a lot of detail (I have in past posts) but in short she avoids sexual intimacy with me whenever possible. If she absolutely has to do it, she wants to get it over with as soon as possible. We have sex maybe 7-10 times a year, with some manual release for me in between. It is of course, very unfulfilling to say the least. But it finally came to me what's going on. A couple of weeks ago we found ourselves without the kids for a few hours one evening. First time of that in months. Of course, I had a suggestion for what to do with our time. She was incredulous. "Why does it always have to be about sex?", she asked. "Because we haven't had sex in over a month." was my answer. I told her I really wanted, needed to be, intimate with her. Then she said "Why can't we just have non-sexual intimacy, like going out for coffee or something?" I'd never heard the term "non-sexual intimacy" before, but it does strike a cord. Non-sexual intimacy is something you have with a buddy or a sibling. I think although she doesn't realize it, she now thinks of me as a buddy. She wants me to be a father to our kids, a provider, a companion, a buddy, but not a husband. Somewhere along the line about 15 years ago she stopped thinking of me as a husband. I'm sure most of us have at one time or another, had someone you were attracted to who only wanted to "just be friends." I think that is what is going on here. It didn't start out that way, but somehow evolved over time.
Ummmm, while I see your point...actually non-sexual intimacy needs to be present in your M as well. This is something my H and I had to work on. In our sitch it was my LDH who was the "why does everything have to be about sex?" person and I was the "because we haven't had it in three months".
There does need to be a non-sexual intimacy between the two of you that exists to some level. Some people need that more than others, perhaps that's one way she feels loved by you....and having that present to a larger extent might get you closer to your goal of more sexual intimacy.
My H and I got to a point where we never went out, never spent time alone with each other over dinner....talking, taking walks...what have you. Everything was about work and our son. There was no intimacy on any level. When we started making a concerted effort to have date nights at least every other week....we began to grow closer and the intimacy increased. I've found too that it's not the same type of intimacy you have with a buddy. It's different. Sure you may be doing things with her you could do with a friend....but it's spending the time with her (she may be a quality time person for her primary love language) that creates the bond she needs from you.
As Gel posted, non-sexual intimacy is something many people have to have in order to more fully participate in sexual intimacy.
Folks can also have lots of sex and never approach intimacy.
Does your wife orgasm? Do the two of you go on dates together where it's just the two of you? Do you spend anytime during the week where the focus is on each other?
Quote: As Gel posted, non-sexual intimacy is something many people have to have in order to more fully participate in sexual intimacy.
Folks can also have lots of sex and never approach intimacy.
Does your wife orgasm? Do the two of you go on dates together where it's just the two of you? Do you spend anytime during the week where the focus is on each other?
MrsNOP -
My wife and I spend a lot of time together talking and doing things together. We have plenty of non-sexual intimacy. That's my whole point. We get along great and enjoy each other's company a lot. The point is, when we have a chance to have sexual intimacy, she avoids it. When we are sexually intimate she wants to get it over with as soon as possible, so no, she doesn't orgasm. She doesn't want any foreplay or afterplay, just get it over with. Believe me, I try every time to get her involved, she just doesn't want to. Sometimes I don't necessarily want sex, I just want to kiss her and caress her. Anytime we try to do that she seems uncomfortable. Even if I try to hold her hand or put my arm around her when we are in public, she seems uncomfortable, even though she says that what she wants me to do. Over the 15 or so year span of this behavior we've talked about it at various times, but it always ends up with her making me feel bad for wanting to have sex with her. After our discussion it will usually get better for a month or so, then start slipping back into the old pattern. I can say without reservation there has been only ONE TIME I can think of in the past 15 years where I felt like she wanted to be a participant. Basically it's all about excuses and deflection. I have heard just about every excuse in the book, and some especially creative ones that would be funny if it weren't so serious. I think her comment about non-sexual intimacy that night was just another attempt at deflection.
Quote: Game, (sorry if you've already answered this and I missed it) does your W have any sexual abuse in her past?
She maintains there was no abuse in her past. I tend to believe it because things were relatively normal for us for the first 3-4 years we were married. We had a very good sex life over that time period.
Sometimes early in a R, issues don't come to the surface because people haven't established the level of trust that enables them to really be ALL of themselves. Sometimes when problems surface down the road, it's not a bad sign, it's actually a good sign, because it means the person now feels safe enough to let some of the skeletons out of the closet. Alas, that is one of the glories, as well as one of the perils of a truly deep, intimate R-- you get to see the pain that your partner has kept hidden in his/her heart from everyone else.
Quote: My wife and I spend a lot of time together talking and doing things together. We have plenty of non-sexual intimacy. That's my whole point. We get along great and enjoy each other's company a lot. The point is, when we have a chance to have sexual intimacy, she avoids it. When we are sexually intimate she wants to get it over with as soon as possible, so no, she doesn't orgasm.
Has she ever orgasmed, with or without you?
Have you ever discussed with your wife what she considers to be non-sexual intimacy?
The "we get along great" is something that my husband and I would have said too. And we would have meant it.
But you know, I think if you examine it, it probably breaks down to "we get along great as long as I don't ask for things that are important to me."
People who get along great when there are destructive issues in the marriage, are only doing so by ignoring the issues a majority of the time, IMO.
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She doesn't want any foreplay or afterplay, just get it over with. Believe me, I try every time to get her involved, she just doesn't want to. Sometimes I don't necessarily want sex, I just want to kiss her and caress her. Anytime we try to do that she seems uncomfortable. Even if I try to hold her hand or put my arm around her when we are in public, she seems uncomfortable, even though she says that what she wants me to do.
If she's stiff and unresponsive during sex, she's probably interpreting absolutely every physical touch from you as a prelude to sex.
When you perceive her reaction as being uncomfortable, have you ever asked her at that moment about it? IE. "When I hugged you just now, I felt that you were pulling away from me. Is that accurate and if so, why were you feeling uncomfortable?" What sort of reaction is she displaying that makes her seem uncomfortable?
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Over the 15 or so year span of this behavior we've talked about it at various times, but it always ends up with her making me feel bad for wanting to have sex with her.
What is she saying or doing that results in you feeling bad?
Does she acknowledge that lack of sex in your marriage is a problem for the marriage. Or has she told you that it is your problem alone?
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After our discussion it will usually get better for a month or so, then start slipping back into the old pattern. I can say without reservation there has been only ONE TIME I can think of in the past 15 years where I felt like she wanted to be a participant.
While women can and do enjoy sex without orgasm on occasion, I think the continual lack of orgasm will almost always result in a strong reluctance to have sex.
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Basically it's all about excuses and deflection. I have heard just about every excuse in the book, and some especially creative ones that would be funny if it weren't so serious. I think her comment about non-sexual intimacy that night was just another attempt at deflection.
Perhaps it was. I know it becomes easier for the LD spouse to separate out each occurance of rejection with some accompanying "excuse". With this caveat - they probably believe the excuse at the time they give it. The thought process goes something like this:
He wants sex again. I really don't *feel* like it. In fact, I feel sleepy (or sore, or hungry, or tired, or disconnected, etc.) *That's* why I don't want to have sex.
I would encourage you to exercise caution on labeling her responses as "deflections".
Our process out of our SSM started when my husband made it clear *daily* that it was a problem that was going to have to be addressed. The next step was when I acknowledged that it was a problem. As we continued having the huge discussions (okay, many of them could be called arguments ) - I would tell my husband what my issues were in the marriage, things that had caused me hurt. His intial response was that I was just deflecting. It was not until he acknowledged that I had major issues with the relationship that needed to be addressed *while* we addressed the sex issues, that we then began the slow progression out of the sexual pit.
The first step is to arrive at a place where the LD spouse acknowledges that the problem isn't *yours* alone. The next step (IMO) is to put together a plan. For us it was a schedule, ie. on this day and that day we will have sex. If you do not put together an actual plan that the both of you agree to, then you're left again with trying to operate on feelings alone. Which leads to the drifting away as the LD spouse reverts back to the position in which they are most comfortable.
I noticed that when when you talk about the solution to this problem, you talk about schedules. There is no mention of fixing desire. How do you plan to fix the desire issue or is that not an issue?
It works in stages Cemar, schedules are a good starting point because the LD partner doesn't feel always "hounded" and the HD partner doesn't feel always "desperate". If you introduce the concept of a schedule to the LD spouse then I think it's best to say "let's start by having a schedule" - that way they know it's not the end of the story and they will start to need to be present in spirit as well as body.
You've complained here about having to do all kinds of things for the LD spouse and it is taken for granted that they need these things before you can get sex. Are you sure you are not just "going through the motions" as much as the LD spouse is doing for sex? Maybe that's why these things haven't been working for you.
In a C session the other week our c asked if we thanked each other for things. H said that I did thank him but that it sounded false. I said that I felt grateful and whereas before I would just feel grateful but not say anything because I kind of expected him to know I was grateful now I made a conscious effort to say thank-you. The C said that sometimes new habits do feel false for a while because we are practising them before they come naturally. Scheduling sex is a bit like this, it will feel false at first, maybe for months or longer but eventually it will become a good habit something that will come as easily to your W as making you a cup of coffee. You're allowed to ask for coffee the way you want it...
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
) - I would tell my husband what my issues were in the marriage, things that had caused me hurt. His intial response was that I was just deflecting. It was not until he acknowledged that I had major issues with the relationship that needed to be addressed *while* we addressed the sex issues, that we then began the slow progression out of the sexual pit.