In-Law Boundary

[Corri]

Cobra:

I didn't say there were not potential boundary violations going on. I'm saying it is incumbent upon Chrome to state and then hold firm on those boundaries. He's hoping his MIL will change so he doesn't have to deal with the issue any more. That's control.

Say that Chrome’s mother is coming over often and commenting to his W on her cooking, that she needs to feed the kids better, cook more variety, whatever. Now say W just ignores her

Good for her. That is a good boundary.

so MIL goes to Chrome to press her case. Then suppose that Chrome sympathizes with his mother (because he really wants his wife to cook better but is afraid to say so).

It is not hard to imagine the resentment that will build up in his wife in a fairly short period of time.

It is his wife's choice to feel resentment. If this type of scenario is unacceptable to his wife... a boundary... then she can state: "I am no longer willing to live in a marriage where your MIL continually meddles in our M."

If W is unwilling to leave the marriage, for whatever reason, over the issue, she can leave the home when the MIL comes over. The H feeling sorry for himself for not getting different meals is HIS problem, not hers. If the MIL wants to come over every night and fix the dinners herself... hey... great.

A counselor would jump all over Chrome, telling him to support his W and to tell his mother to back off and stop meddling.

Probably. But just because the C would state it doesn't mean the W and MIL will agree, or change. Does that make them wrong? Let's say... yeah. Now what? He's right, their wrong, and the B.S. continues. I'm sure Chrome will sleep better at night knowing he is right.

There is a sense of loyalty and betrayal involved here and Chrome would be violating that with his W. His allegiance would be to his mother and his W would sense that.

Yep. There sure would. Sad situation indeed. This has nothing to do with boundaries, however.

Chrome’s W is choosing her mother over Chrome, undermining his authority, his wishes as a husband and father, and allowing her mother to drive a wedge between them. It is a passive aggressive act on her part, letting her mother do the “dirty” work instead of confronting Chrome herself about an issue she may have.

So?

As a matter of opinion, I happen to agree with you. But opinions are opinions, and only that. Boundaries are what people use to define and defend their OWN integrity. I think it very sad the behaviors of Chrome's MIL and W. But Chrome is the only one who can stick up for himself FOR HIMSELF, not to control his W or his MIL.

Corri

[Corri]

Chrome:

Btw, I think HP's and Mrs. Nop's suggestions are very good ones for starters. Humor and not fading into the background when she can clearly be heard speaking about you in your presence. Yes... start there.

AND... MIL may continue to do these things... which you can ignore, if you and your W are in agreement privately. If your W begins to side with your MIL over you, then you have a different boundary issue with your W.

Corri

[Sandy_wants_to_try]

Hi guys...
Excuse me for jumping in quickly, as a gal , and asking if wife has no say in these boundaries? They are common boundaries, right? House...kids... MIL's not telling you what cologne you should wear.

Perhaps the boundaries should be discussed with W and together you set them up and enforce them?

The point is you guys are grown up. If you decide kids don't need pants and wife agrees, it doesn't matter what MIL says. Don't let it get to you. If wife agrees with MIL, then fine, she gets a say too. If you really want to make a big deal out of whether the kids wear pants or not, you can call a family meeting to decide whether or not to take MIL's advice. You and your W decide. Pick your battles... It's OK to take MILs advice sometimes.

About the redecorating, W should also be able to say, Mom, we're discussing it/we've discussed it. And that's that. There should be common boundaries you both are aware of.

Your wife is juggling between listening to her Mom's advice while still trying to have her mom respect you. It's not easy!! Trust me!

Pick your battles well... it's not easy being that near MIL!

[chromosphere]

MrsNOP

1. How combative is your MIL?

Non-combative in word choice, but VERY combative in terms of persistence. She in general doesn't stop until she gets her way.

I have a hard time with #2 personally. I couch my verbal communication in southernese and twist myself up in knots trying to find the best way to address something when my conflict-avoidance issues are screaming at me.

Bingo. Pegged me to a T.

So, stop pretending you don't hear her.

I guess what I was doing was P/A behavior myself. I was hoping to hear my W take my side. I should stop hoping and wishing other people would do certain things and start doing what I can myself.

Thanks for the pointers.

Chrome

[cac4]

I am going into this with both eyes wide open. Financially this will put my family in a very good place as we are getting a good "family deal" on it. However, if after a set period of time it is clear that our M and family is suffering unduly because of the IL proximity, I will sell the house and move my family, and we will still have benefitted financially from the time we were there. I have made my intentions perfectly clear to my W.

Chrome

well, I hope it works out...could be a "good deal"...could be not so good, if it breaks up your family and you wind up paying for 2 houses.
you know, they make sit-coms about this kind of "whacky" situation.

and actually, my MIL had to live like this irt HER MIL. (across the street). How they survived like that for so many years, I just don't know.

[heatherg]

Good discussion.

You can certainly bring your concern to their attention and state your preferences... ask for understanding... but if they decline and continue in the same manner, action is now incumbent upon YOU... if your action is to get them to change... you've got yourself a control issue.

I see so much potential for escalation here.

I just would have called into the room where your wife was and just said 'Hon, I don't think it's cold enough to warrant changing their clothes, but I'll grab sweaters for them'. It keeps you in charge and in a non-confrontational way, lets your MIL know that you will not allow her to overstep.

[Cobra]

Corri,

I have not been posting on this board recently, taking the time to think things over (and I hope to post a new thread when I get some time), but this issue with Chrome touches on what I have been considering. Yes it may be true that each person, Chrome, his W and his MIL are each responsible for their own actions and that if no one changes then things could go downhill. BUT, there is a world of difference in his wife siding with her mother over siding with Chrome. Her mother is not living in the house and dealing with the after effects of her meddling.

It may be ideal to hold oneself above the fray, to not get dragged into the muck, but I have not seen one person here who is capable of doing that. Not one, including you, Lil, GEL, Blackfoot, Mrs Nop, etc. We may talk a good line on this board, but in real life, the reality of our dysfunction comes back into the picture and we get all wound up again. I no longer think it is realistic to continually ignore this reality. It becomes self deception.

We are all dysfunctional, or we would not be here. Our spouses are equally dysfunctional. These patterns are sooooo ingrained that we will NEVER purge ourselves of them. We can moderate and adjust our responses, but our basic reaction to fear and abandonment can ever change.

What I am saying to Chrome is that I think he SHOULD stand up for himself and say something to his wife with the EXPECTATION of her telling her mother to cut it out. Furthermore, I think he is warranted in EXPECTING his MIL to stop. She can keep thinking as she likes, but she can just keep her thoughts to herself. If she does not, then she is IMPOSING on the marriage and through her actions actively placing a wedge between Chrome and his wife. So I see nothing wrong with Chrome expecting MIL to stop. Not doing so has severe consequences for the marriage. Any meddling MIL worth her salt will know exactly how to exploit a weak marriage, and will have no qualms about doing so. I see not reason for Chrome to sacrifice his peace of mind merely to appease her and his wife. This whole issue should not even come up.

I think Chrome needs to confront his wife on this and ask her to talk to her mother. In essence he is asking her to make a choice between him and her mother. If she chooses her mother, then Chrome can let his wife know that he is unhappy and that he has some limit to the amount of unhappiness he will take before he leaves the marriage. But he does not know where that limit is, and neither does she. Leaving your kids is no small task. As we have seen here, men will take a lot of crap before leaving, all the while making the family more and more dysfunctional.

The other option Chrome has, if his wife will not confront her mother, is for Chrome to confront MIL himself. He can explain very politely his feelings and why he wants MIL to stop. Or he can even be angry about it. But either way, his wife will then be the one to make a choice as to how much confrontation between Chrome and her mother SHE (the W) is willing to tolerate. As usual, the end result is that both partners end up taking some of the blame and frustration. Splitting this between the two may actually be the better way to balance the issue, rather than putting the whole burden on Chrome. The theoretical may sound great, but I just don’t see anymore where it actually works.

Of course, this all assumes that Chrome is doing his part to be forthright and honest with his wife about where he stands in the marriage, right Chrome? Otherwise, she may feel some level of entitlement in siding with her mother.

[Corri]

Cobra:

I did not say that Chrome SHOULD remain above the fray. I said it was a great option.

We are agreeing, in essence, on what boundaries are. The why's, the wherefore's, the when's, whether his W is right, wrong or indifferent... whether she is ethically, morally or socially correct in her actions, are not my concern. Those are Chrome's concerns. Do I have an opinion. Well, of course. But that is not what Chrome was asking for. He was asking about boundaries... not why or why not I think what his W and MIL are doing are right/wrong/indifferent.

Okay?

It is up to Chrome to decide what his boundaries are, when they have been violated, and some potential options he has, when they are violated. What I think he should do... is irrelevent.

Corri

[chromosphere]

Corri,

Yes.... based upon whatever your boundary, in fact, is.

See, this is why I started this thread. I really have a hard time defining boundaries. And then just when I think I have I talk myself out of it because I worry about it being insensitive to the needs of others. Or when the boundary gets tested in some way I let it flex because I don't want to create waves. Not very alpha male of me for sure ...

Clearly, remodeling is not the issue. The issue is, you feeled ganged up on.

Right, the remodeling/clothing issues were just specific examples of what creates the feeling of being "ganged up on" as you say.

Know yourself. Know your preferences, but know that preferences allow for wiggle-room, negotiation. Boundaries are NON-NEGOTIABLE. There is no discussion because it is a matter of YOUR integrity, respect for your self.

Again, here is where I have trouble. There are some things that are more likely just preferences that I elevate to boundary status in my mind when they are put under pressure. I guess what I am saying is that when I feel my preferences are not given due consideration, it tends to create resentment inside me out of proportion to how strongly I really feel about the situation. This is probably caused by a combination of low-self-esteem and lack of intimacy (i.e. sexual rejection). So in my mind, a preference, such as not having beaded board in the bathroom, becomes a violation of my boundaries when my MIL persists for 15 minutes trying to tell me how I am being unreasonable in not wanting it.

Is it something you don't like, or something you see as unacceptable? If it is unacceptable, what are you doing about it?

It is UNACCEPTABLE to me, primarily because I see it as one of the major causes of our lack of intimacy over the last 6 years. It is hard to be truly intimate with your H when you are stuck in "daughter mode" by the machinations of a controlling parent.

I honestly don't know what to do about it though. That is what I am searching for here.

but neither are you trusting and respecting them by anticipating their actions/responses and avoiding potential conflict.

I do have a problem with over-anticipating responses for sure. Just thinking about it now, I can see how having sieve-like boundaries has enabled MIL to dominate me and my W, thus created a perhaps unconcious pattern in her mind that justifies the behavior. So my recourse is to be firm and obviously so enough times that MIL sees that her old behavior won't garner the same results as before.

Thanks Corri,
Chrome

[chromosphere]

HP,

I do like the humor approach, especially in light of what I just posted to Corri. As it seems to be plain to me, I am escalating a simple "preference" situation to boundary status, one way I can defuse it in my own mind is to try to be light-hearted about it.

The downside of handling it this way is that it may take longer for her to realize that you are setting a boundary with her, than it would if you used brutally direct language.

Well, brutally direct language only serves to make MIL "go underground." I have seen FIL really put his foot down on something only to have her patiently "sap the walls" (for those of you who know siege language) and get her way anyway.

However, it avoids the "what's up chrome's ass?" convo that she would no doubt have with your wife, later on.

I'll have to admit, given the convos she has within earshot of me, I do fear what she actually says behind my back. One thing I don't know if I've ever mentioned is that MIL didn't originally approve of my M to W. She felt like my W attached herself to me too quickly and should have dated around more. And then I made the mistake of not asking permission of her and FIL before I proposed. I was young and stupid and not aware of the southern traditions about such things. FIL also "didn't approve" at first, but I think he didn't approve because MIL would have made him pay if he didn't support her on that position. I wonder if some of MIL's activities are caused by left-over resentment toward me. Anyway, that is a tangent and probably not a fruitful one. Back to boundaries.

I doubt she means to meddle, it's just that a pattern was set early in in your R (by yourself and your wife) and it happens to be one MIL likes because it affords her a position of prominence in your lives.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

will have to have a smidge of aggressiveness in your voice; it can't be all laughs and giggles. I'm sure you kwim.

Yes I do. Pure light-heartedness is easy to dismiss.

Thanks HP
Chrome