Burgbud, thanks for checking in on me in my last thread. It was good to see a friendly face
GEL, I did read your last post on my thread and was not ignoring it, just didn't respond because I agree and I know you are right. That's all I can really say. I am working toward it, working toward changing my demeanor in general, not just toward H.
I'm still here everyday although I don't post everyday and haven't maintained a thread for a little while now. I felt I was so wrapped up in the dynamics of my M, in what my H was and was not doing, that I was failing to see where I had any power to change anything either in my M or my life.
I stopped posting, haven't been to IC in weeks (although I do have an appt today), I've stopped reading fix-it books and as a result of not posting here I have not had anyone to talk to about my M which means I haven't talked about it. I honestly haven't thought about it much either.
Result: I am in a much more positive place, I am able to feel my personal power in my life. I am calmer, more peaceful. My H has been travelling a great deal, he was gone for about a month, then home for two weeks and gone for another month (of which we're about halfway into). So part of my peace is due to him being gone. Plain and simple, we do not mesh well. His style of living interferes with mine. I like it when he's gone, but I also like the security of knowing he's not GONE gone. I also have the support of his family should I need anything or want to be around people.
I know I need to branch out somehow, expand my support network beyond H's family. I do have one other friend I occassionally hang out with, she has children too. If not for her kids though, I probably would not see her because we don't have much in common. I am asking the universe for a friend I guess, someone near me with values similar to mine. Someone who inspires me, challenges me to grow in the ways I am trying to grow-spriritually and creatively.
So, ok, I have peace of mind. Something that has been nagging at me though....am I running? Running from problems because I can't solve them? For instance, we are thinking about building a new house. I loved Chrome's analogy on his thread about building the foundation for the house, building the foundation for a new R. Maybe we can entangle the two and they can invoke positive stuff for us. But I wonder....where will we sleep? If he sees I'm recommitted (as surely buying a house I can't comfortably afford on my own must surely indicate, right?) will he put his ring back on?
Then I think, what difference does it make? For right now, right this minute, we have to start somewhere. This house has to be that starting place, for many different reasons that I am positive on. So, it's possible that we'll get into this house only to find two, three years from now that the M is still not thriving. Ok, I'll guess I'll have to take it from there. But I have to give it a chance right? And if I keep plagueing myself with these negative thoughts, then I can't possibly allow myself to build a house with a man whom I can't even sleep with. And that would be bad, because like I said, for several reasons, the house is necessary at this stage in our lives.
I'm thinking that I'm not running away, just choosing not to dwell on the things I can't control and trying to take whatever positive steps I can in my M.
Edited to add:
I should probably include a brief history...I haven't done so in a while.
Me-31
H-32
S-5
D-3
Married in 2000, but together since high school
I had a PA of sorts and an EA with two different people at the same time....EA was through internet with someone I had never met. PA was not someone I was not emotionally attached to.
Came clean with H about 27 months ago.
Marriage has been in shambles ever since, although some aspects have gotten much better. Never separated.
Last edited by heatherg; 09/14/0603:46 PM.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Sometimes time away from the boards helps doesn't it?
You know, if you feel you need a friend (wish I were closer) join groups, join clubs, take a class...put yourself out where you will meet other women....and then strike up a conversation with someone who seems interesting. Having a good friend is something we all need....I don't know what I would have done without my best friend, she's an absolute God send!!! I've been there for her many, many times when she's needed me....but she's also always there for me....no questions asked!
It's funny...I can so relate to your comment about your styles of living not meshing. My H and I aren't quite like that....we live well together most of the time, but I'm a very independent person by nature....so when he's on a field trip to fix a plane, or working the shifts where I only really see him right before he falls sleep or on the weekends.....it's so peaceful for me.
Here's a thought for ya about the house too....if you wonder if he'll put the ring back on, why don't you simply ask him to? Let him know that building this house is a symbol of full recommitment to your M to you and let him know that his wearing his ring would be just as symbolic to you. Don't wonder...just ask hon, when the timing is right....and you aren't yelling at each other Just joshing!
Glad to see you back here. You do the work on yourself that you need to....and hey! If you need a friend e-mail me.
About making friends, I know I need to put myself out there somehow. The somehow is what I haven't figured out yet...there is only one...wait now two...girls in my karate class. One is much younger, still in high school, so not much in common there. The other...maybe. I haven't explored that enough to give a fair answer. She came late to the karate picnic we had this past Sunday so I haven't really had a chance to speak to her at all. I've noticed that while I feel peaceful when H is gone, it does infringe on my ability to focus my attention anywhere but the kids, lol. So, having H home does have benefits.
I could ask H about his intentions with his ring or where we would sleep in the new house, although would you agree that asking implies pressure? I'm trying to stay away from anything that implies pressure simply because my goal would be for him to perceive my recommitment to the R with no strings attached. Not only does it logically make sense to me, the tendency toward this comes from within....it feels natural to me to think that he would want to see these actions from me, not expecting anything in return. I'm sure there about a million ways to approach this situation, but this is what feels natural to me. I know that sometimes just because something feels natural doesn't make it the best approach particularly if one is avoiding growth. I don't feel like that's my motive, but please let me know if you see otherwise.
Thanks for the offer to email, that was really sweet. I truly do appreciate it....is your address posted somewhere?
Update: Saw my C today. I love her, I think she's great. But I don't think she helps me. I cried about my situation today for the first time....in a while. I don't want to cry anymore. I can't even remember for sure what she said that made me cry, but I think it was when she stated that she could see I was in pain and she knows this has been a long road for me, too long. Empathy, pity, compassion, whatever you want to call it always makes me feel sorry for myself.
She is convinced that H has issues with intimacy that either started long before me and/or had nothing to do with me or my A. She is also really concerned with his pornography habits, she brings it up just about every session. She expresses a great deal of concern about the 'abnormalcy' of H being able to live with me and not want sex to the point where he continues to turn his back on me like he does. She said I am young and beautiful (ahem, yeah ok, lol) and hasn't met too many men who would be able to live in the same house with me and not want to be sexual and intimate. I have to say that I pretty much stopped cold when she said that, because I know I couldn't do it to him....but still, I don't know what that proves.
There's too much talking about H I think. It seems she's sort of fascinated by his oddities and although she can see why I stay, feels I deserve more. Deserve, the word did not escape my attention in light of the discussions on the boards about deserving nothing...you can pursue it but do not 'deserve' it. I did not counter her point though, just thought it.
Oddly enough each counselor I've had, there's been three because of H's preferences, seems to put my happiness first which surprises me considering I'm a mother of two. I've been surprised at how much the 'outside world' leans toward intimacy and emotional connection...although I wonder how much each of them truly has in their own lives, ya know?
Enough rambling, 5:30am comes early.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
It's not odd that your C's would put YOUR happiness 1st, they are seeing YOU afterall...not you & your children. You are there for them to focus on you, not someone else.
As for her comment about (She expresses a great deal of concern about the 'abnormalcy' of H being able to live with me and not want sex to the point where he continues to turn his back on me like he does. She said I am young and beautiful (ahem, yeah ok, lol) and hasn't met too many men who would be able to live in the same house with me and not want to be sexual and intimate.) Took me aback...she obviously hasn't met Mr. GEL LOL However, it's true Mr.GEL has issues that go way back. I'm sorry I forget...does your H see this C as well? If not he should be...so she can get a much clearer picture.
& No I don't believe asking your H about the ring & sleeping arrangements in the new house is pressure, it's also clarification for yourself....it's also you stating how you view things. You've made mistakes...but I also don't view it as reasonable for him to expect you to commit to a big financial decision like this AND continue the way things are right now. You have every right to express your view on this new endeavor as a new beginning for you two and to express that you two also try to start your new beginning by #1 wearing your rings, & #2 sleeping in the same room.
That's just my 2-cents. Oh & heather...I would suggest to you trying the excercise I posted on Cobra's thread too...you need it I think.
My e-mail is anitam at nordam dot com...use it anytime.
It seems she's sort of fascinated by his oddities and although she can see why I stay, feels I deserve more. Deserve, the word did not escape my attention in light of the discussions on the boards about deserving nothing...you can pursue it but do not 'deserve' it. I did not counter her point though, just thought it.
We all 'deserve' to be happy. We all 'deserve' to have our various needs met. We get married for a variety of reasons, but I think most of us want to love and be loved. It is an agreement to fullfill certain obligations.
In life, For the most part, we get what we earn/deserve. (not including real victims) We make choices (consciously or reactively) and live with the consequences. For example I choose to ride motorcycles and accept the consequences and pain that go along with it. Its my choice...even when its not my fault.
Our boundaries are for us. For our protection. We allow and either teach other people how to treat us or limit the depth and impact they have in our life. You have needs that deserve to be met.
You have gotten a measure of control over your entitlement and resentment. That gives you the contol of making informed conscious decisions without being abusive and reactive. Take your time, decide what you need and then do it even if it requires painful choices. Attraction is not a choice, but you can still choose your actions despite it.
I could ask H about his intentions with his ring or where we would sleep in the new house, although would you agree that asking implies pressure? I'm trying to stay away from anything that implies pressure
Say what you feel then. ' H it would mean a lot to me if you wore your wedding ring.'
Any pressure he feels from that is not your job to own. Its his. So let it percolate. Its ok to feel hurt if/when you get rejection. Your emotions are telling you something is amiss. You were a victim of entitlement, dont be a martyr to obligation.
I was thinking this morning that she may be surprised to learn of all the beautiful women on this board whose H's don't want to be sexual with them. I think her concern stems from the fact that H obviously has a sex drive if he's viewing porn, but he and I have only had sex about 4 times this year, which is absolutely unheard of for us. So, she is convinced that it's intimacy issues. With your H, correct me if I'm wrong, he was getting his needs met through porn while turning you down right? So again, he had a drive, but for whatever reason didn't want to share it with you, felt more comfortable seeing you as Mom than sex kitten. With me though, H doesn't turn me down. In fact, our sex life could be booming probably. It's really my hesitation to go there that prevents it. I need to make sure I point that out to her. I don't think it will necessarily refute her intimacy theory because even if we had sex, although it's emotional and not just sex, he still holds me at an arms length so to speak by not allowing kissing or allowing me to sleep with him. The bottom line is that I'm not willing to have a booming sex life that is missing those elements because to me, they are critical. So, we go without. She also found it fitting that he rarely calls me by name. When it's just he and I, there's no need to directly address me and if the kids are around he refers to me as Mommy. I can't really remember the last time I heard him call me by name.
I'm sorry I forget...does your H see this C as well? If not he should be...so she can get a much clearer picture.
He started out going with me. I switched counselors so that we could start with someone new and unbiased and then he stopped going. Said I needed to show a greater degree of commitment before he would return. Now that I've kept seeing her, even if he did decide to return, we'd have to see a different C now because when we were both seeing her, if he couldn't make it I had to cancel the appt-he did not want me seeing her without him there so as not to bias her. But she has met him probably 5 times, so she at least has some idea of his disposition.
Oh & heather...I would suggest to you trying the excercise I posted on Cobra's thread too...you need it I think.
I will go and take a look, I haven't read yet what you're referring to. Thanks for posting your email address GEL.
We get married for a variety of reasons, but I think most of us want to love and be loved. It is an agreement to fullfill certain obligations.
Obligations, like the one I failed to meet? That just brings me back around to entitlement doesn't it? I broke our M vows BF. From H's perspective, it seems I have no right to expect anything from him when I couldnt' even keep my end of the bargain.
In life, For the most part, we get what we earn/deserve.
I completely agree.
We allow and either teach other people how to treat us or limit the depth and impact they have in our life.
I agree with this too, although it's hard medicine to swallow sometime because it implies that you are ultimately responsible for the way the people you choose to have in your life treat you. It doens't seem fair sometimes, but it also gives you the control to change it. Most people want to feel like they have the power to change the things in their lives that they do not like and by saying that people treat you the way you let them treat you, it at least puts the power back in your hands to change things around.
You have needs that deserve to be met.
My H deserved to have a W who didn't cheat on him too. I'm really not trying to be an antagonist, but do you see where that line of thinking gets me?
You have gotten a measure of control over your entitlement and resentment.
I've been repeating the serentiy prayer dozens of times a week, lol. H and I have also been very civil to one another....he's expressed some concern for me on certain issues which is something that's been missing from our R for years, I mean asking how I am personally doing regarding a situation. When he is nice to me, my resentment naturally subsides without much effort on my part.
Say what you feel then. ' H it would mean a lot to me if you wore your wedding ring.'
I'm wondering how he could not already know that. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's why he DOESN'T wear it, kwim? But like you said, that's his stuff. One of my problems is that direct talk sounds like uncessary fluff to me sometimes. I completely 100% agree that it's the best way to communicate, but can't seem to get the hang of doing it because it makes me feel stupid. The voice inside my head gets the better of me and says "Heather, duh, he knows you want him to wear his rings, he's gotten that much from other conversations and besides, why do you think he doesn't wear it in the first place....to hurt the neighbor's feelings?!" I really need to open a can on that voice, lol.
You were a victim of entitlement, dont be a martyr to obligation.
Point taken.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Heather is correct...my H does have an issue with viewing me as "Mom" sort of. He' has a whore/madonna issue.
If your H has an issue like this then...it's not upon you to solve it, it's completely HIS issue. What you will have to do is work on yourself on how to live with it, work around it, work on being genuine to yourself too.
I don't know that my H will ever really overcome his issue...but I am learning to find ways to work around it, so I don't feel so completely frustrated, so I understand it. It's great that you are seeing a C, that will be a great tool for you to learn how to cope with this. Your H though needs to be seeking therapy for this issue as well...if he will agree to.
Sorry you are going through this as well, it really sucks doesn't it?
Same here, with a small difference. I didn't necessarily want to be a sex kitten...until I learned that my H was viewing stuff on the internet that he apparently thought was hot. I needed to know that I could be that person for someone else. OM was completely taken with me, though he was not someone I would ever have been attracted to off the street, kwim? I liked that he liked me and that's all there was to it. Talk about desperate, huh?! But, I felt so disposable to H, that the situation with OM was REALLY, REALLY attractive to me.
But, acting on that attraction to someone else makes all the difference in the world. That's where we have to exercise good judgment and try to repair things within the context of the M, and I know you're struggling with the same issues. I learned the lesson the hard way and I see your lessons haven't come with a cheap price tag either.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Are you aware of what whore/madonna is? My H has a SD too...but it's not directed AT me, it's directed at women he doesn't respect/revere, ie, the whores he viewed online. Those women he held no respect for, they were simply sexual objects. I on the other hand he really respects, so his mind has a hard time reconciling sexual thoughts with me...because that would defile me (Madonna). Whore/Madonna...does not mean he sees me as both things.
Just wanted to make sure you were clear on what it means (if you already knew...just disregard this LOL).
Quote: The term Madonna-whore complex refers to a psychological complex in Freudian psychoanalysis that develops in the human male. The term is also used popularly, often with subtly different meanings.
According to Freudian psychology, this complex often develops when the sufferer is raised by a cold and distant mother. Such a man will often court women with qualities of his mother, hoping to fulfill a need for intimacy unmet in childhood. Often, the wife begins to be seen as mother to the husband — a Madonna figure — and thus not a possible object of sexual attraction. For this reason, in the mind of the sufferer love and sex cannot be mixed, and the man is reluctant to have sexual relations with his wife, for that, he thinks unconsciously, would be as incest. He will reserve sexuality for "bad" or "dirty" women, and will not develop normal feelings of love in these sexual relationships.
Popularly, the term is used to describe an unsatisfiable desire by a man to have his wife or other female partner exhibit both of these mutually exclusive traits. This introduces a dilemma where men may feel unable to love any women that can satisfy them sexually and are unable to be sexually satisfied by any women that they can love. Alternatively, the term is to describe or attempt to justify the behavior of men who pursue multiple women as a way of fulfilling each of these needs.
For some men, love and sex don't mix. They save love and marriage for "good" women, and only enjoy sex with "bad" women.
In cases of the Madonna/Whore Complex (or Syndrome), a husband's relationship with his wife may be based upon the unmet intimacy needs he had as an infant. He may unconsciously seek out a woman who reminds him of his mother so that those needs can finally be met.
When these men marry, they marry a "good" woman. For them, virginity or the lack thereof, divides "good" from "bad." They will love her, protect her, and treasure her.
They don't feel comfortable having sex with her once they marry. It would be "dirty," like having sex with their own mother, the purest "good" woman in their life.
When or if their wife becomes a mother, the lines blur even more for him between his wife and his mother.
The Madonna/Whore husband will be sexually active but not with his wife. He will have sex outside of marriage, not for love but because he has an active sex drive.
