I guess I just don't understand this at all. We were all getting to the point of Cobra focusing more on him and his problems. Once again he throws out another horrible accusation of something his wife did. Maybe to deflect his problems and us coming down on him for some things. I think he has very large ego problems and can't stand to be told he could be wrong. I can't help it part of me thinks he may be fabricating things. Because most of you like me feel this as horrible if she really told her daughter she would KILL her. Then the daughter says it to. Pouring water on a child.
So Cobra who paints himself as this caring loving father...what was he worried about this weekend. Asking for sex again. When she was tired asking her to come and help him masturbate. Seems this horrible action just feel from him mind. He focused on sex and again trying to point out all her problems and what he expects of her. You can totally tell how insecure you are at the thought she may deep down want to leave you. So much for that loving father trying to get a handle on an abusive situation. Even more to say on this board that it was just normal teenage behavior.
I hone4tly think and I may be wrong because his wife isn't here to defend herself. But I don't think his wife did those things. Can any of you on here say your main concern would be trying to get your wife to have sex with you after this kind of situation happened? Would you even feel like being next to that person if your child was just abused? I can answer for me....if my spouse had done those things he wouldn't even be in my house. Let alone try to have sex.
I decided long ago you were not worth responding to. Now you want to call me a liar becasue you can't understand what's going on? She said she was tired, but she stayed up much later, until almost 3:00 am. So how tired do you really think she was at 11:00?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe part of what she initiallt says is not what she really means? That saying she is tired is just a simple defelction on her part to avoid too much intimacy, but after thinking it over a little, she realized she could handle it and it would be a show of good faith on her part, in return for the work I did for all all day? Or do you only see things from your perspective?
Sorry, Cally. You're an idiot. Plain and simple.
Corri,
No there was no influence from any planetary alignment or dumb luck. This is a typical pattern for us, one that has repeated many times. That does not mean it has to make sense to any of you. But if you are truly astute, you will read between the lines to try and understand what it is that she truly wants - it is not to fight or get D. She does want it to work as I do, but anger, ego, whatever you want to call it keeps getting in the way.
That is why I keep in the fight, keep pressing forward, why I CAN see a dim light at the end of the tunnel. We have agreement on where we both want to be. Getting there is the hard part and it is NOT all me. Sometimes ONE person can make the relationship get stuck. I got the wheels unstuck this weekend. I will try to keep things moving until we get stuck again, which is inevitable.
One other thing, you all have WAY over interpreted what went on with D13's angry comments.
Even though you know it, Im gonna say it again. Im 'on your side', I appreciate how incredible challenging what you want to accomplish is, and how far you have come in the past year or so... however
Cally is not an 'idiot'. She... and the rest of the ladies have a emotional reaction to the way you present things. Their 'feelings' in reaction to how you come across are not wrong. Not very empathatic, but they're not men.
When you have a bunch of women reacting the same way.... pay attention... good or bad.
Give credence to what they say. Reading thru you last thread, going thru the back and forth arguing and disagreements I found myself nodding in agreement with you AND the ladies. LIL, has been 'on your side' for a long time. Listen. REread. Mrs.Nop is trying to show you a HEALTHY middle ground. Thats why you educated yourself so much right? To be the healthy one?
Personally I think that there is a lot more emotion...'love'...between you and your W then either of you are willing to admit. <shhhh> So keep up doing what you are doing. BE yourself, do what you think needs to be done, your way. BUT LOSE THE FRIGGIN NEGATIVITY. Sheesh.
STOP attacking her with the intention of damaging her. I didnt say stop pushing her. Your gonna fail, but really work on this. When you attack her with the thought of giving her some of her own medicine, it makes you appear WEAK in her eyes, because what she has done has had an effect on you. When she does attack you, you can stop her by being strong, forceful, even loud. (we both know I dont mean physically..<sigh>) But do not attack in return. She wins when you do that. Please dont try to explain why its necessary, or tell me I dont understand.
What I do commend you on is not backing down, and not placating. Your W is gaining respect for you because of that. If you can lose the return assaults she can start to feel some love. Think of it like this.... When you play fight (or spar) with a kid, they can wail at you with all their strength, because you are in fact--- impervious. Your strong, dominant. They can get the occasional shot in (a nose, or your family jewels) but you can see that coming, and stop it, thru a warning, that it is unacceptable. You dont haul off and spin kick them across the room, if they manage to get you.
Since you know this the baby steps forward is a pattern, know that another conflict is coming. Ther are going to be lots. You get intimate, then there is a fight. She has to do this. Again I think your behaviors are mostly the right ones, but some of your details... bleh.
I know I should not engage in the name calling,
PERIOD. End of sentence.
but I do believe it is essential that I stand up to her YES. Lose the but.
to the point that she feels enough pressure to confront our issues. I dont agree with this. Standing up to her, is your issue to work on. How you stand up to her is also your issue to work on. It will still have the same outcome, but your focus will be in the proper place. On You. It will also feel entirely different to her. Does that make sense? You can do the exact same thing, but intent changes the feeling. Philanthropy can 'feel' like supplicating, if done with the wrong intent/ for the wrong reason.
She mentioned her previous requests that I turn over joint ownership of the van and the down payment money for the house, but that I have not done so meant I was the one not cooperating I like that your not placating her with this. That being said, If its your only car, do the joint, as long as her car is joint too. If you have a car and she has a car, then do the van joint... seriously if it comes to a D, its not gonna make one iota of difference. Lastly, she has validity to her opinion that you see the glass half empty.
I have to admit, I'm having a tough time reading/responding to your posts. They sound so full of venom to me. I don't mean that as an attack towards you either, that is just truly how they come across to me when I read them....when talking about your W, or responding back to those of us females on here who give you our honest responses....I get this feeling of being dismissed by you or of "you don't know what you are talking about." Well...perhaps we don't know what we are talking about, because we can only go off of what you give us and our impressions, but don't dismiss so many women reacting in a similar manner....those are honest reactions you truly ought to pay attention to.
I feel that you just simply dismiss us and our opinions....and well, the way you DO come across to many of us on here....is very likely how you also come across at home, and the way you come across is arrogant and condescending. Kind of in a "how dare we question your approach" attitude. Well...we dare to question it, because you are here, you are an intelligent person....and YOU have asked for feedback.
I can understand you may not like the feedback you receive...but you make me (just one person on this BB) feel like..."why bother responding? He's only going to shoot me down anyway...or dismiss what I say, because he knows it all so much better than we do." Yet you are here anyway.
I feel you think you are justified in treating your W the way you are, with disrespect, anger, and disdain. Well, IMPO no one is justified in treating any human being in that manner, I don't care how the other person behaves. Your W is also not justified in her behavior towards you and your children (don't want you thinking I'm excusing her either.) You've recently explained how she CAN behave when you show her some morsel of kindness and respect. She listened, you two talked....you even had some closeness (to a degree). So why not nurture that kindness?
Honestly Cobra....just from your posts (and obviously I don't know the absolute reality of your home-life) I feel like you PUSH, PUSH, PUSH at your W. You find flaws with her, tell her how she needs to improve, and PUSH, PUSH, PUSH some more. I've got to tell you, I'm a pretty even tempered woman....and that behavior would make me snap too, I know with that constant pressure I'd loose my temper as well. Once again, just going off of your posts...but I can't help but feel your W constantly feels she's walking on egg shells around you, because in your eyes....she can't do anything right (she doesn't keep the house clean enough, she's not a good mom, she spends too much time at work.....). Not a fun way to live, for either of you. Could you try complimenting her? Could you try giving her some "Atta Girls" every now and then? They go a long way.
This past month my H has gotten into this routine of acknowledging something I did, but then pointing out what I did wrong in the process as well (giving a compliment, but at the same time taking it back)....THAT is really wearing on me. So, this past weekend while doing some painting outside....he approached me with some brushes and said "this is what they should look like when you're done." Now, he was just trying to joke with me, but I'd had enough...and well, I think I gave him a "go to hell" look (I'm sure you are familiar with those). He looked at me surprised and said "what?" I responded by saying, "you know....just once I'd like to hear "you did a great job babe!" without you pointing out what I did wrong." His response to that was "well you did do a great job!" and I explained..."it'd be nice to hear that once in awhile without you taking the compliment back by pointing out what I did wrong in the process." I honestly feel Cobra, you don't give her enough affirmations...I can't escape the feeling she's lacking that. I know when I start feeling picked on by my H in that manner...resentment/anger creep in and well, while I don't excuse/condone your W's behaviors I can see where some simple kindnesses from you definitely wouldn't hurt the situation....we all want to feel valued by the person we are with, I'm pretty sure neither of you feel valued at all. I feel though even as I write this that you will come up with an excuse/reason that this won't help. Plain and simple....kindness NEVER hurts.
Sometimes we don't feel like being kind, I understand that...but that's when you have to persevere and walk through that fire continuing to model a behavior....and force yourself to look for the good things in that other person. I just simply can't imagine that your W is always this horrible shrew (and that's how you portray her). She must have some redeeming qualities, somewhere.....yet you never mention anything at all good about her, isn't there ANYTHING you admire about her? Anything at all?
BTW...what I'm telling you doesn't mean you have to back down from your W at all. I understand not wanting to give up the ground that you gain. I just feel you need to try to change your attitude towards your W and add some kindness towards her...I feel that will get you further than your current approach. That doesn't mean you have to be a doormat either, you can still stand up to her when she's out of line etc...you don't have to take her crap when she tries to dole it out. When she's being reasonable though, or not being completely unreasonable...try adding in kindness, try adding in some "Atta Girls" or "Great Jobs" or "I really like how you..." What could it hurt?
Sorry about all my typing errors. It was a long day for me yesterday.lol
Just what I expected an angry come back. Very interesting. Also very interesting you seem to have gotten so angry about the sex and her being tired part. Justifying it by saying she was up much later. What is very interesting is the one thing you didn't mention is and it happens to be my main point is that you accused your wife of some horrible actions of child abuse. The only thing on your mind was jabbing at her some more about where she is at fault. Pointing out all your insecurities to her about her working and getting independent to prepare in case she is left to be a single mom. And then asking for sex yet again from a woman you claim to not love, not even physically attracted to, nor do you respect. It's a wonder you can even keep an erection with someone you claim to loathe so much.
During all this though and again the thing I knew you wouldn't address is the issue about your daughter. How you claim you are the loving father. You have to stay married because your poor children will be abused so badly. You have to stick up for them. You have to push her so she knows when her behavior is bad and that you won't tolerate it. But yet for an entire weekend your daughter wasn't even important enough for you to discuss this or set any kind of boundary in case this happened again. But wait you just mentioned WE are blowing this out of proportion. Hmmmm I guess you need to reread your original post on that and see just how you wanted us to know and get the feeling for what a horrible monster you were dealing with. Seems like I touched on some things to have angered you. I am not even the mother of your children nor your wife but I got called an idiot. Yeah I can see where your wife has grievances about you that are valid.
Seems weird you throw those things out there to get everyone back on the bashing your wife and stop pointing any finger on you. Then a finger gets pointed to you to say hey what happened to standing up for your daughter. Then you say oh we are blowing it out of proportion. I can't help it I think you are telling untruths. I could be wrong because I am not always right. But this is my gut feeling.
If I do not push in this way, months pass by without any progress. It may seem logical that if no issues come up and we can get along peacefully then we should be able to get closer. But I have never experienced this to happen. In fact, it seems she usually starts to slack off on her responsibilities, slowing backing out of sex, focusing more on herself and the kids, going back to her old comfortable ways. She will also slowly start to push her boundaries to the point that she slowly encroaches in her imposition on myself and the kids.
The source of her OCD is largely found here in this paragrapgh. She needs boundaries. Without them she is adrift. She is full of fear and vulnerability, and has walls up to hide that. Walls are not the same as boundaries, because they use anger, and withdrawal and various other negatives, to self protect. Its not logical to you, because you make sure not to encroach on OP's, by being withdrawn all the time. I understand. Do you see how it actually is logical, that you have to stay in there and say 'Do this' 'Do that' from the standpoint that she needs a man with strong, decisive plans and boundaries? She knows where you stand with that. Your not withdrawn. Your showing her your real self.
GEL
This is in direct opposition to how I was raised, which is a Japanese approach. I was taught people should focus on the feelings and impressions of others first and then yourself. My W seems to practice the idea that each person should protect his/her own boundaries and if no one says anything to you, any encroachment you may do, whether intentional or not, is their fault not yours.
For years and years, Cobra has tried to be nice and not asserted himself at all. He looked to himself and his own needs and backed down whenever his W asserted herself or disagreed. He is full of resentment, anger and emotional revenge. I know you can relate to revenge. He needs to get a grip on it, but his comprehension of what kindness means (not placating, not a door mat) skipped right past to what did work effectively even on a small scale to give him a smidge of power.
Everyone abuses new found power. Women included. I think he can find the middle ground. If his W wasnt feeling some respect for him, she wouldnt be fighting with him, or ML. She doesnt want a D, she doesnt know what to do. When he shows her with some healthy behavior, she will ....s l o w l y follow.
You've recently explained how she CAN behave when you show her some morsel of kindness and respect. She listened, you two talked....you even had some closeness (to a degree)
I think this came about because Cobra was strong and assertive during the conflict, and then afterwards showed with his actions that he loved/cared for her nonetheless. Her amazement at his 'being nice' says too me, that she knew she was out of line in the fight on several levels too. Probably cause she was 'not nice' when she messed with his car and left it open.
but then pointing out what I did wrong in the process as well (giving a compliment, but at the same time taking it back)....
This is typically how men communicate. After the game everyone sits around and watches the video, and tears apart what they did wrong, even if they WON. Yeaaa we won. hooray for us. Now lets look at what could be done better next time.
Why is doing a good job such a big deal? Shouldnt that just be ...like.... expected? He could not give a compliment at all and just focus on what was 'lacking'.
Schnarch would NOT be impressed. This is why I don't post much to you Cobra. I get enough of this kind of crap at home, I don't need it here nor does Cally I'm sure. My POV differs significantly from yours so I know that if I post and push my point as hard as you do for instance, this is the kind of response I would get from you. I would think part of what makes this board so valuable is seeing other people's POV, even when you don't like it.
Like many others have said, you're dedicated and loyal to your purpose and I admire that. But my friend, you have got to see the error in your ways, so drop the defenses and the rude attitude, and have a listen.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I hear you, buddy. I do. Now... just to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, please... did you find any merit in the last post I made? Any at all? If so... tell me what it was... I'd really like to hear it from you. If you don't mind.
If not... then tell me... but if you wouldn't mind, tell me in a maybe humorous, gentle way. You don't have to, mind you... your choice. But I would appreciate it.
BF:
Quote: This is typically how men communicate.
Understood. We women get that loud and clear. This is NOT how women communicate, however. We don't need heaps and heaps of compliments, or they do not ring true. But a well-timed compliment that is deserved... and left to stand on its OWN... will come back to you 10-fold.
Quote: After the game everyone sits around and watches the video, and tears apart what they did wrong, even if they WON. Yeaaa we won. hooray for us. Now lets look at what could be done better next time.
Guess you've never been in a woman's locker room after a game. Most women have not been in the men's locker room after a game, either.
You say you like it when girls are 'women,' but what it sounds like you are expecting here is for women to 'act' like men when it comes to communicating...
Quote: Why is doing a good job such a big deal?
Does there really need to be a reason YOU find valid? The fact that it has now been stated, in a respectful manner, I would think is enough to give it credence and its due respect.
Quote: Shouldnt that just be ...like.... expected?
No.
Quote: He could not give a compliment at all and just focus on what was 'lacking'.
Depends on what you want to get out of the situation. A woman who is bristling, and ready to leave you with finishing the paint job yourself... or a woman who is ready to climb the ladder again.
Doesn't mean you can't review how things could be better. Women typically respond better to this type of thing when there is noticable space between the compliment, and 'let's see how we can improve' discussion.
Let me lay this out straight so everyone can understand. My W has some very good qualities – she is energetic, full of life, extroverted, likes to dance, enjoys sports, is very concerned for the kids and their education. All of these are some of the good qualities that make staying in the marriage valuable. But on her negative side are the severe dysfunction she suffered as a child, the overwhelming fears and need to control as much as she possibly can, the mood swings that have been controlled with medication, the lashing out like a cornered animal when she feels threatened.
This is NOT a normal situation like what all of you are dealing with. As I said before, there are only a few people here with a spouse that seems familiar to my W – Hairdog and V/Z-Bube.
I have fought a long battle to get to the point that W recognizes that her actions can result in consequences. She NEVER had this sort of discipline. NO ONE ever told her what to do or held her to a set of rules. So the idea that she cannot tread on others is foreign to her, and whenever she did in the past, the other person backed down. Why? Because they had no commitment to standing up to her. I do. And I realized several years ago that she had no understanding of this concept or the fact that consequences and boundaries are ultimately backed up by power. That is one clear lesson she learned this year when she went to jail. The law will enforce raw power.
Now once we got that point clearly established, we have been able to move forward. It has been in fits and starts as she backtracks and bucks the control she feels from me and others. Not only has she had to give ground with me, but she has had to give some ground with the kids as they have matured and pressed to do more things on their own. This has been scary for her. She has learned to give ground at her work too. She does not run the school and has had to negotiate with her peers and supervisor. Al in all, this has helped to balance her, but she still bucks from time to time.
Whether anyone here agrees or not, I MUST stand up to this and hold a hard line on these concepts. She MUST know that if she crosses the line there will be swift and severe consequence, and that those actions can and will be backed by the use of force if necessary, either mine or that or the police. As she has come to accept this and cooperate in the marriage, I have tried to show a complete opposite side of myself. That is why she and the counselor asked a while back what had changed in me. I told them it was a change in her.
I see very little difference in my approach to how you would handle a wild, abused and dangerous dog. The initial phase of the recovery requires pure power, to set the ground rules for respect and appropriate action. From there, the more subtle, emotional teachings can begin, which is what the dog really wants. Dogs want to be accepted and loved, just as people do.
Think of it this way, if I had NOT stood up and established these very hard lines, if I had stayed non-reactive, what would she see when she was on a rage? If she does not understand other people’s boundaries or the limits of her control, how does she know when to stop? How does she even know she has crossed a line? Simply telling her does not work for those are only words and she does not understand the meaning. She needed to FEEL the boundary, to FEEL when she pushed over the line and went too far.
No she has a good understanding of this and when she acts respectfully, I act respectfully too. When she crosses the line, I react strongly to let her know not to even think about going there. What she wants is love and acceptance. I have ALWAYS known this and have stated it here long ago. What she has a problem with is acknowledging this need within her and then accepting it when she gets it. So I show her a strong contrast between warm, caring, cooperative behavior versus battle mode. She can now see the line clearly. Before she never knew a line existed, much less where it was.
Since early this year we have been transitioning from the establishment of power boundaries to the higher levels of respect. Everything moves in waves and I know we both backslide. When we do, I am upset and angry with her and myself. I don’t like being in that pit, but I am there whether I like it or not. The reconciliations, the sex, act like a bonding ritual of sort and reaffirm to BOTH of us that we are hearing each other and trying to give the acceptance we both want. It is a very basic foundation on which all the higher the levels of love are built.
Think back to the wild dog analogy. The dog acts out. It is disciplined. Then it is given love and affection. Slowly it learns to act in the way to get what it wants. Same thing with W. Think about Hairdog or V/Z-Bube’s wife. The same lesson needs to be applied there, IMO. Those women also lack the most basic levels of respect for power and boundaries. From what I have read, they do not think they need to respect the power of their H because up to now, they have not had to. And as long as they cannot see the need to stop crossing the line, or someone makes them stop crossing the line, they will keep crossing the line. Asking them to not do so will not work. Asking the wild to dog to be nice will not work. Discipline cannot be imposed through love, only through power.
Now, as for my daughter. She displays a LOT of the tendencies of W in that she gets angry easily, wears her emotions on her sleeve, vents fully and says what is on her mind. The good this is that she does this, so that afterward she has released everything. What she wants is exactly what W wants, to feel accepted and loved and safe from the chaos of the fighting. I am trying to discipline D13 with the disadvantage of her seeing how her parents fight on the power level rather than the negotiation level. She does understand the difference, but her anger and resentment take over at times. This is natural. It is not healthy and is a cause for concern, but it is natural.
The reason I brought up the issue with D13 in the first place is to show what I am dealing with. I note that many people found W’s actions to be abusive to the point that I should put on a restraining order and file for D. I am sure my description of events raised a lot of emotion in readers. So think what kind of emotion this incident raised in me. Couple that with the FACT that my chances of getting custody as still slim to none. That is the hard, very frustrating reality facing many dads. I understand the reaction of everyone toward the kids, but that reaction was still out of proportion.
Blackfoot,
As I type this I see your latest comments on OCD. I have spoken with a few people about OCD this past week and they tell me there is little that can be done to resolve the underlying fears in an effective manner without medication. She is on meds now and I think they do help, though I think at many times her dosage is too low. She has this set to minimize the effects on her mental clarity for “normal” times. It is the higher stress times that seem to completely overwhelm this medication level.
I am hoping our C can help with this, though I do not know yet if W will go back to see her. My suspicion is that W’s refusal to go back is just another ploy to pull control back her way. We will see.
Then the daughter says it to. Pouring water on a child. 
<shhhh>
Sorry about all my typing errors. 