Thanks for the support. I do believe than things happen in life for a reason, or at least we draw things toward us to then happen, however it may work. I do know that years ago I had been hurt very badly by the breakup with my old college girlfriend. I wanted to marry her, but we were but young and stupid, and my passivity let that opportunity pass me by. So when I met W, I had been dating around for several years, just having fun, enjoying the single life, starting a career and having a little money for a change.
I had dated several other women up to that time, so why W is the one that ended up pregnant rather than some of the others could be due to my karma. I don’t know. I do know that I had a lot to learn and overcome at that time, and a happier, more peaceful marriage may not have provided the environment to push out of the heavy FOO issues I had. So in that way, I did choose her and she chose me.
I do hear what Lil and GEL are saying and I appreciate their concern and advice. I have tried to do much of what they say and I will continue to do so again. I am not particularly angry or upset right now, I am not anxious or worried. This latest incident is a just another in the long string of such problems and does not even rank that high on the scale. This weekend, maybe tonight, we will talk, explain our positions, express our feelings and frustrations and come to some understanding to keep moving on.
Life will revert to normal, the stress of starting school will diminish, the house will get cleaned and we will wait for the next crisis to pop up. There are plenty of issues out there for us to address, some much bigger than the current matter over S9’s ear ache and going to TKD. This is just the latest step back before we regroup to take two steps forward.
I have been a long time student of the stock market and believe strongly in the value of technical analysis. This includes watching cycles, chart patterns and wave counts. Elliott Wave theory holds that advances travel in 5 waves: From the base starting point, wave 1 breaks out of resistance, but with limited enthusiasm. Wave two falls back, retracing much if not all of wave 1, but forms a solid base, testing the support of the original starting point. Wave 3 is usually the strongest was, as it breaks above the top of wave 1, short covering kicks in, panic buying starts, and heavy volume occurs. The real power of bull markets is seen here. Wave 4 retraces 3, but hold above the high of wave 1, alternating of form and complexity with the corrective wave 2. Wave 5 is the final push as the latecomers jump in, including those who did not “believe” and finally capitulate and buy. Then the full 5 wave pattern completes and is counted as a larger degree wave 1. The corresponding scaled wave 2 retraces this larger wave 1. (Corri, what I describe is a fractal pattern in asset prices.)
Each wave has a distinct psychological signature to it since mass psychology is what ultimately drives the buying and selling. I believe my wife and I are in the base building stage. We have lived through the worst, which was wave two, where fear is highest that prices (or our marriage) will fall through the previous support, into a black hole. We have confronted and accepted the prospect of divorce. I don’t think it particularly scares either of us, but we both know we don’t really want it. We see some good times behind us that marked the peak of a previous wave 1 and I think we would both like to get back to that level. We have both done a lot of work, building the foundation for future progress. I remain optimistic (in spite of my anger and complaining) that our wave 3 is still in front of us. Time will tell.
About your W getting PG and not any of the other girls and karms, who knows. I just read the statistics and see that some girlfriends get knocked up no matter how careful you thought you were.
Elliott Wave theory Sounds interesting cobra. I just finished The Motley Fool Investment Guide by Tom & David Gardner, ISBN: 0743201736. Mostly basic long term investing.
I hope your version of "Wave Theory" works for you. you have the wave part right. R's are up and down all of the time.
Hang in there Cobra. I am pulling for you and your M.
So Cobra your wife is a "special case" your marriage is a "special case".
Listen to GEL you know what a wonderful spouse-whisperer she is. I would love to hear more from GEL about how she deals with her H's filters. My H has exactly these filters, he instantly sees an alternate POV as an attack. Gel some sample convos would be great!
I don't hear compassion you need to add compassion. My H and also my sister have similarities to your W, they terretorialise certain areas and defend them the way a dog would. They act mean when they are stressed or overwhelmed. The one time I got past my sister's meanness was a time when her youngest was just 2, she had just got divorced but been separated since before he was born. The boys were about to go on their first trip away with their dad. I bumped into her at the supermarket and she was supercilious and rude to me, I was taken aback, I'd done nothing to deserve it. Suddenly the light-bulb went off in my head and I reached over and touched her arm and said "you're really stressed out about the kids going away, aren't you?" She melted instantly and we had a long heart to heart about it. The problem with this type of mean behaviour is it is incongruous with the vulnerability the person feels inside - it gives off the wrong message to other people. They really want to say "I feel terrible and I need a hug" but instead they say "Don't come near me or I might bite". Even though I know this now I still find it incredibly difficult to translate. I have managed to do so more often with my S7 (another one in the same mould) but it is easier to have compassion for your kids.
1) Practise staying alpha: calm, solid, rock-like this does not mean giving way, it means staying on message and not being deflected by her antics. 2) Show compassion, try to translate her meanness. You already know why she behaves this way, try reacting as though she had said "please help me Cobra" 3) Please stay away from involving the kids in your battles, it's parenting 101 4) Catch her doing things right, however small and give her some positive feedback.
Woo her Cobra, that is what you entitled this thread. Try smiling and saying she looks great. Try buying her the odd little gift "just because". Try telling her she is a great mother, not an over-controlling over-anxious one. People really do live up to our expectations, your expectations of your W appear to be incredibly low, and from what you have said about how you two wound up married I would say they probably always have been. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You said that she had the following greivances I am “high maintenance” - the response to that is yes I am and so are you. I'm prepared to put in the work please do the same for me. • She is too busy trying to keep up with her new class we're all busy, she has to decide what she will drop to make up for it and you have to draw a line in the sand about what she WON'T be dropping • She is ADD and has problems organizing and that takes much of her time with her class. You have said she messes up the house with her stuff. Confine her stuff to one area that you both agree upon, and leave her to be as messy as she likes. If stuff creeps back out of that area, throw it back in - warn her that this is going to be your approach, so she knows that she only has herself to blame if it is all in random heap. Other than that make no further comment about it. She is not "morally reprehensible" because she finds it difficult to be organised. • She thinks I believe I know everything regarding relationships and she does not like to be told what’s wrong with her. No she doesn't, and nor do you. Stop it
take care
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
You know I also agree that statement is awful. ( about the pregnancy) In life we all have choices. Our life is what me make of it.
Another thing is I am a woman and I know it would hurt terribly if my husband felt the way about me that you feel about your wife. Like saying she was not the most attractive person. You must find her attractive if you are always after her and feel entitled to sex. Unless for you there doesn't have to be attraction just a warm body. I guess what I am trying to say I am sure she can feel what you think of her. What would make her want to change for you? The pattern may stay the same because she knows deep down you hate everything about her. Here is another thing she may be thinking...her young days as a woman are now. Whast happens when she is much older and the kid's are grown? Expecially if she knows you feel only the kid's hold you together. I mean honestly look at your sitch closely and think about this....what is it about you that would make her want to be a better wife to you?
Curious to as you seem like sometimes you can be very insecure....what if she felt you were not attractive? What if that was the reason that she is not that into sex? Would it hurt you at all?
Try to think about things from her perspective and how she may be feeling.
I mean geez Cobra... when I read what you wrote about your wife... well... geez. How mean and hurtful! My H would try that statement and I didn't let him get away with it. He was simply full of cr*p!
I guess what I want to know is... do you LOVE your wife? Does she love you? Or are you both planning on bailing as soon as the kids are grown?
And if that is your plans... don't you think your kids can feel that? They might not know the specifics but they can feel the division! And do you really think growing up in that kind of energy is good?? (From personal experience I can tell you it's not... the old FOO, don't you know.)
So the 'staying together for the kids' is not valid. It's stupid and hurtful and so emotionally damaging to everyone involved.
And like Cally said... if what you wrote is really how you feel about your wife then it is going to come through in actions, words, attitude and just plain old vibes! And consequently; why would she even care how you feel about anything?
I empathyize with your right to stand up for yourself... to not be beat up on continuely... but you have to ask yourself, is your apparent derision for her causing her to attack you?
For those familiar with my sitch, I’ve made no illusions that the initial newly wed love is missing from our marriage. It was never there to begin with. Neither of us can look back to a time when we were totally infatuated and in love with each other. It just never occurred. So my statement may seem cruel to those of you who have experienced such love. To me, there is nothing cruel about it. It is a simple statement of fact. She has reiterated the exact words in counseling as well. This is just one of the many issues we struggle with. There is no solid foundation to give the memories and longings to return to some time in the past.
We have the kids and for the most part, staying together has been in their best interest. There are times when the decision to stay or D seems to be 50/50. But those times come and go. One thing I do know, as Hairdog as stated many times, a D can be very damaging and once you go there, you cannot reverse it. Even if we were to D and remarry, the damage has been done.
With that said, the weekend went about as I expected. Saturday I woke up listening to her bark some orders to the kids, made a comment back to her but things settled down. She was stressed over the messy house and all her school work, so I asked her what she needed help on, and started to clean the kitchen, help with the clothes, etc. The kids cleaned their rooms. W started to pick up her stuff scattered everywhere. I helped her with some of her school materials. This helped to calm her down and by the afternoon she was in a decent mood.
Later in the day I asked when we would have sex. She said she could have anyone calling her a b*tch. I said fine, I can’t have anyone attacking my intentions as a father. That was all that was said about that. She did say we could have sex. Saturday school work went late, and as I was still trying to get over my cold, we just went to bed.
The cleaning went into Sunday. I did the usual shopping, helped more with her stuff, and latter that evening we did have sex. She seemed to be in a decent mood. I asked if we could do it again on Monday, but things ran late on Monday and I just let it pass. Last night was TKD night, and after the kids got to bed, she actually came into the bedroom to say that she had agreed to have sex again and would I like to do it. Though she was a little irritated with the kids over getting homework finished, picking up their stuff, going to bed, etc., she was still able to drop it and was in a good mood for sex, though it was something of a quickie.
So there you have it. She does not like my fighting back with her or pushing my “control” but she does seem to understand on some level that she brings a lot of this on herself. I do not accept responsibility for her faults and do not fully apologize for the arguments we get into. I apologize for my actions, calling her names, etc., but I do not even attempt to apologize for her getting me angry. If she doesn’t want me mad, she can do her part to keep her actions and words within reason.
She would like me to say I will always be calm and controlled, never raise my voice, never get angry. I am not at a level that I can do that. Nor do I believe she is at a level that she can respond to that. Her self control has improved over the years and it slowly gets better (the medication helps). But I do not believe she is the type of person who can control and discipline herself if there are no boundaries, limits, or consequences put on her.
Part of what I originally got mad at her about last week was her backsliding on issues with the kids we had already worked on. So I told her at the time to back off and stop trying to control and intimidate everyone. Without a certain force holding her in line, her natural tendency is to push. I believe she cannot really help it, or that she knows she is doing it. So I occasionally have to push back.
So, for the moment, I think we are back on a decent footing.
I've waited to post a response to you so I could think about some of the things you've stated.
IMHO Your M has NEVER had a leg to stand on as far as having a chance at being a good/loving/stable one. I don't mean that as a slam either...it's just an honest opinion. You two didn't go into this M with love as a very basic foundation from the get-go, and well...we're far from the days of arranged marriages (when many people did have A's). You, at the very least (since I don't know her side) went into this with resentments about the marriage from the beginning....and that is definitely not a good foundation to build something loving/lasting on...you still hold those resentments, perhaps have formed new ones too. No telling where your W stands exactly...but probably in a similar position.
Sure, you can build some mutually loving "family" moments....but those aren't "intimate" moments between just you two. It seems to me that you two never truly wanted to be together as a couple...and only married due to the pregnancy...so honestly there has never been any true intimacy between the two of you, not from the beginning of your M. Perhaps there was some when you two initially met....but then you separated etc....it just seems to me that has never been there from the beginning of your M.
So...I guess my question to you is, what are you hoping to accomplish NOW? You appear to hold your W in a view of resentment and disdain...at least that's how it comes across on here quite a bit of the time...at least to me when I read your posts. Do you have ANY loving feelings towards her at all that aren't related to the children? If not, WOW, I hate to say this....I don't see you accomplishing your goals (whatever they are, I'm still not quite clear on that.) You could probably increase the times you two have "sex" but that will just be a physical thing...it won't have anything to do with intimacy....and I don't think it will increase the quality of your M.
As others have said...she's bound to pick up on your true feelings...whether you state them or not. People simply pick up on vibes if nothing else...there's a tension that comes with resentment that's so easy to pick up on. It's body language, it's looks, it's tone of voice, it's word-choice...resentment comes out in so many forms. I know that I would be very unlikely to be very cooperative with someone that I felt was viewing me in the light you appear to view your W in. It would give me no motivation to work with that person. Add to that the issue of that person trying to get me to address things that I don't want to address (like you trying to get your W to address her FOO issues)....well, you'd meet a stone wall. I guess you could say that internally I'd be saying to that person "You obviously don't like me....why should I change for someone who doesn't even like me? F.U.!" It seems to me that she does the same thing to you too though. It's just not a suprise to me Cobra that you two are going round and round. Without respect for one another there is no trust, without trust....there is no intimacy.
I wish I had something more helpful to say, this is just my observation of your sitch with your last few revelations.
BTW...I just read your last post, and you just reiterated much of what I just wrote, so....nevermind.
GEL
I agree with everything you say. Yes, we have a lack of trust because of a lack of respect. While I know she picks up on my vibes, in exactly the way you describe, I also pick up on hers. For example, I have long suspected that she was spending money as much as she could, while she had the chance, knowing that eventually she was going to leave, and better to milk the gravy train while she could. Not long ago she admitted to this very thing in counseling.
So my shutting down the joint checking account and severing all joint credit cards makes sense (at least to me). Now she has her money, I have mine, and we do not argue over finances any more (which used to be a HUGE issue, as you can imagine). Her going to work is setting in place new boundaries that are actually beneficial for us, FORCING us each to maintain certain levels of respect toward each other, FOR OUR OWN SAKE. In other words, as we each become more independent, we come to realize (or at least she is now realizing) that cooperation is a self serving process.
Before she felt no reward as a SAHM, especially a feminist SAHM. Now with a career, she sees value in cooperation and marriage, not just in raising the kids, but in her own ability to put in more hours at work, to focus on her school materials, draft lesson plans, etc., time that she would otherwise have to share with maintaining a home, even if just for herself.
This is where the foundation of our marriage can take hold. Not on love, but on common need and a certain acceptance that it may be easier to stay together than get divorced. I have known this, but she could never see it. She was always feeling trapped (much by her own fears over the kids) and longing to get out. I do not think she ever appreciated my contributions to the marriage and the family, so I brought little value to the relationship, so why should she respect me. In turn, I sensed that she only used me as a work horse.
Now, I think the lesson we are learning is mutual respect based on need and an acceptance that life can be easier together, rather than apart, as long as we can both agree to certain rules and division of labor. This may not be the fairy tale love. But I do think we can grow to care for each other and I think we can have a decent marriage. Maybe this isn’t for everyone, but its what we have to work with.
Quote: Now, I think the lesson we are learning is mutual respect based on need and an acceptance that life can be easier together, rather than apart, as long as we can both agree to certain rules and division of labor. This may not be the fairy tale love. But I do think we can grow to care for each other and I think we can have a decent marriage. Maybe this isn’t for everyone, but its what we have to work with.
You can probably work with this, and I agree that the foundation must be mutual respect. If you don't respect each other (and it sounds like you don't), then you have to ACT like you respect each other. That means no name-calling, no huge displays of temper... IOW behave as politely and civilly with each other as you would if you were two total strangers who happened to live in the same house. Don't tell me you "aren't there yet." GET THERE. This is your work right here, right now. No matter how you feel about her and the stuff she does, you can control your behavior. You can't control hers, only yours.
Well, I certainly think everyone has the lay of the land now.
Given what you have described, in the scenario of how you have described it... I think I may be able to see where the 'rub' is.
Most people who come to this particular BB are not merely interested in upping the frequency, per se, but upping the intimacy. It is very clear to me why your M is sex starved... and really, to me, the only person who is benefitting from constructing the R as you have indicated, is you. That is not a put down, btw, and I don't mean it as such. But what I would do is to make absolutely certain your W understands the M in terms of business, and leave all R talk out of it. It has absolutely NO PLACE in your M, and is only confusing the issue... especially for her.
If you want a harmonious setting between the two of you, I would give yourselves separate bedrooms... it will help her stress levels a great deal (if you are not already separate). I would discuss with her a sexaul encounter agreement, and perhaps see if she would like something in exchange for her efforts. In that sense, it will keep OUT any confusing notion that sex between you may be something other than what it is, when it is, in fact, not. This will help her a great deal in containing her emotions, and it will give her an avenue of thinking... whether she thinks she can do this for you or not.
The longing that you both have for intimacy will never fade, and in this scenario, both of you will, I doubt seriously, ever be truly 'happy.' But if getting your kids raised, together, in a harmonious household is the goal, you are going to have to drop all facade that your M is something more than what it is... and stop trying to pursue making it into something other than what it is. I think this is where most of the illusion is entering the picture.
If you both can accept this, then I agree with Lil, I think you will be surpised at just how civil you CAN be to one another.
I really, honestly think that your problems are coming in because you somehow both think you have an R. You don't. You just live in the same house and have the same children. Quit treating it and expecting anything more from it, and I think you will see your power issues begin to dissolve.
If your W does not want to continue sexual relations with you, I can understand that... but you may want to suggest that you discreetely get your needs met elsewhere. If this notion goes against your ideas of matrimony, or hers... under this scenario that you have described, I seriously, seriously doubt you will ever solve your power struggle.
In that regard, then, you might be able to think through if staying in the M IS actually worth it. The intimacy that is absent between you and your W is going to rob your children of any emotional IQ. They have to learn it somewhere. I realize you are doing the best you can in this situation, but I personally don't feel that that is providing your kids with the best you can give in some other context.
I know you don't trust your wife, but she might BE a better mother away from such an atmosphere... just as you, I'm sure, would be a better dad.
This is just my opinion, obviously. But again, if you are going to set up a business agreement, you both really should treat it as such. I think the illusion of it being something other than what it isn't is what is causing you the biggest problem.
This, btw, is exactly why I got out of my M. Not projecting onto you, okay? Not saying what was good for me would be best for you. Just another way of looking at things.
( about the pregnancy) In life we all have choices. Our life is what me make of it.