I am bouncing around to muddle, mine and SS's threads touching on this same subject of validation through action, or choices we make. I really think this is a 180 I made VERY early on and really didn't understand what it was.
I knew that my W and I often had a TERRIBLE time working together on projects like cleaning out the garage or even making dinner. When I first started DBing, one of the things I decided I didn't want to do was argue anymore over little things so I started just doing things her way when there was no real reason why not. Most of the time, I actually learned something, or if not, I was not unhappy like I used to be to be doing things differently than I thought they should be done. All of a sudden, our interaction got better REAL quick in terms of working together around the house. She started to be MUCH less nagging and actually started to defer to me more on things that I probably knew more about. It was amazing. Of course only now can I see how I was now validating her via my choices & actions.
Damn, if I only knew then... (maybe I would have gotten a handj** a long time ago, lol)
Ok, CM, I hear you but I guess I see it like this. For YEARS now, even before me, my W has subjugated her own desires and her wants for other people, usually her family. She has ALWAYS done that in our life. The boob job thing HAS come up before, long before the affair but money was always the issue. It is not so much now. Please don't think this is a new thing. In any event, the fact that she is FINALLY expressing her desires TO ME, is a good thing in my book considering she never trusted me to even give a damn what she wanted before.
When she finally figured out what she wanted, she got it somewhere else because either she didn't want it from me, or she figured she'd tried to get it and failed. Looking back, I can see how she tried, but it was VERY weak and not nearly the direct approach she is using now.
CM, call me crazy but I actually think it's GREAT that she's opening up to me. In any event, and I want to clarify something which I will put in bold type so it stands out, my W may not work, but her "income" is a large part of our standard of living. That is a topic for another day (her parents) but I don't really want to get into it now, so she doesn't need my "permission" to get something done to herself and a couple months ago, she likely would not have even asked let alone sought some kind of permission.
On the "showing the sexier body" thing to me, her husband, she is TERRIBLY self conscious and doesn't like to wear shorts, let alone "show off" anything to anyone, including me or, according to her, OM during the affair. She never said she didn't want to "share" with me, just that her motivation was not my happiness OR anyone else, it was her desire to feel better about her body.
Is she telling the truth? Who knows. I think so but this, like many other things, is not really something I am hung up on.
GH, I just read your post re: your M history. I think your W is still very angry about feeling abandoned by you earlier as you pushed for your hoped for career. It takes time to change that perspective. I know my W feels I emotionally abandoned her but what she wants from me is really unrealistic to ask of anyone. Certainly part of it is her unrealistic demands on me but it is also my approach that needs work too. So, back to you, maybe in your sitch putting your W first now is the way to go. That would be a big 180. She needs to know that you ARE there this time and plan to stay there. DB can be pretty exciting as we find out new ways of approaching our M's and life in general! No matter how it all turns out I think we will each be better people.
My W goes and hangs with her women friends a couple times a month. They are MARRIED and they hang out at one of their houes and talk about books, drink some wine and do the 'girl stuff'.
They do NOT go out to bars, and there are NO single women. No married woman should go to a bar with single women without her husband. The MEN at those places are there for one reason.
My point is that there are many ways to 'hang out with the girls'. Go out to dinner, movies, book clubs, 'bunko' games.
My opinion on the boob job, going out with friends etc is that GH is making the right choice by not fighting her about it. It sounds like his wife is battling a loss of sense of self, and if your breasts have suffered the ravages of motherhood it really can affect your self-perception. Not as a sexual toy, but as an extension of your womanhood. I can understand wanting this and not because I want men to stare at my chest.
And isolating a woman from her friends because you don't trust her not to cheat on you is a really dangerous idea. In my case, I think it was a sense of isolation that led my H to connect with his OW. Groups of women are not going out seeking attention. We seek to bond with each other. GH is working really hard at being emotionally available to his wife, which is wonderful, but nothing can replace the communication between women. GH can't be everything to her. He can't be her girlfriend.
And for him to be a safe place for her to express these feelings is positive within a marriage.
Frank thanks for the advice but I don't think I ever said my W wanted to go to bars with single women. In fact she wants to go to a resturant and then back to her sister's house with her and another mutual friend. Other than them, all her friends are married with kids too and the most they do is go out to dinner. That's all she wants to do according to her.
My W hates bars and her club days are long over (her words, not mine). I am completely comfortable with where she wants to go and who she wants to go with. In any even, like I said, and this is more agreeing with Anna, if things were "ok" in our marriage then these things would be a non-issue.
Quote: My opinion on the boob job, going out with friends etc is that GH is making the right choice by not fighting her about it. It sounds like his wife is battling a loss of sense of self, and if your breasts have suffered the ravages of motherhood it really can affect your self-perception. Not as a sexual toy, but as an extension of your womanhood. I can understand wanting this and not because I want men to stare at my chest.
This is EXACTLY the approach my W is taking and I understand her feelings. I know how it looks, like she wants new boobs for some OM to play with, but this is a long running desire of my W's, and frankly something I have been less than supportive of (I don't like fake boobs) but when she communicated her extreme dislike of her body in that area and exactly WHAT she wanted to do, I opened up to the idea. This was all a couple years ago but the idea has been shelved because of financial issues since then. Even back then, she was VERY reluctant to talk openly about her feelings. I am glad she is more open now.
Quote: And isolating a woman from her friends because you don't trust her not to cheat on you is a really dangerous idea. In my case, I think it was a sense of isolation that led my H to connect with his OW. Groups of women are not going out seeking attention. We seek to bond with each other. GH is working really hard at being emotionally available to his wife, which is wonderful, but nothing can replace the communication between women. GH can't be everything to her. He can't be her girlfriend.
Again, it's as if you are living in my W's head. I think this is how she feels. She was never one to try to pick up men in social situations (remember, she met OM at the gym, not a bar...not that it's much better) but rather she just liked to be with her friends and have a good time, usually oblivious to any men in the vicinity. This idea that I would isolate her from her friends because of trust issues is a HUGE one because actually she has done that to herself because of her guilt and yes, my behavior. I want that to end, even if it means our R is going to suffer because I KNOW FOR SURE that if she continues like this, isolated and depressed, we will surely regress.
As newly single woman, I object to Frank's characterization of single women hanging out at bars, trolling for men. That's hardly the reality of most single women - not having a man to keep us line does not exactly turn us into wanton harlots. And most of my friends are married, so I most assuredly think it's ok for marrieds and singletons to hang out together. And yes, the "acceptable" way for women to go out is at each other's houses talking books and exclaiming over coffee cake. However, I belong to a book club, with both single and married women, and we meet at a bar. We are all the mothers of young children and we like feeling like our once-a-month excursion isn't simply an evening version of playdates. It feels good going to a place with music and people and cocktails. My old book club was a dull living room affair, and this one is way better. So there we are - gasp - in a bar. None of us (even me, the single one) have ever had any inappropriate (or even appropriate) encounter with a man.
If the only way a woman can be viewed as trustworthy is to sip merlot in one another's toy-strewn living rooms, shoot me now!
Again, agree 100% with you. I think it's all about trust, something that is in short supply in my R right now from EACH of us, but I want to grow what's there and for me, it's another act of letting go. I have spent my entire marriage ACTING like I believe that she should not go out at all, all the while SAYING to her, and myself that I was so open minded and trusting. BS, I was old fashioned and trusted her about as far as the front door... with NO reason. I treated her as if she were a cheater LONG before she ever was and while I place the ultimate responsibility for her actions squarely where it belongs, ON HER, I do know the role I played. I also know the role I now want to play and it's not one that I can play if I am still that insecure, timid man that thought the only way his W would stay with him was if he kept her under wraps. I swear that sounds SO unlike me but honestly, especially from my W's perspective, it's probably closer to the truth than the idea I had of myself all these years.
I for one never intended to be this man I have been all these years and I want to have my actions towards my W reflect the man I always envisioned myself as; confident, trusting, independent, and progressive. I didn't marry a shrinking violet but I think I helped turn her into one...until OM reminded her of who she was. Damn, that SHOULD have been me, and it WILL be me now! I HATE with all my soul what she did and that our marriage came to this but I'll be damned if I am not going to get something positive from it and move forward!
In terms of Frank's idea that married woman have no business with single women or bars, does that also apply to married men hanging out with their single buddies or having a drink with the guys after work? I would bet that this is yet another of the double standards we all just accept as a matter of course.
Quote: As newly single woman, I object to Frank's characterization of single women hanging out at bars, trolling for men.
Good, I would object too if I had said that. But I didn't. I said:
Quote: The MEN at those places are there for one reason.
I did not say women were 'trolling' for men. In fact I used to know lot's of single women who went to bars to hang out, dance together and have fun. And they were annoyed when some men would hit on them.
I was pointing out that MARRIED women should not go to bars with ONLY SINGLE women. Why? Because the MEN there do not differentiate between them. Because single women have a different view of the men they meet in those social situations than a married woman should. And of course I mean a 'married' woman in the context of these boards. Someone who is thinking of LEAVING the marriage.
Quote: not having a man to keep us line...
I see you are still hurt. I do not believe ANY woman needs a man to 'keep her in line'. I'm sorry you were hurt.
GH: I don't know why I thought your W was going out to bars with friends. I'm reading too many threads and getting people confused. I need a vacation.
Regarding the boob job and stuff, I agree with everyone else. My W has the same reasons, want's her body to be more like it was before kids, not trying to be 'young again', just repairing the damages. There is nothing wrong with that as long as she knows you find her attractive either way.
