Quote: I wonder if your H gets extra crappy because you are so naturally resilient.
This is quite possibly the case. I am like a Weeble.
Quote: One of my big difficulties in my M is that I find myself hiding my "enthusiasm" when H does show a little extra affection - I do this for fear of "scaring him off."
I kind of have the same problem but with me it's more like I'm afraid of becoming too turned on or feeling too much anticipation which may be crushed before I get a solid green light. Once burned, twice shy reflex or really more like 1000 times burned, 50 times shy because I would say my "shy" is low in proportion to the "burn" I have received over the years due to my Weeble-ousity.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I was thinking a similar thing too, but more along the lines that this comment is just a major deflection. I think Mojo’s H deflects as much as she does (or used to do). I think she needs to call him on it. I see this particular incident as more of a boundary issue than a compassion issue.
Quote: It seems to me that reverting to sex is one way you “fix” things. When you fix you are rescuing him, but aren’t you in some way rescuing yourself, because what is rescuing or fixing anyway? Isn’t it just one way to get control over a chaotic or anxious situation and therefore isn’t it a way to sooth your fears?
Obviously, but what exactly is the fear that I am soothing? When I analyzed my feelings yesterday vs.my different feelings in the past, my feeling was that I fear my own desire to leave my H. By actually stating that I wanted a divorce a few weeks ago, I sort of overcame this fear. I can choose not to leave him even if I feel like I want to. Therefore, I think my fear is more that I will become an "abandoner" like my mother than that I will be abandoned. Does this make sense?
Quote: One thing I wonder about is how the boys treated you as a person, did they respect you, were they polite and courteous, or were they crappy? I wonder if they knew what you all were doing was wrong (or at least knew their parents would probably not approve had they known) and when the boys were alone, what would they say about the girls? Would they talk about them in disrespectful ways? It is hard for me to imagine that did not have some thoughts like this. But it is in that very situation where you learned to get approval and acceptance from males, isn’t it? So wouldn’t it make sense that your associate crappy behavior from men with high sex drive?
The weird thing is I don't remember the boys (not men) behaving disrespectfully. It wasn't really like we were having group sex. We engaged in group sexual activities like strip poker but we didn't make out orgy style or anything like that. I would make out with the same boy at the fort on Saturday as I went roller skating with on Friday. The same gang of kids who hung out at the fort would play basketball or listen to records together too. I wasn't engaging in behavior that was considered especially "slutty" amongst my peer group because my peer group was all engaged in the same behavior. As I recall the thing that freaked me out the most was the random minor acts of vandalism that the boys would get up to sometimes. I have been in a couple situations in which I haven't been treated all that respectfully in a sexual context (It's odd but this has happened to me in contexts in which I least expected it. For instance, my sister once set me up with her long term boyfriend's best friend and I ended up in a Wham Bam No Thanks Offered M'am type encounter that REALLY s*cked) but this wasn't one of those situations. I definitely think the situation might have gotten ugly if the boys had been much older or there had been relatively more alcohol than pot involved. One of the guys involved actually ended up married to one of the girls after high school. As far as our parents were concerned I think we were all aware of them only as sort of Charlie Brown gibberish in the background. Also, you have to remember the cultural context of the disco era. Several of the kids in our crowd had older baby boomer siblings who were REALLY wild compared to us.
I really don't think I associate cr*ppy behavior from men with high sex drive. I think the opposite is true. I tend to think men behave well towards me in direct correlation with their sex drive towards me. I associate my H's cr*ppy behavior with his low sex drive. This is probably an error in reasoning on my part since many LDW on the BB have reported that their H's are capable of simultaneous HD and cr*ppy behavior and many HDW have reported their H's are capable of simultaneous LD and wonderful behavior otherwise.
Quote: Anyway, could this experience have caused you to focus on the physical sex part and shut down on the emotional connection part?
I would say that the situation was that we were so young that we were "playing" at both sex and emotional connection. I mean at that age if somebody "breaks up" with you, you are heartbroken but only for a couple weeks until you meet someone else cute at the roller rink.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
….my feeling was that I fear my own desire to leave my H. By actually stating that I wanted a divorce a few weeks ago, I sort of overcame this fear.
I’m trying to understand this. Are you saying that you fear what it is that you actually want, or at least think you want? I can’t get my mind around that. But could it be that what you fear is having to confront the hard choice of divorce and all the responsibility, guilt and possibly blame that comes with being the one to file first? I can understand this explanation and I think it is natural feeling.
But compare how you felt to what Corri describes about her H, that she is “done” and has no more emotion toward him, either good or bad. You still seem to have a good deal of emotion wrapped up in your H, so I am guessing that means you are not really “done” yet.
I can choose not to leave him even if I feel like I want to. Therefore, I think my fear is more that I will become an "abandoner" like my mother than that I will be abandoned. Does this make sense?
Do you have a lot of anger and a sense of shame about what your mother did? Perhaps you are wearing some of her guilt? Perhaps you are angry with her for not being a better mother and giving you the comfort and security you needed in such a chaotic and scary household? Maybe she is the one you need to feel compassion toward, so you can then allow yourself to feel compassionate toward you? (I don’t know, just throwing stuff out.)
Do you think you could be projecting any of this repressed anger toward your H, and he acts in the same irresponsible way as your mother, that created your sense of abandonment on the first place? (Again, just guessing.)
This whole issue of anger and resentment is something I am trying to understand now, so the book by Stosny was a big help. I am trying to find a good way to release this old anger, especially on behalf of my wife. I also see this as a major impediment to growth, for my own sitch as well as so many others on this board. Anger kept me lockdown for so long, and it still comes up from time to time.
Quote: But could it be that what you fear is having to confront the hard choice of divorce and all the responsibility, guilt and possibly blame that comes with being the one to file first? I can understand this explanation and I think it is natural feeling.
Yes, I think that is it. My desire to divorce fills me with guilt because on some level I think it is wrong to want to leave a marriage for sexual reasons. If I let my children suffer just because I want to get laid more often then I would be a bad mother like my mother was a bad mother.
Quote: You still seem to have a good deal of emotion wrapped up in your H, so I am guessing that means you are not really “done” yet.
This is true too. When I said I was going to file, my H acted tough (he said "Do what you got to do just don't sell my piano.") but he looked "crushed" and that sent me back into a state of fusion or feeling like I cared or something.
Quote: Perhaps you are wearing some of her guilt?
My biggest fear is ending up like my mother.
Quote: Maybe she is the one you need to feel compassion toward, so you can then allow yourself to feel compassionate toward you?
I'm sure this is true but it is very difficult. My mother reacts in rage whenever she feels like a demand of any type has been put on her. For instance, my youngest sister just graduated from law school. She made the big mistake of asking my mother which of two jobs she should take. When she didn't take my mother's advice to take the one that paid better, my mother left a 5 minute screaming message on her message machine about what a selfish, irresponsible brat she was and how she better never come to my mom looking for financial support. I can feel compassion for my mother in the way I might feel compassion for anyone who is mentally ill but I can't try to be more intimate with her.
Quote: Do you think you could be projecting any of this repressed anger toward your H, and he acts in the same irresponsible way as your mother, that created your sense of abandonment on the first place?
It feels more like my mother is the reason I repress feelings of anger in general, not like she is any longer the source of my anger. For instance, when my H has done irresponsible things like quitting a job without notice, I think it is natural that I would feel somewhat angry about his behavior whether or not my mother behaved in similar irresponsible ways. However, because I don't want to be my mother's daughter I repress these natural feelings of anger and this in a sense leads to a sort of marital neglect on my part because I don't ask for the kind of behavior I would respect from my H. Or maybe this is just the theory of the month I've come up with to rationalize staying in this marriage because somehow it's my fault that my H doesn't want to have sex with me.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I can sure relate to having a nutcase for a mother! Screaming on the phone because your sister took the wrong job. Boy does she have a lot of resentment bottled up in her. Yep, I’ve had those moments too. Right now my mom is ticked at me because I told her some time back how toxic she is and I don’t want my kids around that stuff. This was partly in response to my wife fighting with my mom years ago and the more recent complaints about her. I told my mom several times she should go to counseling and I sent her a few books on narcissism and Schnarch, so she isn’t talking to me. Not to worry. She’ll think up some emergency reason to call and act like everything is OK.
My mom has poor self esteeem, even though she puts forth the persona of confidence, self sufficiency, etc. Its all a façade. Sounds like your mom’s the same. There is no way you can grow up under someone like that and not have it wear off onto you. I try to understand now that what ticks me off about her is also part of me. Trying to detach from that part of me has been tough. I don’t feel intimate with her either, and I have lost a good deal of respect for her. That helps to detach from her nonsense, so I can view her like a monkey in a cage.
I can also understand the repression of feelings of anger. I used to repress them out of fear. If I showed anger, she would show even more anger, and she was willing to go as far as she had to in order to win. So it was just safer to withdraw. But once I grew older and realized what was going on, I became angry at being controlled in this way. So she was, and can still be, the source of some of my anger.
I think you can repress anger once you’ve identified where it comes from and how it is affecting you. But to just blindly stuff it will cause a lot of resentment to build up, at least that’s how I see it. So your “marital neglect” may be a passive-aggressive reaction to not expressing your anger, which I still think is a holdover from your mom. I can also see how the blame your mother would throw on everyone else has seriously damaged your self esteem, to the point that you felt responsible for rescuing others or felt you didn’t deserve anything yourself.
My wife has a friend who has an angry and verbally abusive husband. He’s got some major hangups and compulsions, and rages about the house being clean, no one touching his stuff, silly stuff like that. His wife and oldest D walk on eggshells. Both go out of their way to placate the H and avoid the arguments. A major explosion is coming in that household some day. But until then, the D pulls her hair out (she’s got bald patches on her head), has pulled out her eye lashes, is over weight, but is soooo politically correct and soooo eager to agree with everything anyone says. Yep, one day her lid is gonna blow.
As a younger Mojo, I can envision you somewhat like this girl, trying to please, walking on eggshells, surrendering herself as she tries to get anyone to accept and love her. Its really sad. This girl will undoubtedly will have major anger issues toward her father, and if she doesn’t get counseling, I see no reason why she shouldn’t marry someone just like her dad and project all her anger onto him.
Your analysis is right up to a point. I didn't walk on eggshells around my mother when I lived with her and I definitely didn't try to placate her. I actively avoided her presence but I also had many, many screaming matches with her. My mother was out-to-lunch on her manic sprees more than she was actively raging. Her rages were almost always ambush attacks so you couldn't benefit by walking on eggshells to avoid them. My sister has commented on the fact that when I was younger I was less wimpy than I am now. I think maybe becoming a mother myself triggered my desire to repress my anger in order to not be like my mother. I didn't want my children to grow up in a house full of yelling and anger so I started avoiding conflict with my H when I realized that he had the tendency to lose his temper when confronted. I wouldn't repress my anger to protect myself from conflict or abandonment but I would do it to protect my children. Maybe if my H and I had been married for a while before we had children this could have been avoided or resolved. Interestingly, I was never overweight before I married and when I let myself feel actively angry I lose weight almost effortlessly. So maybe I do "stuff" my feelings like your poor little friend.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: I think it is wrong to want to leave a marriage for sexual reasons
Your sexual "problems" are a manifestation of much deeper issues. If you left, it wouldn't be for sexual reasons alone. If your husband adored you, treated you with unfailing kindness even when he was mad or unhappy with you, if he was a fountain of affection, and held up his end of the household basically no matter what... there wouldn't BE any sexual issues.
Quote: he looked "crushed" and that sent me back into a state of fusion or feeling like I cared or something
Caring, feeling like you care, acting like you care-- NONE of these things is the same as fusion.
