I think it is about balancing the nice guy with traits of a not-so-nice guy. There is little or no challenge to a nice guy that rolls over and loses his perspective in life - hence making your woman a journey. As TJ puts it, you need to provide the sense that she is going on that journey. Look at ANY romance novel. They aren't about "nice" guys per se - more about those that are on an adventure, and the woman is swept away by it all....
All too often we allow ourselves to settle into the duldrums of life and forget how to live. When we distance, just enough - set boundaries and allow ourselves to live - the we become "alive" again...and that much more attractive.
I can recall the WAW telling me how much she wanted to "live in the moment..." (which BTW, she cannot - you have to be really careful about pulling anything spontaneous). That is what attracted her to the OM - he did and he was a complete jerk to her - which she liked to a degree. She would turn to ME when she needed emotional support.
So my 180 was to balance the two. I have STOPPED allowing myself to be stepped on (remember the story from vacation) - but I have also stepped up my efforts to be there for her - other night when I was DYING to go to bed, but she wanted to talk after work - so I listened.
So it really is about taking your spouse on a journey. Hence, why the P&A 180 can be so powerful. "I prefer YOU, but I am moving on. And I'll miss you if you don't come". Also for me, I recall WAW saying "I just don't know if I am making the right choice". "You won't know, if you DON'T try" her mutual friend kept telling her....
If you can pull this off and be true to yourself, then imagine how much you have grown....
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
huh, you guys are making me think. A lot. Very cool perspective and I like it a lot. You have clarified much for me. I'll keep thinking about this and post my results later.
This morning she is in a lousy mood. D17 is making some bad choices and it's affecting W badly. It's a wierd sitch because she's not really our Daughter. So I think it puts W really has more R's with her (daughter friend, student, employee) and that is confusing for her as she doesn't know which is the dominant R. D17 didn't tell us that she had gotten back together with the loser boyfriend and I think W is hurt most as a friend that didn't get confided in. Not sure. Or she is seeing her own mistakes of youth get repeated. Whichever she is upset and didn't sleep. So this is an opportunity for me to detach. Let her own her feelings and keep myself out of them. I'll be there for her if she wants me but at the moment she doesn't seem to want it so I won't.
It is a little weird at first - but think it out....Sven and I and another have been working on this stuff for quite a while now - and it's just beginning to "make sense" beyond a logical stage....
Look at it this way and notice where the adventure emphasis lies...
Take someone ON an adventure - the focus is on YOUR adventure and the other person is coming WITH you to share in it....
Make someone the adventure - now the focus is totally off what YOU want and on THEM.
Okay - now step back for a second and compare/contrast with DRing - esp LRT....where is the focus?
Ding! I just saw a light bulb go on I do believe....I had to listen to this section of the CD a few times to "get it" and really just NOW while writing am making the full connection - but it's really powerful.
Women want to be taken ON an adventure - they do NOT want to BE the adventure.
And I challenge any female readers to prove me incorrect. And yes, I made this mistake BIG TIME. This is THE mistake that hallmark's a "nice guy"
Just for clarification's sake - when I refer to "nice guy" I'm not talking about courtesy and politeness and all that - I'm talking about catering to each and every whim of her's and dropping everything that matters to you in an attempt to appease her. IOW, utterly giving up everything that made you you. Hi! That was me!
Sven's reference to romance novels is spot on - what's the plot? Wild man doing cool things thrills lady. He blows her off and does his own thing and she wants him all the more until he finally relents just enough to literally sweep her along on HIS ride.
Or to put it another way "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".....
Drop me a line - got something I want to share with you - iamtj63@yahoo.com
I've come back this morning to read this and it is certainly sinking in a bit.
The first part "being taken on an adventure" is becoming very clear but the secong "be the adventure" is still a bit murky but clearing up quickly. I am sure that the murkiness is absolutely due to my difficulty in seeing myself.
I could see it in you TJ. I cringed at the "Husband coupons" but then I gave husband coupons myself much earlier in the game. And I knew I shared the same problem. Just had a hard time identifying it myself.
When I pulled the Paul and Anne last week I did pretty damn good and then I blew it. Everything was perfect. I was exuding confidence and getting my message across. But then I ran out of words and said something stupid. I said something to the effect of "Your the most important thing in the world to me" Some driveling statement like that anyway. But in light of the current conversation the answer now makes perfect sense. "That's just too much pressure for me". Sensing I had blown it I pulled a save, toughened up and said "Well I gotta go" in pure caveman dumb toughness. And I pulled away. Got in the truck, drove off and didn't call until late that night.
Now I'm sure that the two of you, seeing this statement from the outside, could elaborate. Give it a shot.
Funny the qoute "Frankly my Dear, I don't give a damn started running through my head spontaneously a few days ago. Hmm.
Yesterday I pulled that attitude pretty well. Had slipped slightly but not to bad earlier in the week. Actually I shouldn't say slipped, I mean I didn't keep up the attitude as strongly as I should have (slipped). But last night I was leaving. I was gonna be gone for the evening and she would be also. I made it a point that I was going out. She was teaching classes and I made no efforts to go in and say goodbye. Just got my stuff and headed out. Well guess what? On my way out she left her class she was teaching and made some excuse to go to the car ahead of me. She turned around and grabbed me and kissed me. It was one of those one leg up reaching up to make sure I knew it was deliberate kinda kisses. Not just a casual cya later kinda thing. whoa.
So it seems that if I pull away and do not initiate a kiss or physical contact, she does. The seesaw is working. It was very difficult the last few days for me not to initiate. But it certainly has a payoff.
Quote: When I pulled the Paul and Anne last week I did pretty damn good and then I blew it. Everything was perfect. I was exuding confidence and getting my message across. But then I ran out of words and said something stupid. I said something to the effect of "Your the most important thing in the world to me"
Okay, this is driving me nuts today. Why is telling your w, the woman that you love that she is the most important thing to you "blowing it?" Ladies, is that not what you want to hear? We love that sh*t Xue. Why inhibit your natural feelings of love or face being told you are manipulating her just because you want to express love for the woman you adore?
These games...not good! DB in this vein is good for stabilizing things in the beginning when our world gets turned topsy-turvy, but you are beyond that and acting "as if" for the rest of your life makes no one happy, least of all you.
Anyway, I posted to you on TJ's sex thread in newcomers more of my thoughts about your W being the "pursuer" and you can read about it there.
Here is the question...how long will the payoff last? How long can you keep saying "frankly my dear I don't give a damn" when you actually really do give a damn?
Thanks for stopping in and playing the devil's advocate.
To tell the truth I can't say how the payoff will continue or how to make it continue. Really totally new territory for me. Strange stuff, In the past year I've finally become comfortable with showing my feelings. That was a problem in the past but I'm past that. However what I observe is undisputable. When I said "You can do what you want I'm blowing you off right now" essentially, the reaction was to come to me. When I said "your everything to me" the reaction was to pull away.
Based upon the scientific process ( do more of what works, less of what doesn't) the results are obvious.
When I approach to give a kiss goodbye or goodnight or whatever, the results are less than stunning. When I go to leave without going for a goodbye kiss (which is hard as hell BTW) the results are the opposite.
Last night I said I was going out after the event I had to go to. I help with the local cable station filming. She said "Oh are you going to hang with so and so (the station geek boys)" I said "No we'll be done early and I'm going to head out and have a few beers" (Highly unusual for me). The result was that she rushed out to kiss me (never happened before) and called me first thing this morning just to chat.
Don't know how I can deny what I see here.
No offense, but I don't think you women really want what you say you want. And that has been my mistake.
Thanks for your comments on my thread. I've been reading up on all of yours. Very interesting and helpful stuff.
I completely buy into the "they want to be taken on an adventure, not be the adventure" for many (not all) women. Up to a point.
I think mature women see strength and independence differently than immature women/girls.
My wife looks at my being able to turn down a woman showing interest in me as requiring way more strength than giving into her or chasing her. I also think mature women intuitively understand the strength it takes for a man to exhibit self-control, live a quiet (not necessarily boring) family life, guide and instruct his children, hold down a job that provides for them, take care of the house, equipment, etc.
And yes, sometimes that means spending time away, with friends or alone, but always honoring his vows while he's off with his buddies, always coming home, and always making it clear that the marriage comes first.
I think many of our wives want to know that we're strong enough to go off, have an (appropriately) good time, resist any temptations that come along, and then return to them. If we don't do that, they get uncomfortable and think we have an unhealthy dependence on them, or there's something else wrong with us (maybe we don't trust ourselves or have confidence in our own ability to be faithful and return???)
I think it makes them want to remind us that they are there (spontaneous affection), and they want to let us know we're wanted so that we know what we have to lose. The want to know we can face temptation but are strong enough to resist it and return to them.
Maybe
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
Based upon the scientific process ( do more of what works, less of what doesn't) the results are obvious.
When I approach to give a kiss goodbye or goodnight or whatever, the results are less than stunning. When I go to leave without going for a goodbye kiss (which is hard as hell BTW) the results are the opposite.
Hey Xue, Just a thought... she may not realize she's doing this. Telling you one thing and doing another. I don't know enough of your sitch to say the timing is right, but maybe you can solve this by opening communication lines on this. Telling her it's confusing to you when she shows that she wants you to show her love but then when you do you get less of a response than when you don't. Use those examples. She may get upset, but she may also see that she's not communicating what she wants to communicate. That she actually likes hearing that she's the world to you.
Again, I don't know if this is the right moment for it. It depends on how shaky the ground is.
May it be eternal while it lasts.
My sitch
Me: 36
H:34
M: 5 years
Bomb: 03/14/06
