Probably one of the reasons you got the response you did from her is that, to her....you appear to be flip-flopping on what you want.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing that you talked to her or anything like that...but stop worrying about her reactions, she needs to own them. What you were doing was considerate....but when someone's angry at you (which she definitely appears to be) sometimes just the mere fact that you are nice to them when they're being snotty rubs salt in the wound and (at that time) just makes them throw their hands in the air and go "whatever!" in a huff. That was her reaction to what you said...let her live with that reaction, don't try to smooth it over....don't rescue her from it.
You two definitely need counseling HG. The communication between you two really needs someone to help it along...and as a side benefit might help her depression as well.
Do not ever cave into her. YOU need to be consistent. You need to stand up to her. Do not ever do things to accomodate her and keep her happy. Do not try to avoid anger. She wants a man that stands up for himself, that is DECISIVE, and that will not take crap from her. It seems that women constantly are testing their men to make sure they are real men in their eyes. You need to be the ROCK in her life.
I don't think anyone was telling you to stop with the scheduled sex, they were telling you to stop accepting her crappy non-participation. Since YOU didn't feel you could pull that off, you cancelled the whole thing. That's understandable but it is also necessary to let her know why you are cancelling it--because she refused to participate--and not keep it all vague and 'light' (don't worry about it; I don't want you to stress about it, etc). Stop protecting her from the consequences of her own decisions. She made a premeditated decision to be an ice princess on Sex Day and to attempt to freeze you out, and you chose to ignore it and proceed regardless. Imo, both of you made wrong decisions on that front but, hey, we are all human and that happens. The important thing is to cut your losses and get back on track, now.
Here is what I see in your sitch:
It's like you are trying to teach your child to keep their room clean by coddling them.
HG: Clean your room. Kid: No. HG: We are going to do something different and you will clean your room every Thursday. Kid: (sullen) Fine.
Fast forward to Thursday.... HG comes home to attitudinal kid and says nothing. Kid slams stuff around and mopes. Clean up time arrives and the kid stands there and refuses to do anything. HG jumps in and cleans the room anyway. A few days later, he tells the child "I know this is stressful for you, so forget the cleaning altogether." Kid throws hands in air and says, Whatever.
I just don't see how scrapping the whole plan is going to encourage her to do ANYthing differently.
I realize the above example is a parent/child dynamic and that it doesn't translate all that well into marital dynamics but it is for illustrative purposes only. I think I remember that you had a little too much parent/child thing going on in your R anyway, so I don't mean to suggest that you should get all bossy on her. Specifically, I think you should stick with the once per week plan but do NOT follow through with it until she has a better attitude. Look at her and say, "I guess we'll have to try again tomorrow night since you are having an attitude problem." and get up and WALK AWAY DUDE! Don't give me that baloney about seeing skin and all. You can do it, my friend. Have some self respect and, eventually, she will start to respect you too. Right now, you've subtracted sooooooooo many units from the Respect Bank that she can't locate her desire for you.
Annette, I believe hap's wife is the one who said "The day you make me go to a counselor is the last day of our marriage."
But hap, I say to you: go to a therapist on your own. By yourself. Do not ask your w's permission. Just go. You cannot dig yourself out of this hole without professional help. As much as we care, you need someone IRL right there with you.
Also I'm quoting this from my thread, because you may not have seen it over there. FORGET the quick fix, in fact, forget any fixing at all. You cannot fix someone else. Period. YOU are the only one you can fix, and even if you change, the other person may NEVER change. That is REALITY.
by James J. Messina, Ph.D. & Constance M. Messina, Ph.D
What is the need to fix?
The need to fix is: Compulsively driven behavior to rescue or help another person, place, or thing to be the way you believe it "should be.'' Seeing another person, place, or thing as "in need'' and the automatic response pattern to this message. Belief that, unless everything is "just right'' for another person, then that person can never fully be happy in life. Obsessive need to have every thing, person, and place "perfect'' or "correct'' in order for you to be comfortable enough to be relaxed and accepting of them. Inability to accept people, places, or things the way they are and the chronic attempt at changing them even if they are unchangeable. Acting on the belief that you have more knowledge than others as to what is good for them so you strive to correct their thinking to "see the light'' in your way. Inability to maintain emotional detachment from a person, place, or thing that is hurting or in trouble. You proceed to fix them even if this means that they are hindered from personal growth and accepting personal responsibility for their own actions. Inability to not give advice, suggestions, or offers of help, even when you know in doing so that it will hinder another person's growth and personal mastery in life. Interfering in business and personal affairs "to help'' people even when they haven't asked for your help or assistance. Drive to feel "needed'' or "wanted'' which leads you to become overly involved and overresponsible in your relationships with persons, places, and things. Result of a pattern of getting approval and recognition from others for "helping'' in the past with the belief that this is the only way you can have meaning in life. What are the negative effects of the compulsive need to fix?
If your compulsive need to control others by "fixing" them is not resolved, they you:
Run the risk of developing a series of relationships with people, places, or things who become overly dependent on you. Run the risk of becoming a caretaker to many with few people giving you the healthy emotional support you need to be a fully functioning and coping human. Will be unable to remain emotionally detached when you run across a person, place, or thing which appears "helpless.'' Experience people moving away from you if they no longer desire "to be fixed'' by your advice, solutions, or insights. Will never take care of your own needs because you will have successfully avoided focusing on self by diverting your focus to fixing others. Become guilt ridden if people, places, or things which you are trying "to fix'' don't get "fixed'' and instead get worse. Might tie your identity into the "fixer'' role and never be able to enjoy a truly healthy give and receive relationship with anyone. Will feign "wellness'' as a mask to convince others you have found the answers "to fix'' them and thus remain static or reverse in your personal emotional health. Will hand out a lot of "I owe you's'' to those you fix in hope they will be there for you when you need them, unfortunately forgetting that your only worth to them has been the fixing you perform and they will not "come through'' the way you hope they will in your time of need. Might be the one who does all the work in a relationship and, once you "stop the work,'' the relationship will die since you are no longer working at fixing it. Might become hostile, angry, rageful, or hateful to those whom you have "fixed'' if they do not give you enough recognition in return for your efforts. Might have successfully used everyone else's problems to divert your attention from yourself, the only one you have greatest odds of fixing because you can have control and change yourself best. Will increase in your low self-esteem as you lose yourself in "fixing'' others. How is the need to fix a control issue?
The need to fix is a control issue because:
It puts the "locus of control'' into your hands as the fixer rather than into the hands of those being fixed where it correctly belongs. If you are a "fix it'' person, you end up trying to control every situation, person, place, or thing to be "right'' or "perfect'' so that you can feel sane, safe, and in control. Fixing is taking over the responsibility of another person, place or thing and being sure that the outcome for them is positive and in accord with your mental picture or ideal of the "way things should be'' in your world. It robs people, places, and things of their freedom to be themselves because of your need to correct, change, or alter them to be the way you want them to be. Giving advice, offering solutions, and directing choices puts you in a "power'' and "controlling'' position over those things you are trying to fix. In your enthusiasm to help, you run the risk of using threats, coercion, or intimidation to get others to do what you believe will fix them. In your compulsive, addictive, or obsessive need to fix, you might be taking on uncontrollable and unchangeable things which burn you out and leave you in need of being "fixed.'' The sense of over-responsibility which leads you to need to fix others is a "de-powering'' of the others to take responsibility for themselves; it puts the onus of accountability on you if the solutions do not succeed. It also puts the recognition for their success on you rather than on those you are fixing. "Addicted fixers'' do not allow those whom they are trying to fix to become independent or to think and try things out on their own and create over-dependency on themselves to make things right. Being a "fixer'' is a powerful position which gives you a sense of importance, being special, and a reason for being. Those being "fixed'' often feel "out of control'' in terms of what is happening in their lives and can become dependent on you the fixer to "do for them'' rather than to "do for themselves.'' Although "fixing'' looks altruistic, it is really a sef-centered behavior because the outcome is not so much for the other's benefit but to make you feel good, relaxed, at peace in that things are the way they "should be.'' What irrational thinking leads to the need to fix?
Examples of irrational thinking which leads you to the need to fix other people, places, or things are:
When you have the resources materially, emotionally, intellectually, and energy-wise, you should always be ready to share these with others less fortunate than you whom you perceive to be in need of help and assistance. You should never stand by and not get involved when you see someone hurting and in need. You are rewarded in so many ways for the sacrifices you make to help others and it is a straight path to heaven if you give to others without any hesitation. You should give insights from your life experiences whenever you find someone in a similar situation. You should never wait for a person to ask for help since so many people are shy when it comes to admitting they don't know what to do with their lives. You must die to self if you are to gain eternal reward. To be focused only on solving your own problems is so selfish. Therefore, you are sure to gain a higher eternal reward if you dedicate your life to helping others no matter what are the physical or emotional costs to yourself. It is impossible to ignore a plea for help especially when it comes from someone who is obviously "helpless.'' It is a real sign of your personal growth that, after a time in recovery, you can have the insights, answers, solutions, and clarity of direction for everyone with whom you come in contact. You can burn yourself out just focused on your own personal growth so to revitalize yourself you should get involved with other people's problems to give you a better perspective on your own problems. What will others think of you if you don't offer help to someone who is obviously in need? Your meaning and purpose in life will be threatened if you are not needed to fix, rescue, or help someone. Being a "fixer'' is not something which you want to avoid being because it is the only way you have ever gotten people to recognize and to accept you. Ways to overcome compulsive fixing
In order to overcome being a compulsive "fixer" you need to:
Accept the belief that others must accept personal responsibility for their own lives and actions. Recognize that being a "fixer'' is a way to control others. It places the responsibility for the other's actions on you, which is not where it belongs. Establish a healthy emotional boundary between you and those whom you desire to fix. Develop a philosophy of "helping'' which emphasizes that what people need is emotional support and understanding of their feelings concerning a problem rather than advice, direction, suggestions, or "content'' solutions. Establish healthy emotional detachment from the persons, places, things whom you feel driven to "fix". Find your reinforcement, strokes, or "warm fuzzies'' from within yourself and not get "hooked'' on the need for approval or recognition from others for what you do for them. Accept that in "helping'' another the goal and purpose is to help the other to help himself. Recognize that "doing for'' another is not helping another get strong, healthy, or independent. Recognize when the compulsion "to fix'' arises so that you can use rational thinking and feeling to develop strategies of helping which leave the others free to "fix'' themselves. Accept that you can only fix one person, namely yourself, and that all others must be responsible for "fixing'' themselves. Give permission to the people in your life to call you on it or to confront you when you are caught up in the need to "fix'' them. Gain support from your support network as you let go of the people, places, and things you feel compelled to fix. Recognize that the only way you can get significant others to recognize that they need help is to be "squeaky clean and healthy'' in your relationship with them. Accept that your fantasy or dream of how others would be if they changed is your fantasy and dream and not necessarily theirs. Identify that, if another has a problem, then they have to own it if they are ever going to fix it and that, if you try to fix the problem, then you are taking on ownership of the problem as your own. Accept that, when a problem exists in your relationship with another, both parties must work on it to fix it if they are to come to a compromise and healthy "win win'' resolution. Identify that obligation and over-responsibility are not healthy enough reasons to keep you in a "fixer'' posture with others. Realize that guilt as a motivator to keep you hooked into a "fixer-fixee'' relationship is unhealthy for you and the other. Steps to overcome the "fixer" role
Step 1: In your journal, you first need to list and identify all persons, places, and things with whom you are a ``fixer.''
A. The people I feel a need to "fix'' are: B. The places I feel a need to "fix'' are: C. The things I feel a need to "fix'' are:
Step 2: For each person, place, or thing identify the following:
A. What are the issues that need fixing? B. For whom are these issues a problem? Are they a problem for you, a problem for the other, or a problem for both of you? C. How openly has the other admitted these issues are problems and how have they asked for your help to ``fix'' them? D. How has the other tried to take steps to solve or "fix'' these problems on their own? How successful have they been?
Step 3: You next need to identify what are the "hooks'' in your relationship with each person, place, or thing that keep you in your addicted fixer role. For each person, place, or thing you identified in Step 1 now identify which of these twenty hooks exist for you and put an X next to it..
Emotional Hooks Self Assessment ___ ( 1) Your sense of guilt if they should get worse ___ ( 2) Your sense of over-responsibility ___ ( 3) Your sense of obligation ___ ( 4) Your fantasy of a change in the relationship ___ ( 5) Fear of losing them ___ ( 6) Your need to be needed ___ ( 7) Your need to control others ___ ( 8) Your fear of going insane if they don't change ___ ( 9) Your overemotional enmeshment or attachment with them ___ (10) Your need for approval and recognition ___ (11) Your need to be seen as a "helper'' who does good for others ___ (12) A martyr complex. This is your role in life to clean up the messes which others make in your life ___ (13) A sense that they can't do it without you ___ (14) A way of keeping the focus off your needs by keeping the spotlight on help of others ___ (15) The others don't recognize that you are an addicted fixer with them ___ (16) Your own low self-esteem and unhealthy way of thinking, feeling, and acting ___ (17) Your inability to emotionally detach from others who are in a toxic relationship with you ___ (18) Your competitive need to look more knowledgeable, wiser, and more "together'' than the other ___ (19) Your need to ensure that your current life is not as dysfunctional as your past life was ___ (20) Your "pride'' that only you can correct or fix things for others
Step 4: Once you identify the "hooks'' in the relationship with each person, place, and thing for whom you are an addicted fixer, then you need to develop rational, healthy alternative beliefs which allow you to "let go'' of the need to "fix'' them.
Step 5: You then need to get support from your own network of support to "let go'' of the need to "fix'' these persons, places, and things.
Step 6: You need to give back to each person, place, and thing the responsibility for their own actions and solutions to their problems.
Step 7: You need to seek your Higher Power's strength as you cease your "fixer'' role in the lives of these persons, places, and things.
Step 8: If you find yourself relapsing into the "fixer'' role again with any person, place, or thing, then return to Step 1 and begin again.
Ok, I misunderstood.. I thought the general consensuss was to not try the weekly (weakly) sex and focus on all the other stuff we have going on right now. But regardless, yes, I made the call to stop it for the time being. I simply don't know if I could bring myself to try to initiate after what happened last week. I don't want to see her get that angry, then insist that since I brought it up I had better follow through and then have to survive the aftermath when I walk away not doing anything. It's just not worth it at this point. So, yes. I canceled the whole thing.
The whole switching to no coddling thing ia much harder than I thought it would be.. It is such a natural part of me to want to jump in and take care of her and show her how wonderful she can be. Switching modes can be very hard and it takes a lot of focus to stay on track.
Quote: Switching modes can be very hard and it takes a lot of focus to stay on track.
EXACTLY HG...that's why I keep telling you to focus on YOU...not her. For you, learning to behave differently IS going to take focus..if you keep getting sidetracked by rescuing her...or worrying about how she'll react...you take the focus off of working on YOU.
The only way she'll learnto rescue herself...or work her way out of her emotional issues is for you to back up and stop rescuing her. Then most likely she'll eventually step up and begin to sort through her own stuff...what alternative does she have? It's either you keep rescuing her, she gets to stay in her comfy zone...and nothing is ever resolved....or you backoff, work on HG, she sits in her own uncomfortable spot...and hopefully eventually decides she doesn't like that spot enough to do something about it.
Hang in there...it's hard to change the habits you are working on, but you're getting there.
I think you need to listen to her. She is telling you what she wants – EC. You spilled your guts here on this board. Have you done that with her? If not, why not? What do you think she wants to hear from you? She doesn’t really give a flip about what you did at the office. She wants to commiserate with you. She wants to see your vulnerabilities, to hear and feel your fears. I think that is where she is at mentally, as evident from her dreams, so that is that language that will get through to her. Office talk is not it. If this concept still eludes you, then you have very clear direction from her on what you can do in counseling to help the situation. Perhaps if she sees you become vulnerable in counseling, she will eventually feel safe enough to go herself. But you need to take the first step.
In this twisted ironic way, getting in touch with your feminine side, crying a few tears, showing your fears and vulnerabilities, is how you become the alpha male rock of stability to her. (CeMar, Heather, ya listening?)
Cobra, I don't think it's that he isn't willing to be vulnerable. I think it is that she is a woman and reads him QUITE well. Iow, she can see plain as day that his words (I am not happy with the state of our marriage) and actions (I am kissing your behind because that is what I've always done and I am a control freak and am afraid to let things happen as they may and also because I dislike confrontation and being true to my feelings is a form of confrontation). Whew. That last one got a bit long. Happy, my point is that when your actions and behavior match your words about how serious you are about the state of your M, your wife will sit up and listen. That's why the No Coddling stuff has gotten her attention so well--because for the first time in years, your behavior matches your inner thoughts. She *knows* this, HG. She simultaneously hates it and it relieves her. She is seeing the real you.
It's so funny how others can see all the work that needs to be done on US and we can only see the work that needs to be done on our spouse, isn't it?
If I were you, I'd head to the counselor and say: "Doc, I need help with my controlling nature, my passive aggressiveness, my tendency to avoid confrontation at all costs, and my need to act out in destructive ways that are designed to get my wife's attention."
STOP worrying about her. When you do, there is at least a 50/50 chance that she will get her sh*t together. Right now, with you trying to control the outcome so strongly, she is going to dig in her heels and refuse to change at all.
I think you are on the right track but need a little more nudging to make sure that you don't get diverted by gazing at your wife's flaws.
In case you think I'm being harsh, my own list to the shrink several years ago would have consisted of things like: I have an anger problem, I try to control my H with my wicked tongue, I do not give his needs any importance, ETC. I could go on and on but this is about you.
