ok so you had 'killer quality' at one time. now the frequency is not that low, so that technically its not a SSM. or would you like that to be higher?
from your post, it appears to me that you want/need ideas on impoving your 'throw down' and or ideas for leading in the bedroom, or on the hiking trail to get more variety/quality.
Yes? If this is the case, then your power struggles and respect for each other are probably fairly even. it may be a simple matter of fine tuning and tweaking how you lead, and how you communicate.
i try and try and try and try, yet its the same ole same ole - same responses, same actions
hey look the definition of insanity. it also can feel like supplicating to the recipient
the romance, the trying, the allowing of SO to be the aggressor, me making the aggressive move, etc -- over a long period (months) and still no results.
yes pretty standard fare, and pretty standard confusion.
well, i have been called worse, so whatever name you can come up with, i am sure i will answer to
forgive me, but i am not up to speed - ssm? something w/ self satisfaction?
to answer your question, yes power struggles and respect are fairly even. I am looking for a way to add quality that will satisfy both our needs... problem is my needs are different then hers, thus the crux of the problem
an example of a conversation (fight) has gone like this, and i swear, it went the same way each time we talked just about:
** a date was already set where we knew we would just talk/bond. at some point, the topic works its way in and i say... H: Sweety, i want to let you know that i havent been that happy lately because i have been feelin neglected physically W: Why? H: Because I have gotten tired of tryin to make moves and constantly being told no. It is rejection to me, makes me feel like i am not wanted W: <given a look like, WTF?> which starts the yellin H: Why do you keep turnin me away? W: Cause i dont like what your asking, or I am uncomfortable with it so I say no H: i dont understand why you are so uncomfortable about any of this? W: I just am. why cant you accept that? (cryin and yellin now) H: because it wasnt a big issue before and now it is. i miss it and miss the variety it brings. W: I dont know what to tell you then, but i cant have you around here if you are goin to continue to act this way and get upset everytime you get turned away H: You turn me away everytime.... W: Because I dont want that. Why cant you appreciate what you have and get H: Because over the years i have grown and wanted to experience/experiment more with you, yet i feel you dont feel the same way... and that hurts. other then that, i am happy with everything. i just wish we could figure out how we can make it work for both of us on this front W: We can and will once you accept what you can and cant have....
by this time the conversations are just about over - too much crying and yelling and i give up....
Hey andy (personally, I'd call you "trog", short of troglodyte, cave dweller, but blackie beat me to it). First of all, "ssm." Clues to its meaning abound...they are even on this very page...near the top. I'll wait while you peruse the page.
(hairdog taps his foot, listens to the muzak)
Of course, you figured it out! Another handy place to find out what some of the abbreviations mean is right here.
We tolerate quirks here, but not laziness. You came here for answers? You gotta work for it.
Now, let's get busy. Your standard conversation with your wife sounds a lot like the conversations I had with my wife beginning in about 2000 and continuing for about six years.
I wish someone had said this to me back then: starting off a conversation with 1) a declaration that you're not happy, and tying that unhappiness to 2)the direct cause of the unhappiness as 3)your spouse "neglecting" you, does not become any less of an indirect way of saying "Fark you, you frigid b!tch, and the ice dragon drawn sleigh you rode in on!" merely by prefacing the statement with the appelation, "Sweety."
What I'm trying to say is, when you open up a can of worms, be prepared to be eaten up by them, because, sooner or later, we all are. Okay, I just read what I wrote and it's not as clear as I want it to be.
You told her you weren't happy because she wasn't putting out. She hears that, and immediately is going to get defensive. The rest of the convo doesn't really matter. You just can't start out that way. That's not a conversation, it's an accusation. You've also handed her the responsibility of making you happy. Not her job. Yeah, I know, but she married you, wives shall cleave and all that.
It doesn't work that way.
This is a big thing to try to get your mind around, but it is the necessary first step on this really crappy journey you're about to take. It might end up great, but it might not. However, I can almost guarantee you that the journey will be the worst slog through the muck you can imagine, complete with leaky uncomfortable shoes, and no end in sight for most of the way.
But before you take this crappy trip, you have to believe with all your being that she is not responsible for your happiness. Until you get there, you'll continue to replay the same fight, over and over.
Did I mention that the trip is really crappy?
One bright spot: this message board has lots of smart people who can be very helpful.
hairdog: yes, i know the road is going to be rough.... its a road I was, and am still willing to take. The moment I proposed to her, I knew what that meant.
Right now, I feel like I am at a point where we need to teach an old dog new tricks (for both H & W); with that comes tension and a need for patience for both parties
i see your viewpoint on how the situation was approached and obviously my intent was not for it to be perceived that way. I am obviously struggling with how to express my unhappiness about the situation and come to a common ground. yet, i dont think the W sees this as a problem whereas I do. so the struggle continues. (I have not read any books or anything yet, but plan on it)
i realize she is not responsible for my happiness but i do believe that she has a responsibility to share with me and make an effort to meet my needs and grow with me, something I feel like is not happening. Almost like we are growing apart in this area because our priorities, likes/dislikes are different right now
The more I think about it, the more I feel like I am being narrow-minded AND the more I feel like I am the one that will have to sacrifice to make it work. I just don't think that is right (the sacrificing part) - I guess that is where my youth and negligence comes in? Either way, I know nothing will help or change until I get beyond that way of thinking
then you said... Because I have gotten tired of tryin to make moves and constantly being told no. It is rejection to me, makes me feel like i am not wanted
im sorta confused..
H: i dont understand why you are so uncomfortable about any of this? W: I just am. why cant you accept that? (cryin and yellin now) hmm whats with the crying and yellin? H: because it wasnt a big issue before and now it is. i miss it and miss the variety it brings. W: I dont know what to tell you then, but i cant have you around here if you are goin to continue to act this way and get upset everytime you get turned away What is this? threats of sepereation? how does this affect you? H: You turn me away everytime.... W: Because I dont want that. Why cant you appreciate what you have and get Im confused? doenst want what? You said you miss it? what is it?
Your wife has some resentments coming from something, and some behaviors that she knows will control the situation in her favor
the frequency of 3-4 x week is good in the sense that you are performing the act of ML; along with that you should feel wanted. While that may seem good and true, its really not because that is what I feel like we are doing, going thru the motions. The neglect comes in when that is what we are doing, going thru the motions. The rejection comes in when I try to do something outside of the norm and get told no. By the norm, I am talking about simple things like touching below the waist (with my hands - not even the mouth), anywhere. BTW - that is what I miss, desire, long for, etc. obviously there is more i would like, but i am trying to start slow/small and that still isn't enough
the crying and yelling comes in because she feels hurt, and she feels that I am not respecting what she likes/dislikes and that I shouldnt try to force anything. I have not forced anything -- but she says by continually talking about this I dont respect her bounds and am trying to break her down into something she doesnt want. I am not trying to break her down - I guess you can say I am being a bit selfish with some of my needs in a relationship. I don't think that is wrong, or is that where I am wrong?
Anyways, I am always intiating in some way to get us to the point of ML (intiating in a way that is within her bounds); when that happens, she knows what I want, so then she is more or less just laying there not showing any type of interest. I have said that if I did nothing and waited for the W on the ML front, it most likely would drop to 1-2/month, on top of that lack quality. I did try this once where I shut it down and I got blasted for being that way... Yes I raised the issue then and the conversation ended the same way
the threats of seperation.... i hate it. i think she brings it up because she knows i wouldnt leave - and she is right. Plus I see it as a way for her to make it home that the conversation is getting out of hand in some way. This is usually when our conversations turn towards just ending the discussion and making things livable
You are complaining of sex being boring. Have you read Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch? We’ve discussed it quite a bit on this board. It might be helpful for your sitch. There is a lot more going on in your marriage than just a lack of sex.
Schnarch discusses a concept called the “Tyranny of the Least Common Denominator.” I mention this on Mojo’s thread here and on Lou’s thread here. The boredom in your marriage may be as much your doing as your wife’s. It sounds like she may have some major hang ups, but I am also hearing issues with you. If she says she feels you are controlling her, then from the standpoint of improving relations, you are. But you might be put in this situation because she refuses to make the necessary choices and growth needed to move forward. I mention this to Hairdog here.
If you are having sexual contact 3-4x/week but it isn't passionate, isn't what you are looking for etc... another interesting resource and hot topic of debate around here is a book called Peace Between the Sheets. It offers an interesting perspective and is worth looking at especially in couple where there is boredom.
This may sound off-topic, but a bit more background with how all this came about: the W did ask what has brought this on all of a sudden and i can reflect back and see where I started down this path of unhappiness: when I got my butt in the best shape of my life (and have not turned back). By going thru the process of rebuilding my physical self, I instilled a sense of confidence, accomplishment, intensity, focus, etc. that has had an impact on every area of my life. for better or worse, that is open to debate
I did include the W, and the W was a part of the process. She wanted to help w/ the small things like tanning, the meals, etc... and because i felt unbelieveable towards myself and how we did work together as a team I felt the need to want to share more w/ the W. Unfortunately I wanted to share so much more physically and well, she didn't - thats how it came across
Now, I have not read that book but did see what you wrote on the other messages and it does make perfect sense. I am just trying to figure out how in the blue H-E-Double Hockey sticks I can get past this dilemma.
Things are boring for me because I am trying, I am wanting, and I am not getting the same mojo (not the person, just the "thing") back that I feel I am putting forth. that is all i find frustating. I know, a bit petty - but that is it.
i am a simple person that really does not ask for much... and if she does have any type of hangups, I honestly dont know what they are. i continually ask, i continually try to nurture things along, yet i am always getting things are great - dont want them any other way.
By going thru the process of rebuilding my physical self, I instilled a sense of confidence, accomplishment, intensity, focus, etc. that has had an impact on every area of my life.
If you W does not have good self esteem (just a guess on my part, but one I’m willing to bet on), then I can understand her letting herself go physically. So when you get into shape, she feels even worse about herself.
... and because i felt unbelieveable towards myself and how we did work together as a team I felt the need to want to share more w/ the W. Unfortunately I wanted to share so much more physically and well, she didn't - thats how it came across
Or maybe she felt left out and that you were changing from the person she married, into someone more self centered. Instead of reflecting back to her the affirmation she needed, you began to ask her to affirm you. She was left out. She needs you to re-enmesh with her and give her the acknowledgement and validation she needs. Then you two can start to both grow and differentiate together. Right now you are both tow little kids trying to show each other who’s toys are the best. You got a new toy, one-upped her, so she is on her pity pot.
Things are boring for me because I am trying, I am wanting, and I am not getting the same mojo (not the person, just the "thing") back that I feel I am putting forth. that is all i find frustating. I know, a bit petty - but that is it.
I would say that you are receiving plenty – giving from yourself to yourself, but you are NOT putting anything out.
i am a simple person that really does not ask for much... and if she does have any type of hangups, I honestly dont know what they are. i continually ask, i continually try to nurture things along, yet i am always getting things are great - dont want them any other way.
I think you ask a lot. If she did NOT work together as a team to pump up your male vanity, how would you feel? What if you were still skinny and out of shape and instead she worked out and got a killer bod, maybe some new boobs, how would you feel about the relationship then? What if you felt she was attracting attention from the guys? Would you be as gung-ho about your relationship then?
I’m not saying there is anything wrong with what you did, just maybe how you did it. I also see plenty of problems with your W, but the two of you are playing the game of switching who’s got the upper hand in the relationship (Schnarch had a name for this dynamic but I can’t think of it). Anyway, as one person goes up, the other goes down. Then it switches. You two are not sharing the field together. It is not level. You are one step above her and wondering why she feels left out. There is a power struggle going on and you two take turns feeling good at the expense of the other.
to get more variety/quality. 
it also can feel like supplicating to the recipient