Here is a tough one I would love feedback on. My W has a ritual where every month she engages in what she calls, “ladies that lunch”. My W tells me that she makes plans to meet up with her gal palls for a lunch thing. Of course, I think it is great that she wants to get out with her friends and do social things. Though, the funny thing is that her engagements frequently turn into unisex lunches where her friends bring along boyfriends and husbands. In fact, one husband goes along nearly every time. Thus, it is obviously not a ladies only event. Even stranger is that in some cases my W even knows that mutual male friends will be coming along in advance, yet my W never invites me to join. Today for example, I even asked, will H X being coming along and my W said, “Oh, yes, I think he is coming”.
Now I feel kind of weird about her whole event because it is not what my W says it is. My W clearly has not indicated the event is a girls only thing to her friends. Actually, it seems to me that the only rule is that I don’t get to attend, even when my mutual friends do. Consequently, I am now bothered by this. What do you all think? Am I just being overly sensitive? Should I talk about this with my W? If so, what would a reasonable position be? Thanks for the feedback.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
I get the same feelings sometimes. My wife travels alot to see her internet friends. I am never invited. It bothers me, but thats more expensive than going to lunch. She is out of town at the moment and because I did bring it up to her a ways back that I dont feel welcome to go, she told me on the phone she wants me to go with her to visit her friend since she thinks her husband and I will get along great. I am sure the thought has not crossed her mind yet that if we do hit it off, then I will probably call him sometimes to BS. That will be amusing as well, when she figures that out. I wonder what we will talk about? She tells me she needs women time, but most of the time they go to Vegas to see the same show because they are all inlove with this particular celebrity...umm okay, have fun. I will be going soon just to watch her reaction. Should be entertaining.
I would just mention you would like to go with her sometime and meet her freinds husbands. Maybe you guys will all get along. If it bothers you, then you should be able to mention it to her.
Hmmm... would you really like to go? Or would you just like to go because you'd like to be invited?
I can understand why you are disappointed that she chooses to do this without you. Maybe she just needs to "have her own space" once a month and the fact that the other gals invite people is neither here nor there in her mind.
How are you doing otherwise Brian?
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Brian, has she specifically excluded you? Maybe she thinks you would be bored. Why don't you just GO?
I also belong to a ladies group that I formed about 13 years ago. Most of the time it is just women but every now and then a husband will come along. A time or two my husband came, and when he died these were the women who rallied round me. Now my bf will go occasionally, but honestly, all of us are in the fund raising business and the talk is usually pretty boring for someone who isn't in our business. I've invited my bf and told him don't feel obligated.
konfused: Thanks for the suggestions. I actually know the guys that go very well. Thus, I know we get along well
Haphazard: would you really like to go? Or would you just like to go because you'd like to be invited? I think it is more that I would like to be invited. I just think it is kind of rude the way my W purposely excludes me sometimes. Yes, we both need our personally lives separate from each other. Though, in this case, the guys are all my poker buddies. In fact, several asked me before why I did not attend.
How are you doing otherwise Brian? Thanks for asking. On the positive, we are still married. Plus, my W has taken a tremendous initiative with our intimate life. In fact, my W has initiated ever time for the last few weeks. It has been fantastic there. On the negative, a little while back, my W admitted that she has very little respect for me any more. After thinking that statement over and strategizing with my IC, I have shifted to taking a very alpha approach to dealing with her. When she pulls her self-centered or passive aggressive punishing BS I have been nailing her to the wall for it. In addition, I have completely stopped all romantic gestures or extra things I normally do to try and maker her happy. I am now operating on bare minimum to get by so that she will wake up and appreciate all the things I do for her. For example, for the last 6 years, I have done nearly all the cooking. Not any more. Now, I make my W get in there and do it too. In summary, there is progress, but I would not want to place odds on this working yet either.
Lillie: Yes, she specifically excluded me by telling me it was a “girls get-together”. Why don't you just GO? You know, that is a good point. Why do I really need an invitation? If the event is unisex and the guys there are my friends too, then it does not matter if my W is considerate enough to include me or not. I think what I am going to do is not say anything for now. Though, when the next one comes up, I will ask my W to check with her friends and find out if H’s are going. If so, then, I am going to just ask what time I should meet them all there. What do you think? Does this avoid confrontation but still get the point across in the right way?
and when he died these were the women who rallied round me. Oh geez Lillie…. you have been through so much.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
This is just my take on it, but here's my 2-cents.
If she refers to this as "Ladies that Lunch"...then it ought to be just that. Now that H's & BF's and mutual male friends are being allowed to tag along....you SHOULD be invited to....at least have the option of going if you wished.
Ya know...there are times I meet up with my girlfriends for drinks after work, or dinner....but my H is ALWAYS invited along if he wishes to go. Most of the time he tells me to go have fun with my friends, but he is ALWAYS invited and welcome to join me.
You need to tell her how this feels to you, that you feel like it's now become something different and you feel excluded.
Respect... aaah respect. She does not respect you because you pursue. And because you have been somewhat dancing to her tune and feeling resentful about the fact that that is what you're doing. From what you have told us she is quite an independent type of person and I get the feeling she would like for you to be independent too. I guess she may be feeling a little overwhelmed by your dependence on her to make you happy. This is not her job, and it is not your job to make her happy either. It is your job to be happy and to share that with her.
Quote: I have completely stopped all romantic gestures or extra things I normally do to try and maker her happy.
You have been trying to make her happy. Do not stop these things out of meanness or out of a desire to come over more alpha. Stop trying to MAKE her happy. If you want to give a romantic gesture do it because it would make YOU happy. I swear she will feel the difference in your approach.
Being alpha is not about being hard or tough or self-centred it is about being happy in your own skin and about being happy to have your partner along for the ride. Do not do anything that makes you uncomfortable or upsets your equilibrium just because you think it would make her (and therefore you) happy. If it seems she would like you to do something previously you would have knee-jerk done it for her, now you are knee-jerk NOT doing it for her (with - I am guessing here - an added helping of nastiness just to make yourself feel tougher). What I think would work better is for you listen to yourself more so that when you think she would like something you can give it without feeling obligated or withhold it without feeling vindictive. You have to be careful that what you think is alpha isn't just over-assertive beta.
Example 1:
She: Honey could you get me a glass of water? Alpha man: Sure (no skin of your nose and you are happy to oblige)
She: Honey could you get me a glass of water? Over-assertive beta: What did your last slave die of?
Example 2: Beta convo: She: You know hon, I've been thinking I don't really like the colour in this living room any more. Beta thinking: Uh oh she wants me to redecorate - but I had plans for next weekend and now she's got me redecorating the living room. Beta out loud: Oh what's wrong with it the way it is? She: Long explanation about colours and what goes with what and light etc Beta thinking: she's so darned negative all the time why can't she just be happy with the colour we did two years ago. Beta - out loud - peevishly: OK babe just pick the colours (sigh) and I'll paint it at the weekend. She (thinking): Gawd, what's wrong with him? Why is always so negative about everything - I can't open my mouth without him getting into a mood.
Over-assertive beta convo: She: You know hon, I've been thinking I don't really like the colour in this living room any more. Over assertive beta: Well you don't need to think I'm doing anything about it. I've got that game next weekend and I'm much too busy after that to even think about doing any decorating. If you want it done do it yourself.
Alpha convo: She: You know hon, I've been thinking I don't really like the colour in this living room any more. Alpha: I guess a change might be nice, did you have any colours in mind? She: Well I was thinking along the lines of ...... Alpha (after listening for a while): You know I've heard that on the <insert name of paint company here> website they've got this colour planning tool. It sounds kind of fun, do you want to try it? She: Hey yeah! That sounds great. Alpha: I don't think we could do the actual decorating job for a couple more weeks though. She: Oh that's no problem sweetheart - whenever you're ready. You've got that game next weekend, so I could start on the prep while you're gone.
Do you see the difference? Alpha isn't a push over but he isn't nasty about it. He engages without defensiveness and is perfectly pleasant about offering to do the things he feels willing and able to do (like mulling over what colours to go for). He is also clear - but without rancour about the things he is not willing to do.
I had fun writing those
Hope it helped some.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Okay, Fran, I'm ready to sigh up for lessons. I totally saw myself reacting the way either a beta or an over-assertive beta would. In fact, I think we may have had this very conversation a few months ago.
I have always wondered what it is that a HD man can actually do to make himself happy. To make ourselves happy, we would have to cheat! If you don't have a "lover", how can you be happy? I have been forced for years now to live the life of a LD, and the one thing of being in this lifestyle is that there is no "point" to the LD lifestyle. Sure, little things in life can make you happy for the moment, but the overall goal, that of having a lover, is never attained, and that leave you feeling empty. This does not seem to bother LD's, because they really don't have any goal to their life, other than to please everyone in their lives.
