I wanted to throw in my 2 cents here…. I have heard the same comment from counselors but I have taken it with a grain of salt. I think there are some websites that are a waste of time, but I do not think this is one of them. I also think there are some counselors who are a waste of time. The problem for the lay person is how do you tell? Generally I think the more we can learn, the better. If that includes a good discussion board, then use it. I have not heard of any criticisms from counselors over reading books and I see little difference between the delivery of information posted here and a book.
I do understand that at some point all that learning should be put to use and that will require time away from the boards and getting into the trenches. But when beginning a relationship recovery, I think it may sometimes be better to resist that temptation, study and grow. Determining when you are ready to directly take on the relationship problems is hard to say, but I kinda think the sort of advice offered by your counselor can also be a little self serving – don’t go looking for outside help, just keep coming (and paying) here. There are so many different approaches to counseling, I sometimes think they get into little turf wars.
I think there are boundaries exercised on this site, so I disagree with your counselor. The face-to-face comment doesn’t make any sense to me at all. The last statement that these types of sites fuel fantasy is just the opposite of what I’ve seen. This board is a good grounding tool. I think it does more to pop those fantasies than fuel them. That is probably testament to the posters here more than anything else.
So I guess my point is that there is a timing element involved for the healthy use of discussion boards and working on a relationship. It all depends on the person.
Oh, and one other thing. I’m not sure stinkin’ thinkin’ is so bad. It would not exist if there were not an underlying problem nagging at you. Not thinkin’ enough and not working on the relationship can allow frustration to build. But if there is some aspect of the marriage that is not the way you like it and it causes discomfort, then either you need to face it and work on it, or accept it as something not worth fixing and don’t fret over it.
I think that you have some very good points for Dave. I am new to the board and am more of a reader than a poster. I come to it for reasons which may be different from anyone elses. That is not to say my reasons are better or worse. I would say that it is important to view all posts as you would any self-help book; and that is with critical thought. Do not assume that all that you read or hear is true or right for you.
I personally have benefitted from learning how others are communicating with their spouses.
I have also just finished the Schnarch book and this board has helped me to understand, critically consider and, to some extent, contextualize his argument. I think that without my reading on this board the book would have much less meaning as I try to consider each person's situation in light of his argument and consider his premises in light of the real-life situations that all of us are going through.
I do have some guilt about exposing my personal life to cyberspace. Not because I have any shame, but rather I feel that I maybe violating some trust between my W and I. Obviously, not enough to stay away. And honestly, I have been having these same conversations with co-workers, other men who are in similar situations as us. It is astounding how many of us there are. I also share with some very close female co-workers who are great to hear from. They provide very good perspective.
So I ask myself which is worse, reading your stories and occasionally chiming in and even less frequently sharing mine, or sharing these same conversations at work?
Bottom line is that the positives of my participation on this board out weigh the negatives, at least for now.
I read and post on several other message boards, some of them for years, and this one is unique. The posters are well-read, articulate, sensitive, funny, supportive, and the level of discourse to be found here matches or exceeds that of some graduate seminars I've taken. The fact that someone (and it's not always me ) can suggest a book and several people will go out and read it so we can discuss it is very unusual.
Most of the other boards I read are much more superficial and there is a lot of complaining. On other boards (that I read), posts are almost always very short and not very well thought out. Here, people will actually read a long post and reply to specific points. Heck, this doesn't happen all that often face to face.
The fact that this is in writing and not face to face does not negate the value of the experience. Throughout history, people have corresponded, poured their hearts out, shared feelings, developed relationships, etc. IN WRITING-- they just couldn't do it as fast as we can on the internet. The speed of response is one of the really gratifying things. I remember one day I checked in in the morning, looked around, and nothing much was happening-- when I came back in the afternoon, corri had posted something and there were over 50 responses! I love that.
Unless you've experienced the level of communication that goes on here, I think it might be easy to assume this is just an escape internet toy or something.
Having said all these positive things, I think it is a good idea to take a break from here from time to time. This is a place where we focus on problems, and you can kind of lose perspective.
But overall there is a lot of respect, caring, and affection in this group, and I consider this board an extremely positive element in my life. I've learned SOOOO much that I would never have learned in face to face conversations. It's all been good.
Ditto what Lil said. On the down side, I have noticed a couple times that there seems to be some group think happening on the board at times. When one person hits a roadblock, it isn't long before several others are also running into the same one, same for the good times.
The relative anonymity (that doesn't look right, I'm sure its not, but I'm too tired to figure out what it should be) of the bb makes it perhaps easier to be candid and completely honest about your sich. The SSM problems are something I'd have a difficult time talking about with coworkers, family or neighbors. Even if I got over the embarrassment, for a male, the typical response is give her a break, as though you are a complainer. Here it is comforting to know that others are in a similar sitch, and the more important thing is there are people here who have made some real positive changes. Those successes serve both as encouragement and as a model to look to when mapping your own journey. If the bb wasn't doing me good, I wouldn't be wasting my time here. That said, it is also good to take vacations from it.
Quote: I have noticed a couple times that there seems to be some group think happening on the board at times. When one person hits a roadblock, it isn't long before several others are also running into the same one
And all the women are probably having their periods at the same time. Except for me, of course-- I haven't had a period since March 1999.
Ditto the difficulty of talking to friends. If guys are told "just give her a break" then the reaction to women complaining about lack of sex is that you "need to lose weight, initiate sex, greet him at the door wearing saran wrap, etc." Here we find people who really DO understand what we're going through.
Quote: the reaction to women complaining about lack of sex is that you to initiate sex, greet him at the door wearing saran wrap, etc." Here we find people who really DO understand what we're going through.
You say this like it would be a bad thing...
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
So, in my first session with my C, she beat me over the head for about 20 minutes regarding this site. I can't remember all of her reasons but the general themes were something like the following.....
* All matters involving the "big 4" - your house, kids, intimacy and sex need to involve your partner which means no, 0, nada, zilch unilateral actions or decisions. Spending time on this site, unless you are at work, is an "opportunity-cost" of spending intimate time with your spouse.
26 - That is assuming that you and your spouse are together to spend intimate time with. In the cases of those of us who are separated that is not much of an issue.
* There are no boundaries or constraints here. In a group setting, you come in for an hour, discuss, then leave. Then it's just you, your spouse and the issues at hand with the pressure of a subsequent meeting where you have to be accountable to your C or peers (in a group C setting).
26 - Again if there is no spouse present dealing with any issues is a private matter. In many cases it appears to me that one spouse often refuses couseling anyway. How does the C or members of a "live" group hold you any more accountable? To meet for one hour and then forget about it does not seem to be accountability.
* There's no face-to-face connection or accountability from people who *truly* care about one another. A virtual non-face-to-face relationship, as much as it may seem "real" isn't. This lacks the non-verbal dynamics required to *see* into the souls of each other.
26 - If you think your counselor "truly" cares about you, try not paying the bill for awhile. Non-verbal dynamics of face to face meetings are just another of many possible dynamics. Some people will be more responsive to that kind of dynamic, some less so. Many people communicate more honestly and effectively while writing. Others dont. There is no one size fits all stategy in any of this. I would say that the people who derive the most benefit from this type of forum are the people who come here and stay here. If others find a greater benefit to another method then that is likely where they will gravitate too.
* And most difficult point she made was that "this site fuels fantasy". What does this mean? It's not sexual fantasy (like I initially thought she was implying) but rather fantasizing that my situation would become similar to someone else's or that my W would become like other people's spouses. IE. My focus becomes outward rather than inward and my introspection isn't in the context of my own marriage but someone elses. Stories of other people's success may initially provide hope but they will ultimately create anxiety. From reading other's posts (and books) I might say "hey...this might work" or "geez...my W would kill me if I tried that" or "I'm too scared to try that" or they may try it unsuccessfully. The bottom line regarding fantasy....it makes living in the moment very difficult (the living in the moment think is key to success with this).
26 - It seems to me that there needs to be focus inward and outward. It may be a fantasy to think that your marriage could be saved, that your relationship could be healthy again and better than ever, but is that so harmful? If not for that hope (fantasy) who would bother with any of it whether this BB or group counseling or anything else? This BB is just one of many tools at hand to try to get from A to B.
I tried the MC thing and it was the WORST thing that could have happened to us. He was a complete idiot. I was sure the m was over after that one session. Luckily my H could spot it too. We are working on DR together and having so much better results. THIS WEBSITE AND BB SAVED MY MARRIAGE!
MC have HUGE egos just like Doctors. If this is where you find answers, GO FOR IT! Don't let some idiot MC give you any psycho babble. Do what feels right.
I was so relieved to find other people in the same sich's. It gave me hope, gave me another point of view (other than my own emotional one.) It felt so good to have people identify with my sitch and give their opinions.
Look for the BB gurus. The ones with hundreds of postings if not thousands. If you can find - IamTJ - he's great. johnjames is awesome too.
You are doing the right thing by being here where we support each other, receive good advice and people really care. I agree with the last posting - don't pay your MC bill and see how much they care.
Don't generalize to all marriage counselors. Some are very good; some are not.
Not all plumbers are competent. Not all hairdressers are competent. Not all surgeons are competent. However some of all of those are brilliant. You have to shop around.
I think the people on this board do truly care for each other. At least I know I care for the people here.
My H would said he would NEVER go to a MC. I finally got him to go as a Last Ditch Effort. Like I said this guy was really bad. There is no way I could get him to go again, so unfortunately some of us don't have the opportunity to shop around, unless of course I want to go by myself.
That is why I said that the books, this website and bb worked for me. I can come here when a problem comes up and get quick responses. I don't have to wait a week until my next appointment (which the C was clock watching the whole time). To me, this is like having a MC 24/7. I can always find what I need here.
) can suggest a book and several people will go out and read it so we can discuss it is very unusual. 
Except for me, of course-- I haven't had a period since March 1999. 
