Alright, well I’ve gotten myself into a bit more muddy water in the past few weeks. First a little background on my sitch, as it’s been a long while since I posted: My W, 28 is having an EA with my cousin, 31, in Europe (we are in USA). Began around the beginning of the year.
We have a 4 Yr old together.
Early on in my situation, I did a lot of reading on the internet regarding affairs, and the first site I came upon advised exposing the A to people close to my W in an effort to pressure her by causing her to see the A as sordid, etc. – the way people she respects now are. I know, this is almost the polar opposite of DBing, but it’s what I was exposed to initially, and it makes sense in itself – although it seems to almost require separation to initiate reconciliation. I wrote to my Aunt and Uncle, and my father-in-law and his wife. I carefully laid out the situation without judgment, telling them that I love and respect my wife and that she was in the midst of a difficult time and their support for her (and the marriage) would be welcome. Well, this was a bomb at the time – but the cloud dissipated and cleared very quickly, or so it seemed.
Well, some time has gone by – we attempted MC, but it was not W’s intention to make anything work. I’m still going, but she’s only going to her own C. W’s biggest complaint about me seems to be that I’m too passive – that I don’t have enough drive or ambition – I’m not assertive enough. I’ve been working on this somewhat, but I’m not sure I agree with my W that this is a problem. I think of myself more as passive but strong. I get done what needs to be done without asserting myself just for the sake of machismo. Well, this is one place where DBing concerns me with regard to my W’s view of me, because my W already thinks I can accept and adapt to anything – traits I think are great to a certain extent – but where DBing can look like I’m ignoring the situation and not being assertive in any way. So I’m a little torn because I started on one path and then saw the benefit of DBing which tied in with the other philosophy in the day to day (self improvement, non-confrontational interaction, identifying and working on what ever issues in the relationship contributed to the A, etc.), but the action I already took in another vein says something different.
Another thing to make DBing harder: In response to my W asking for my permission and/or consent to go see my cousin I told my W that I had a boundary, at the advisement of my somewhat questionable C (who is very familiar with Michelle) that if she sees him I will remove myself from the situation to protect myself. I know that this is creating pressure and stress, but now that it’s been said, I don’t want to lose all credibility by rescinding my boundary (that she sees as an ultimatum – and I can understand why). Now she’s telling me that she is going to see him no matter what, so we might as well get a separation now because that’s what I want. Well, I assure her that I don’t want to separate at all, but I will remove myself from the triangle if need be. But for now, since the A is not my issue – and it is for her to figure out on her own, I would rather not continue discussing it, but would rather focus on the real issues and on being good parents together.
So here lies my predicament: how do I remove the stress and pressure on my W without ruining my credibility (which Michelle shows to be critical in her mention of the final ultimatum)? I’m not at any final ultimatum stage right now, but I don’t want to be reactionary. In fact, I wish I hadn’t made this boundary known – I would have rather acted on it if I felt the need to. But what’s done is done and I need some advice here. I want my wife to really feel free to figure this out on her own, and I’ve been living in accordance with DB, but these two issues speak opposite the everyday message I give her of respecting her space and her autonomy. I have never been viewed as controlling by her, but now she feels that I am seeking to control her through this boundary. It’s interesting because Michelle talks about changing something, anything, and I have in that I am clearly in opposition to her here when I normally would let her do whatever she wants.
It seems from her feedback that I should have just accepted that she is going to do what she is going to do and put up with whatever she does. Also when I read other people’s posts on this site I see people sitting tight and bearing with a spouse who’s in the midst of a PA, but I can’t help feeling that my W WANTS to see me be assertive in this situation. I know it’s a mixed up situation, but I appreciate any additional perspectives here. I don’t need anyone’s help in seeing how I screwed up to this point, because I think that’s pretty self evident, but ideas how to procede from here on out is helpful. Thanks in advance.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, I briefly reviewed your previous thread and it seems like there was a lot of "don't do that" coming from us and you ended up feeling misunderstood.
Anyway, I truly feel for you with the whole "W wants me to be more assertive" part. I think my W wants that from me too but as you said, that goes against the DB "way" for the most part, or at least it seems like it would. I contend that it doesn't have to. My W's primary complaint was not that I was too passive per-se, but passive/AGRESSIVE and that is the issue. I have taken steps to remove this trait from my daily life with SOME success.
The bottom line is that you have to learn to make decisions without mentally or REALLY checking in with her. I notice that at the end of the post, you say that "It seems from her feedback that I should have just accepted that she is going to do what she is going to do and put up with whatever she does." Who gives a damn what her perspective is.
I am being dramatic, but to make my point. I am not saying you stop caring what she feels, but to be assertive AND DB, i.e. accept certain things that would normally signify a passive stance on your part, you need to make decisions in a vacuum. You need to be clear in your decisions and follow through with them, living with their consequences, OR changing your mind, but doing it because YOU want to, not because SHE tells you that you should have.
If you really want her to be free to figure this out on her own, then YOU need to do the same. You don't need to condone nor condemn anything she does, just live YOUR life according to the way YOU want to live it, accepting that which you cannot control. You tried that route, the controlling one, and I don't think it worked too well. Try the other one now.
Like I said, you CAN be strong and STILL DB, it just requires you to be CRYSTAL clear in your words and actions, something judging from your previous thread and this post, you have not really been.
This is not to say it's easy, and that you won't make mistakes, but it IS to say that this is a long process and you need to start working for the long-term.
All I am talking about is a fundamental shift in your thinking from WWMWWTD (what would my wife want me to do) to just thinking about you and what YOU want to do.
Well, I have to say that I agree with what you are saying about truly being myself. I have made strides in trying not to "defer" to my W (even though I see it as consideration) and making decisions as I see fit. If she has a problem with that decision, she can speak up for herself. I think you're also right about not really being concerned with how she sees my actions. This is not an attempt to win her back, but to improve myself.
I guess I am getting trapped into fixating on the A again, as this particular point has my focus: her take on my boundary. This doesn't particularly matter to me in daily life. But to her, it is adding stress and pressure. She doesn't want to do anything without my consent here, because she really doesn't want this to be something final initiated by her, so she'll keep festering over this, adding to her stress level.
I think I have been pretty clear regarding my focus on myself and my life, but my communication with my W may have been a little inconsistant. I guess my real question to you, GH, is: do I have to rescind my stated boundary in order to stop being controlling? I truly feel that aside from that boundary, I have been very clearly allowing her the freedom to do as she pleases - up to the point where I'm almost enabling the A by sounding the alarm when I come home so she doesn't feel guilty talking to OM while I'm home.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I'm sorry you are in this situation and free advice is sometimes worth what you pay for it, so forgive me if anything I write is ultimately unhelpful.
When my wife started having an affair with her boss a year and a half ago, I had a similar dilemma (she claimed it was only an EA at that point, but I'm pretty sure it was a PA, too). My wife claimed that I lacked ambition because although I was making really good money and was very happy doing what I was doing, it wasn't enough for her own, subjective "corporate" standard, which seemed to have a bottomless expectation of income. She also thought that I was not being "aggressive" enough about "fighting for her." The first part was ridiculous and offensive to me, and it proved to be a difference between our core values; the second part was true, but mostly because I was following the prescribed DB path and she wasn't willing to stop the affair even while we were supposedly trying to work things out for the sake of our marriage and toddler. Thus, I DB'd and put up with this nonsense for half a year until I realized that the passive DB approach was only hurting me, but by then it was too late, and now we are just waiting to finalize our divorce.
This is not to say that Michele's books didn't help me in many other constructive ways, it's just that I think you have to carefully apply the information to your own situation, consider other sources of information, and accept the fact that whatever you do may not in the end change whether your marriage survives or dies.
I have to tell you that I have read many, many of the threads on these boards, and I see precious few posts from anyone who has had much success "riding out" an affair by not establishing reasonable boundaries like the one you mentioned, especially when the walk-away-wife tells the left-behind-husband that he isn't being "aggressive enough," or "man enough," etc., about fighting for her. I think it is hard for wives like this to have any respect for a husband that just passively sits there, day after day, hoping, and "validating," and "[supposedly] getting a life." In many cases, this sort of "look at me, I've changed!" stuff is viewed by the walk-away-wife as too-little-too-late or just plain pathetic--that is, even more repulsive.
And, no offense to anyone out there who is trying to save his or her marriage the best way he or she knows how (because marriage is a beautiful union worth preserving, even if the preservation demands a tremendous amount of pain and patience), but I think that some people get a little too carried away with some of the passive aspects of the DB approach to the point that they neglect to see the forest through the trees. Instead, and even though they are supposedly detaching and getting a life, many apparently turn into DB junkies, endlessly patting themselves on the back for surviving another day as a doormat and writing about every little glimmer of hope they get from a stray smile or comment from a wayward spouse that is regularly crossing town (or international waters) to hop into bed with an extra-marital lover.
In other words, your gut is probably telling you the truth: your wife probably DOES want you to be assertive and stand on your boundary. You don't have to be a jerk about it, just firm and respectful, the way it sounds you have been from the beginning.
In short, I don't think you should withdraw your ultimatum. If that stresses your wife, well, tough. She should be stressed because she is now forcing the issue by wanting to go see your cousin (and your cousin is a jerk for inserting himself into your marriage). I therefore think that you may actually be at some sort of an ultimatum even if you don't think you are.
If you do decide to separate, you (on your own) should immediately consult a family law attorney to find out how to protect yourself against all sorts of unexpected surprises if it turns out that you later get divorced.
Muddle, I'll agree with GH that you have to DB from a position of strength. I've recently come around to realizing that a lot of us men are losing our W's because they lose attraction for us when we aren't manly enough. If you think that might be you, then you may want to buy David Cunningham's book at www.makingherhappy.com It's $40, and a lot of his "116 pages" are somewhat repetitive, but I believe that he has a few really good ideas. You can also glean a lot of his wisdom (for free) on his email archives . I really think it's helping me in my sitch, and I feel much more confident now, DB'ing from a position of strength.
Now, what does that mean about your ultimatum? I think you should probably keep it -- you can DB while separated (I and many others on this board are doing it). If you do back off, it can't look like you're backing off, and you have to find a way to do it from a position of strength. You absolutely cannot let her see you as giving in to her desire for your cousin -- she will lose her remaining respect for you.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
This is not to say that Michele's books didn't help me in many other constructive ways, it's just that I think you have to carefully apply the information to your own situation, consider other sources of information, and accept the fact that whatever you do may not in the end change whether your marriage survives or dies.
This about says it all. I think, as I have said MANY times that you DO need to read all you can and consider many sources BUT, when it comes time for action, and DB IS ACTION, you need to make sure that you aren't constantly flip-flopping between ultimatums and being "passive" as you say. If there is one common problem I see here MUCH more than people being doormats, it's that they don't stay on ANY path for more than a couple days, let alone enough time for anything positive to happen because of their ACTIONS.
It's WAY too late for a debate but I have a little more in me. Suffice it to say that I am probably one of those "DB" junkies and I have not lived one day as a doormat. I have had a REALLY positive experience following the DB ways of doing this and my W WAS one of those that said she wanted me to be more assertive and stand up for myself. She has since admitted that what she's seen me do, pull back my emotions, STOP talking all the time, and just DO what I NEEDED to do for ME, has impressed her much more than constantly ranting and raving. She has also said that if I "laid down the law" so to speak and made a bunch of ultimatums instead of taking the approach I did, she would have been gone long ago. Point is that DB/DR works for me and one thing it has done for me is given me the tools to take control over MY life and that to me is what being assertive and "in control", that women seem to like, is all about. I am a man in charge of his own life, and that is something that will NEVER be taken away from me again.
So, will my marriage survive? I don't know, but what I do know is that it stands a much better chance of it now, after DB, than before, or without DB. I am a MUCH stronger man now, and that's all through the "passive" DB ideas that I started down this path following. I also know that I am a HELL of a lot closer to a reconciled marriage now that I was 6 months ago...4 1/2 of which my W continued the affair. Call me a doormat, call me what you will but I KNOW the strength and ACTION it took me to get to this point and I sure as hell would rather have people judge me "soft" and have a marriage than be branded a "real man" and not have my marriage. I am totally secure in the man I am and really don't care much about what someone thinks of my methods. That is NOT something I could have said 6 months...or even 6 years ago.
In the end, this "passive" label you put on DB is really just another way of saying that we accept that we have no control, nor do we WANT control over our spouses. I want my W to be with me because she WANTS to be, not because I threatened her with a bitter divorce, seperation, custody battle or financial hardship. If that is passive, then I am Ghandi.
I am 100% sure that DB will NOT work for every situation in terms of saving the marriage and I am also 100% sure that SOME marriages may be saved by heavy handed tactics. It's up to each individual to decide what path is right for them.
Thanks all for your responses – all very well thought out and thought provoking. I also like that this has sparked what looks to me like a valuable debate.
It seems to me that if DBing's somewhat passive nature can be viewed by a WAS as a form of begging or pleading, there is little to no benefit, with the exception of the benefit to the BAS (as long as the self exploration and changes being made are genuinely for them self).
I am sure that the ultimate point of GAL, etc., is to TRULY lead a fulfilling life, thereby building and demonstrating self confidence and self esteem. Someone with the above does not try and prove they are great or worthy of a spouse's love - they know it. Someone in an A is likely having some SERIOUS self esteem issues, at least in my case I see this as a primary reason for it, and having someone that is hanging around begging for your attention, love and respect in some form or another is only going to play into the inflation of this false self esteem generated by the A. I once saw someone post on one of these boards that the most sure way to deal with an A is to react to it with an ultimatum: "if you want me, then stop, otherwise I'll move on." This approach DEMANDS respect. This is, however, totally contrary to what a BAS feels in the moment, and it is in a sense what is being done to us. I think the best thing that can be done is to cause the WAS to doubt their worth (difficult because they have 2 people after them) and cause them to become introspective and look at their lives with a critical eye.
Now, being heavy handed in itself can be seen as begging also. Being heavy handed without exuding the self confidence to back up the words is pointless. So, there's no doubt in my mind that an important element, if not the most important element, of the position of a BAS fighting for the M is to be sure of their self worth and where they stand. This confidence is the foundation of any good relationship, as well as giving the BAS a consistent direction to push in. If it need be shown in ultimatums, than I suppose it should be. More often than not it’s not about the words being said, but what is being said under it all.
When it comes down to it, the state of the M led to the A, but the person who CHOSE the A is the one who has to deal with it. They have to come to view it for what it is, realize it's a problem and figure out how to proceed. Our big wake-up here is to realize this. We can't control this process, or even influence it positively in any meaningful way. We can, however, recognize that we have as much control over our own lives as they have over theirs. So, no there’s no need to be PASSIVE per se – just understand what you are in control of and confidently move forward with your own life.
Now, I didn’t really address my sitch. I am not going to change my stance. I committed some time back that I wouldn’t allow myself to be motivated by fear. I love my wife and my family, but I love myself too much to continue to subjugate my desire for a fulfilling life to her desire to escape hers in this fantasy. These desires can only coexist for so long, and by moving things along on my schedule, I can be in control of my own life. Freedom can have consequences - even if I'm the one imposing them.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
It seems to me that if DBing's somewhat passive nature can be viewed by a WAS as a form of begging or pleading, there is little to no benefit, with the exception of the benefit to the BAS (as long as the self exploration and changes being made are genuinely for them self).
I can't understand how DBing can be seen as begging or pleading. DB is TOTALLY opposite of that. It seems like you are set, as you were before, on doing things in a way that is contrary to DB, or your perception of it. That's fine, but understand that when you ask for advice from us here, you will get advice based on DB, which is too "passive" for your sitch.
Like I said, claiming that DB in ANY way is akin to begging and pleading demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding, at least from my perspective, of what is advocated by DB but I submit that each of us needs to interpret the information we gather in our own way. You and I obviously will have to agree to disagree on the fundamental nature of DB.
I do hope you find success. I think you sound like you have a really good head on your shoulders and a solid plan that you are committed to. As I said, sometimes knowing what you want and having the fortitude to actually STICK to that is worth it's weight in gold.
GH, I find it interesting that you see it this way. I am actually supporting DB, not attacking it. I guess I'm not articulating my thoughts very well. I am stating here that IF what we do in DBing can appear to the WAS like a strategy, it becomes begging or pleading but in a more subtle way. "Honey, I'm changing so you'll come back to me, can't you see?" I think that DBing is only really effective when one is clear that they are not involving themselves in the decision making process about the A. You will not influence it, except in a negative way - making it last longer.
I am not saying that I think that DBing is passive - actually I am quite clear that it is an active process. An A will most likely end on its own - so you could very well just sit back and wait, but we choose to act, bettering ourselves in the process. I think part of this process is to make sure we aren't lowering our standards for our lives and our Ms by accepting what our WASs are doing as right, only accepting that they are doing it by themselves, as autonomous people.
I guess I have come across as being critical again of the philosophy in its entirety, which was not my intention, and couldn’t be farther from the truth. I wouldn’t still be here, and I certainly wouldn’t value opinions shared on this board if that was the case. Perhaps I am interpreting the DB method in a way that is both different AND wrong (at least as far as Michelle intended it) – that certainly is a possibility and is up for debate. If I strengthen my position or change it entirely as a result of said debate, I’ll only be better off for it. I always appreciate your time and input, GH, even if I don’t agree with everything you say (which is rare).
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
