From a book called "Arousal: the Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies" by Dr. Michael J. Bader. Closely reasoned presentation of the connection between childhood emotional safety and adult emotional problems. Even if you don't agree with every single chain in this reasoning process (and I'm not sure I do), stick with it; 99 percent of it makes a lot of sense.
Quote: Safety: The Rosetta Stone of Psychological Life
Safety is the crucial concept needed to decipher the mysteries of sexual passion. Safety is the concept that functions as the key to unlocking the meaning of our fantasies, a kind of Rosetta stone guiding our attempts to translate the language of physical arousal into the language of psychological meanings. The quest for psychological safety is at the center of psychological life. And, as we will see, the unconscious mind is primarily concerned with ensuring our safety. <I'd like to see some backup to this premise... but let's move on...> Since our unconscious minds are continually working to help us pursue our aims in the safest way possible, and since sexual pleasure is one of our primary aims as adults, we need to look below the psychological surface in order to understand the twists and turns through which our minds lead us in the pursuit of fulfillment and excitement. [snip]
The unconscious management of psychological safety does not begin with the onset of mature sexual desires. It begins in childhood, almost from the moment of birth. As research now tells us, the newborn baby is wired to form an attachment to its mother. The baby can recognize the mother’s particular voice and face and prefers them over all other voices and faces. Evolution has guaranteed that the baby has the ability and desire to connect to the human being most able to help it survive. Furthermore, our brains and psychological natures are primed to make us love those people who are responsible for our well-being. W[As babies] we become attached, and we fall in love. Without such attachment, psychological research has shown that babies become frantic, disorganized, and depressed. A secure attachment is crucial to healthy human psychological development.
If a secure attachment to a caregiver is crucial to psychological survival, how do we ensure that we keep one? The answer lies in our unconscious ability to read our family environments and to adapt to those environments—to be willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that our parents love and protect us. We bring to this task our intuitive sensitivity and our highly refined ability to sense the moods of our parents and to do whatever is needed in order to stay connected to them. Loving our parent makes us want to do the very thing that we need to do—make our parents happy and avoid a rupture in our bond to them.
When we talk about the need to maintain a secure attachment to our caretakers, we are talking about psychological safety. An insecure attachment produces feelings of danger. When a parent becomes angry, intrusive, neglectful, or rejecting, the feeling of secure attachment is threatened, and the child experiences anxiety. Similarly, when a parent appears weak, anxious, or unhappy, the child also registers danger. The child will do pretty much anything to avoid perpetuating these situations and to reestablish conditions of safety. The child’s mind isn’t necessarily even consciously registering these dangers. The child experiences danger on an intuitive level, quickly associating the loss of a parent, or of that parents love and protection, with a “bad” feeling.
While we may intuit all sorts of things about the emotional state of our parents, always alert to disruptions in relationships with them and highly motivated to repair them, how can we, as little helpless, children, repair anything? The answer is by changing ourselves. The only things that we have control over are our own thoughts and feelings. <And of course, actions. This is the genesis of the Identity System that Block talks about.>
A wide range of such thoughts and feelings are available for changing. As children we all need not only to connect with our parents, but also to progressively to separate from them. We have a need to be admired, the center of our parents’ lives; we also need to feel increasingly competent and strong in our ability to overcome obstacles and master challenges. We eventually want to feel able to compete confidently but also to take pleasure in affiliating with peers. As we develop, we will seek—and need—a special acknowledgment for our masculinity and femininity, a sense that our “girlness” and “boyness” are recognized and appreciated by our parents. We need to feel that we can have an effect on our parents, that our needs are important, but we also need to feel that our parents can maintain their own boundaries and interests in spite of whatever we might demand, We need to have parents we can admire and proudly identify with, to have happy parents who love themselves and each other. <If we "needed" to have all of these things from our parents, then I am WAY screwed...>
People have many needs. None of them can ever be met perfectly, but all remain with us, animating our psychological development. However, all of these needs are expendable in the service of the need for psychological safety. If we can avoid or repair a rupture in our relationships with our parents by suppressing or altering our feelings, desires, and even our perceptions, we will do it instinctively, naturally and without conscious thought. <Hello, Identity System!>
We adapt. Consider a child’s experience of parental neglect. Can the child think, “Well, my parents are going through a tough time because Dad lost his job and Mom is an alcoholic. It has nothing to do with me. I’ll be able to feel nurtured and appreciated elsewhere in the world”? Obviously not. The child doesn’t know any reality other than the one that his or her family creates. The child can’t just pick up and go live with another family. He or she has to make it "right"—to make the environment seem more normal in order to adapt successfully and safely to it. We develop a belief that deprivation is the normal state of affairs.
We also go one crucial step farther: we experience reality as if it were also morality. We begin to believe that any wish for special caretaking and love is forbidden, off-limits, as if it meant asking for too much, for something we aren’t supposed to have. We not only have to accept neglect, but we must make it seem as if the fault lies with us, not with out parents. It’s not that our parents can’t give; it’s that we need too much.
A patient, Mark, recently told me in his first session that he felt misunderstood and unappreciated by his wife, but he never told her because he felt guilty for wanting something inappropriate. He said his wife had enough on her hands taking care of their three children. He later remembered that his mother had always seemed similarly overwhelmed, and that, although he was lonely as a child, he often felt guilty about being too needy. Mark blamed himself for feeling neglected.
Why would a child develop such an irrational and self-defeating belief, a belief psychoanalyst Joseph Weiss terms pathogenic, because it clearly works against the child’s healthy aims and interests? <Note the definition of the term “pathogenic”—“irrational and self-defeating belief”; he uses it a lot.> The reason is to maintain the authority and virtue of our parents and, therefore, the safety of our relationship with them. It is well-known that abused children regularly refuse to condemn their abusive parents. Instead, they condemn themselves. With their parents safely exonerated, children are relieved of worry about the security of these relationships. It is said that most people would rather be sinners in heaven than saints in hell, continually excusing their parents, taking responsibility for their own mistreatment, and developing private unconscious theories to justify it. It is as if the child is unconsciously saying, “It’s all right… I don’t want much anyway. In fact, I probably don’t even deserve it. It’s not your fault; it’s mine.”
<Skipping some stuff here… heck, I have to leave something out! And please remember, most of this process is UNCONSCIOUS, i.e. completely outside of conscious awareness.>
Experiences like these give rise to pathological beliefs that predict that if we pursue our aims, we will endanger our connections to our parents or otherwise threaten our psychological safety. We will somehow hurt them, or they will hurt us. Either way, we lose. Pathogenic beliefs cause psychological problems. Normal goals or developmental aims are sacrificed in order to preserve, maintain, and defend our relationship with our parents and their later proxies <i.e. our Significant Others>.
The trouble with pathogenic beliefs is that they are difficult to change. Highly adaptive at the time they are formed, these beliefs interfere with our lives. However, to give up these beliefs exposes us to the risk of being disconnected from our caregivers or being hurt by them. Consider the following common pattern: We grow up with the pathogenic belief that we are undeserving of love. Someone then comes along and loves us. Are we likely to see, accept, or value this positive turn of events? No. Instead, we give great weight to negative messages that mirror our self-criticisms and discount positive ones that might contradict these same criticisms. Because we tend to discredit evidence that contradicts our beliefs and overvalue evidence that confirms them, pathogenic beliefs are circular and self-reinforcing. This is why they persist into adult life. <Can anyone say: "Hamster Wheel"?>[snip]
Such beliefs begin in childhood and often persist unchanged into adult life. Once these beliefs begin guiding our behavior, we simply take them as the way we—and the world—naturally function. We don’t think I’m irrationally experiencing my spouse and friends as if they were my parents. We operate according to the unspoken and unconscious assumption that the similarity between the past and present is true. Only if we are particularly psychologically insightful or have the benefit of therapy <Or participate in the SSM board! > can most of us consciously appreciate the extent to which our present experience of the world repeats our past.
While pathogenic beliefs originally targeted dimensions of psychological life other than sex, the desire for sexual pleasure is also present in some form in childhood. Children obviously feel physical pleasure, and it is well-known that this pleasure is sometimes connected to genital stimulation. Once experienced, such pleasure is sought over and over again. Unfortunately, sexual excitement is loaded with taboos in our culture and is inevitably fraught with conflict and complications. It is no wonder, then that to a human mind in which psychological safety is such a primary goal, sexual arousal should present a particular challenge.
He goes on to talk about how pathogenic beliefs from childhood inhibit us from behaving with what he calls "sexual ruthlessness," (not a very good term-- a better term would be "sexual self-interest") whereby we are free to expose ourselves fully and seek our own sexual pleasure openly while connected to our partner. He's saying we hide our needs (because of the stuff in the quote above) and feel that we need to protect our partner from what feel like are our overwhelming needs and desires. In short, we're afraid we need too much, want too much, and that we will overwhelm our partner and either disgust them, cause them to reject us, or actually cause them to leave. The "safety" issue is key, because it means we have to feel that when we come out of hiding, we will be welcomed by our partner or we won't come out. Period. Our partner may indeed BE welcoming, but the pathogenic beliefs from childhood, because of their self-reinforcing nature, will cause us to discount our partner's reassurances.
What I read in "Come to Your Senses" last week was a way to shortcut this process. It was a way to get in contact with the deep knowledge inside of oneself that the partner's rejection or seeming rejection could not damage us in the present the way our parents' rejection caused us to imagine we were damaged and to create the Identity System in the past. The Identity System is a false self that we created to feel safe. It contains "requirements" for our safety. When one of those "requirements" is violated, we feel threatened at the core of our being and believe that we must fix the situation or we simply cannot tolerate it. When I was in the Zone <sigh> I was in contact with the certain knowledge that my Identity System and the meeting of its requirements were unnecessary to my life, happiness, and sense of being loved.
Still trying to get back there... looking for the Secret Door in the Wall...
Re lil. If we "needed" to have all of these things from our parents, then I am WAY screwed...
Lil, lots of people did not get much from their parents, but learned to live a good life. It's doable. Yes I have FOO issues but it's me that needs changing. I can't do anything to change yesterday.
Nice tie-in ( Safety: The Rosetta Stone of Psychological Life) to the "Come to Your Senses" book.
My copy of "Come to Your Senses" just arrived. When I finish the kitchen tile work, I will start reading the book. Looks like Saturday or Sunday for now.
It occurred to me this evening that I owe you an apology and a thank you. The apology will have to wait because I'm unable to decide what it is I need to apologize for. Basically, I want to apologize for being harsh toward you. But then something goes off in my mind saying, "I don't think you were really harsh with her," and I don't really disagree with that. So maybe it's more that I wasn't helpful. Though I believed in the content of what I said, I'm not sure I believed it would actually be helpful to say it. I'll ponder this some more in hopes that something more useful will congeal.
I owe you my thanks because when my marriage and my world was crumbling around me and resisted my best rebuilding efforts I searched for ideas and philosophies that would help my emotional state. Some of the concepts I ran across were very helpful, such as practicing compassion and embracing groundlessness. For various reasons, however, I back burnered those practices. As my situation became more resolved (or has at least given me that illusion) I have felt little need to return to them. But a couple of things you have written:
"I just want to feel better more of the time."
"Still trying to get back there... looking for the Secret Door in the Wall..."
...made me realize its time for me to revisit those theories. A great many of them came from two books:
The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama and Howard Cutler, and When Things Fall Apart : Heart Advice for Difficult Times by Pema Chodron
This is a blurb from the second book that illustrates a bit of what I'm rethinking:
I read somewhere about a family who had only one son. They were very poor. This son was extremely precious to them, and the only thing that mattered to his family was that he bring them some financial support and prestige. Then he was thrown from a horse and crippled. It seemed like the end of their lives. Two weeks after that, the army came into the village and took away all the healthy, strong men to fight in the war, and this young man was allowed to stay behind and take care of his family.
Life is like that. We don't know anything. We call something bad; we call it good. But really we just don't know.
When things fall apart and we're on the verge of we know not what, the test for each of us is to stay on that brink and not concretize. The spiritual journey is not about heaven and finally getting to a place that's really swell. In fact, that way of looking at things is what keeps us miserable. Thinking that we can find some lasting pleasure and avoid pain is what in Buddhism is called samsara, a hopeless cycles that goes round and round endlessly and causes us to suffer greatly. The very first noble truth of the Buddha points out that suffering is inevitable for human beings as long as we believe that things last -- that they don't disintegrate, that they can be counted on to satisfy our hunger for security. From this point of view, the only time we ever know what's really going on is when the rug's been pulled out and we can't find anywhere to land. We use these situations either to wake ourselves up or to put ourselves to sleep. Right now -- in the very instant of groundlessness -- is the seed of taking care of those who need our care and of discovering our goodness.
I remember so vividly a day in early spring when my whole reality gave out on me. Although it was before I had heard any Buddhist teachings, it was what some would call a genuine spiritual experience. It happened when my husband told me he was having an affair. We lived in northern New Mexico. I was standing in front of our adobe house drinking a cup of tea. I heard the car drive up and the door bang shut. Then he walked around the corner, and without warning he told me that he was having an affair and he wanted a divorce.
I remember the sky and how huge it was. I remember the sound of the river and the steam rising up from my tea. There was no time, no thought, there was nothing -- just the light and a profound, limitless stillness. Then I regrouped and picked up a stone and threw it at him.
When anyone asks me how I got involved in Buddhism, I always say it was because I was so angry with my husband. The truth is that he saved my life. When that marriage fell apart, I tried hard -- very, very hard -- to go back to some kind of comfort, some kind of security, some kind of familiar resting place. Fortunately for me, I could never pull it off. Instinctively I knew that annihilation of my old dependent, clinging self was the only way to go. That's when I pinned that sign up on my wall.
Life is a good teacher and a good friend. Things are always in transition, if we could only realize it. Nothing ever sums itself up in the way that we like to dream about. The off-center, in-between state is an ideal situation, a situation in which we don't get caught and we can open our hearts and minds beyond limit. It's a very tender, nonaggressive, open-ended state of affairs.
To stay with that shakiness -- to stay with a broken heart, with a rumbling stomach, with the feeling of hopelessness and wanting to get revenge -- that is the path of true awakening. Sticking with that uncertainty, getting the knack of relaxing in the midst of chaos, learning not to panic -- this is the spiritual path. Getting the knack of catching ourselves, of gently and compassionately catching ourselves, is the path of the warrior. We catch ourselves one zillion times as once again, whether we like it or not, we harden into resentment, bitterness, righteous indignation -- harden in any way, even into a sense of relief, a sense of inspiration.
That's not the best or even the most appropriate part of the book, it's just what struck me tonight.
I hope things are going well for you, Lil, and at the very least I apologize to you for hardening at your expense.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Thanks for your post, B, and for that quote, especially this part
Quote: To stay with that shakiness -- to stay with a broken heart, with a rumbling stomach, with the feeling of hopelessness and wanting to get revenge -- that is the path of true awakening. Sticking with that uncertainty, getting the knack of relaxing in the midst of chaos, learning not to panic -- this is the spiritual path. Getting the knack of catching ourselves, of gently and compassionately catching ourselves, is the path of the warrior. We catch ourselves one zillion times as once again, whether we like it or not, we harden into resentment, bitterness, righteous indignation -- harden in any way, even into a sense of relief, a sense of inspiration.
Thanks for the supportive comments, Lou and hairdog, over on bunny's thread.
Lou, how did you like the book? Did you find the point of view useful? I still cannot find my way back to that serene place where I was. You asked if it was my depressor who was predicting a dire future. Well, I was actually quoting my bf... let me try to convey the bizarre nature of the conversation we had the other night. You know, some of the people on this board-- that is some of the absent partners-- seem, from the descriptions of their spouses, to be ordinary people who are troubled, maybe depressed, frightened, stuck in old patterns. In fact, the majority of the absent partners come across to me that way. Lou, your BB seems like a pretty normal person who is acting the way SHE thinks an Older Woman should be. It's like she's following a pattern that she saw growing up, and sees no reason to or possibility of change. I could be all wrong, but that's the way it looks.
And then OTOH there are some partners who come across from their spouse's description, as truly disconnected with reality. Now I know we don't diagnose here, and I know we've not met these people in person... so I want to make sure to make those disclaimers... but for instance, Mrs. hairdog just seems to be twisted. I scarcely recognize any benevolence from her to hairdog and when there is some kindness, it seems to be random and not related to anything he did or didn't do. She claims it's because of him, but I don't see it. Also heather's husband... to keep her out of the bed for two years and to keep punishing her-- to me that is way outside the bounds of reasonable behavior. Both of these spouses are hurting themselves as much with their cruel distancing behavior as they are their spouses.
That brings us to my bf. This is what I cannot figure out and what I have not been able to figure out since shortly after we got together (four years ago in August): is it him or is it me? Is he crazy. Is he mentally disturbed. Does he just do a pretty good job of masquerading as a functional person, or is he nuts. OR: am I nuts?
We had a conversation night before last like conversations we used to have when he was drinking. On the evening prior to that evening, he had done several times this thing that makes me crazy. He challenges basically everything that comes out of my mouth. If I were to say the sky was blue, he would say, "well, it's more of an azure." It's like those people who cannot resist correcting every little grammatical error that you make. He does this a lot, and I try to look at the up-side of it, which is that he does listen carefully to everything I say. My late husband listened but you wouldn't know it, because he often didn't make even an acknowledging noise. So to have someone really really listen and evaluate my comments is most of the time a good thing. (Y'all know how much I want to be understood.) And if there is some technical thing that I've gotten wrong, okay, then correct me. If I meant clutch but said brake, then fine-- tell me. But this night, it was every little thing. I was already really stressed about the loss of my computer (and he was a huge help in fixing and restoring it, although I did 99% of it myself, including plugging in my new internal hard drive <ahem!>). So I said something like, "I wish you wouldn't challenge every little thing I say, especially when it's something that doesn't really matter." (I had made some comment about needing to take mosquito repellant to this conference I'm going to in July, because there were always mosquitos there, and instead of just agreeing that that was a good idea, he corrected some part of what I said... anyway, this tale is long enough already.) He said, "So, you just want me to agree with you whether I really do or not. Let me get this straight. I should just listen and agree no matter what you say?"
I said, "I'm not making a rule, I'm just telling you how it feels when you challenge me over and over. Most of the time I can just blow it off and many times it makes sense, but today it was just too much."
I'm not conveying the true tone of this exchange. He was immediately very angry and defensive. As he got this way, I retreated and got that helpless "here we go again" feeling. When I state any negative feelings he tries to make it into a rule about how he now must behave, an unreasonable rule that I'm imposing on him. I can't convey this with out a word for word transcript of what was said. But please take my word for it. I'm making his side of this sound much more rational than it was.
Anyway, as I was trying to express what I was feeling, he kept interrupting me, defensively, angrily, escalating his tone of voice. I was also getting angry, and at one point when he interrupted me yet again before I could convey my thought fully, I said, "Wait, *I'm* talking now." Then he just exploded. He was holding a pill bottle and he threw it. It hit my arm. We were at opposite ends of a hallway, about 20 feet away from each other. I know he didn't throw it AT me, but he threw it in my direction. It stung. Then he slammed out the door. I went and sat on the sofa, thinking, "I knew that if I brought up how that constant challenging bothers me sometimes, he would not give my POV any credibility." I had been trying to think of how I could bring it up, but there is no way for me to bring up my feelings, needs, wants, without him getting really defensive (a la Mrs. hairdog, and I suspect, Mrs. cobra. Aside: I think the others on this board are suggesting that cobra treat his W as if she is a normal functioning human being in touch with reality because THEIR spouses are reasonable and will eventually listen to reason. But I think Mrs cobra is nuts like my bf, and the other spouses I mentioned above. Reason and calm rational loving behavior does not work with these people if they're in a "state.")
To make a long story longer, he called on the cell phone a few minutes later and said, "Wow. What just happened there?" He did NOT apologize-- he rarely apologizes. I said, "If you'd like to come in the house and talk to me, please do." He hung up. About half an hour later he called me from the Mexican restaurant where we were going to have dinner and said, very sweetly, "The girls (his daughters) are coming for dinner. Do you want to join us? We have a place for you?" I said no, I was still waiting for UPS with my new hard drive (which did eventually come around 7 pm- YAY! God bless New Egg!).
Later he came home and he did apologize for hitting me with the bottle. He said he did not mean to hit me he just meant to throw it. We started to have this conversation that was soooo odd. I'm not going to get all the details exact, but bear with me.
I said, "Right now I feel very discouraged about where we are headed. We have been moving farther apart. I want to talk to you about stuff, but there never seems to be a good time. First there was the girls' graduation, then you have stuff with your mom [she runs a bar, so she calls most nights after midnight to discuss her maintenance, customer, financial, etc. problems with him], I know you're struggling with job stuff [he works strictly on commission and lately has been getting less than $100 per week because he doesn't get paid until the customer pays]... I can't seem to find the right moment to bring up stuff that's on my mind."
His reply conveyed that he attributed my being on edge entirely to the computer crash and he noticed that since that happened a few days before I had been short-tempered.
I said, "Well that did make me more edgy, but there are other things that have been building up, too. [then I took a deep breath and plunged in] Last August I told you that I could not stay in a relationship forever with no physical affection. I told you that I would not do anything drastic until after the girls graduated, because I didn't want to put them through a break-up, but now they have graduated, and we're coming up on a year since I made that statement. I don't feel like we've made any progress in that department, and I don't know what to do. I've been reading everything I can get my hands on trying to find something to give me hope, and I've come across this book called 'Peace Between the Sheets' that talks about sex with lots of emotional closeness without making the orgasm the be all and end all. I think if we tried that we could establish more closeness and I'd be happier." [I cited a couple of recent examples of distancing, like one where I had been fondling him in the morning, and he replied with, "Have you made any coffee yet?" Other times when he did what seemed like direct blatant rejection of me. He looked puzzled and incredulous during these examples.]
That's the gist of what I said, and it was a clean, clear, non-threatening and serious as I could make it.
Right away he pounced on the one-year thing. He took that as an ultimatum and a threat and told me that he doesn't respond to threats.
"Besides," I said, "How else can I convey to you how serious this is to me?"
He said, "I know it's serious to you."
I said, "You mean all along you've know that this is important and serious? Then why haven't you done anything? Why has it been months since you've reached out for me?"
He had no answer, but he said that basically what I was telling him was that if HE doesn't shape up, I'm leaving. Pure and simple.
I said it's more of a goal-setting thing or a milestone thing. I said that after my husband died, I felt so awful and I told people, "I don't want to be feeling this bad in a year." It gave me something to work toward.
But he wouldn't admit any other interpretation or modification of that statement. Period. By expressing a desire for a change in an important part of our R, I'm making demands, pushing the "never enough" button, issuing an ultimatum and a threat. Period. And he doesn't respond to threats. Stalemate.
So I tried a different approach. I asked him if he was satisfied with the level of physical interaction in our R. He could not answer that question directly. He deflected over and over again, bringing it back to me, "well YOU'RE not satisfied." He said, "We hug every day." That blew my mind. Yes, we do have a standing-up, fully clothed hug on most days. It is a real hug, full body contact, almost what Schnarch calls "hugging til relaxed." It's very nice. I like it. It doesn't constitute a sex life. He seems to think it does. He basically said that that is enough for him. He is satisfied. If things stayed the way they are right now, he would be okay. He is content. *I'M* the one for whom "it's never enough."
This part of the convo went on and on and on. Always back to me: I'M the one who's bitching and moaning. He's fine with things. (7's run from pain-- they deflect and distract and convince themselves that everything is fine, except possibly, for one small thing that can be easily fixed-- the Ace in the Hole.)
After more wooing and wheedling on my part, I finally got him to agree to the statement, "I would be okay if things were better in the sex department." Finally! I said, "Let's just go with that statement, because we can both agree on it: 'it would be okay if things were better.'"
Ladies and gentlemen, it took a good two hours to get to that statement."It would be okay if things were better." That was the most he would allow. We didn't get one millimeter beyond that, but we did get THAT far, at least.
THEN he did this thing that he used to do all the time and hasn't done in a while. He even used to do it in front of this one therapist we went to. I call it Turning on the Fog Machine. I wish I could convey the Cuckoo's Nest tone of this kind of talk. The closest I can come (and a thousand apologies to Mojo for this), but it reminds me of some of the really, really elaborate metaphors that Mojo sometimes constructs. Mojo, 99% of the time I love your metaphors and "get" them, and I use metaphors a lot, too (in fact, early in our R, my bf accused me of talking down to him and "dumbing down" my conversation when I used metaphors a lot as though he couldn't understand "straight talk"-- THAT was a Red Flag I ignored... there were SOOOOOO many-- my bad), but every now and then one of your metaphors will just wander off the tracks into the sunset. (and yes, *I* know that it can take me a long time to get to the point, too).
For example, I might say something simple like "I'd like us to be having more regular naked interaction by a year from now."
He might respond with something like, "Well, there are so many things to take into account. I could be dead in a year. I could be dead 30 seconds from now. I could have moved to Mars in a week. There's no way of saying what might happen in the next minute, let alone tomorrow, next week, next month, or six months from now. I don't have the faintest idea what is going to be going on in my life in the next thirty seconds, but you apparently have the ability to predict exactly what you want to be doing, where you want to be sitting, what you want to be eating, what you want to be wearing, what kind of car you want to be driving, what you want to have on the tv, what team you want to be in the NBA finals, how the weather should be, who should be president, how the furniture should be arranged at every minute in your future. I can't make those kinds of predictions. I don't have that kind of control. This is a really complicated subject and it's huge, really. I mean when you look at a car on the road, you have to remember that there's the engine and it's made up of lots of parts. Then there is the electrical system, and the tires. And all of those parts started somewhere else, in factories. Sometimes in other countries. The had to be designed, and assembled, and shipped to wherever they needed to be. And there were all the raw materials. Some farmer on a rubber plantation down in South America. And what if on a Monday the guy who was putting together the seatbelt assembly had a headache or a hangover. Then when you're driving, your life is in danger, and you don't even know it."
I'm not kidding... when he starts talking this way... it just goes on and on, he uses example after example. After the car metaphor, he might then launch (in the same paragraph) into building an airplane, and run through those components, and then maybe a stereo system... this would go on and on. Woe to me if I interrupt. But usually after we've run through several industries, I'll say "get to the point," and he'll say with a raised voice, "Well, the POINT is, this is very complicated, and you don't see how complicated it is."
He used to do a LOT of this when he was drinking. He hasn't done it in a while, and I think it's mostly because I avoid deep subjects. I remember that when I first met him, one of the words I used to describe him was "bombastic." That is the tone of this type of discourse: "bombastic."
<sigh> Where was I?
The convo died down, having gone basically nowhere. I said, "Usually at the end of one of these long relationship talks, I like to feel closer, more tenderness, some sweetness, some sense of connection. But I don't. I feel dry and weary."
Somewhere in here, he let the shields down a bit, and then he finally came out of the bushes.[The trumpets and cymbals die away and the strings pick up in the background.] Rather than quote exactly what he said, I'll say what he, in effect, told me. He is an addict. He struggles every day with the demon of his addiction. Every day, every minute is a struggle. He tries to keep me happy. He tries to keep his mom happy. He tries to keep the girls happy. His house is a wreck, he's behind on bills, he's not getting paid at work (some weeks he doesn't get a paycheck at all-- his mom gives him money, I don't). His work with his therapist is saving his life, but he's only taking baby steps at this point. Now this part is a quote, and it shows that he CAN be crystal clear when he turns off the fog machine! (and it's making me cry just to remember it): "As for when it might be better, I don't know. You've been so patient, more than anyone should have to be. I've asked more of you than anyone should ask of anyone else. And now I'm asking for more patience. But if you can't give me any more, I understand."
[The strings reach a crescendo-- pause abruptly.... then a lone oboe starts softly.]
I said, "If we can have more physical interaction. If I can share with you some of the ideas in this book, and we can be closer physically, I think it would be healing for both of us. I miss it. And this is a way to be closer without the performance anxiety."
He agreed, but now I have to once again find the right time to talk about it. Usually Sunday morning at my house is the best time, but this morning didn't work. We're having guests for dinner, so this evening won't work.
I've left out a lot. The feeling of exhaustion and futility. Crawling up that mountain for the zillionth time. And yet at the end of that marathon encounter, I did feel hopeful. Was that warranted? Or am I just kidding myself?
This morning I got an email from a tenant I have in a rental house in another town. She's having a hard time, too, and she was telling me that a good friend of hers was killed in a car wreck-- drunk driving. My tenant has 10 years of sobriety and so did her friend, but her friend fell of the wagon about a year ago, her husband divorced her and took their three kids. The friend was back in recovery for three months, and then relapsed and got behind the wheel. I think I really DON'T give enough credence to his struggle with alcohol and the aftermath. For those of us who even occasionally imbibe too much, it's hard-- maybe impossible-- to enter into the mind of an honest-to-God bonafide hard core substance abuser. Someone who uses EVERY DAY for YEARS. We all have our demons, but theirs are ferocious. That's why I harp on AA and alanon so much. It's easy to deny the impact of substance abuse on a life... and very easy to minimize it, because most people who drink aren't alcoholics. Drinking is acceptable for the most part. But for those for whom alcohol is a demon-- God help them because no one else can. I think I've been minimizing the impact of 30+ years of alcohol and drug abuse on my bf's life and the amount of time it will take for him to become an adult human being. A counselor told him that your development is arrested at the age that you started using, so if you started at 18 and stop at 50, you are an 18 year old emotionally in a 50 year old body.
Just writing this out has given me some perspective. But I still wonder if I'm trying to deal with an emotionally and mentally dysfunctional person in a way that simply is not going to work with him? I will give it more patience, but am I on the road to nowhere? Yes it is helping my own growth. I've grown more in the R probably than any other one in the past, but it's been so painful.
Lou, am I missing how to apply the book here? It's one thing if your Identity System requires you to have all green traffic lights-- it's easy to see how that is unreasonable. But what if your Identity System requires that your partner treat you with kindness and civility? He says in the book "well this doesn't mean you tolerate abuse" in an offhand way, but AM I tolerating abuse? I truly don't know. The Undefended Love ladies saw him in action and didn't think he was abusive. His therapist doesn't think he is. Everyone who meets him likes him instantly. Am I just too sensitive?
Right back where I started. Thanks for reading this War and Peace epic.
Lil, first hugs to you. What a tough thing to write.
The part that disturbing me the most was your bf's long description of what can go wrong with things and not knowing if he or anyone would be alive in 30 seconds or days. That is fog for sure
So, you just want me to agree with you whether I really do or not. Let me get this straight. I should just listen and agree no matter what you say?" BTDT too sometimes with BB. Not much you can say to get them to do much. I find I have to talk less and do what I feel I have to do to save myself.
I am so sorry to hear he does not get paid regularly. I know with me, I feel I am what I earn sometimes. I did the commission thing for 20 years. Business was really bad so I worked harder and eventually caused my own back problems I have to this day. It took several years for me to determine I was more than my work and that I had value as a person. Not very good for the alpha male behaviors some women need to feel safe. I am reclaiming some of that lost territory. Enough about me. I posted this because your bf "might" feel something similar.
It's one thing if your Identity System requires you to have all green traffic lights- That would describe BB some or most of the time, depending on other things.
My part where I screw up is, I try to make some lights green by changing my speed (metaphor, but sometimes in reality).
Maybe it is why I said some times you have to take what you want. I made enough lights green but don't always get something I want for making them green, so I have decided to take/insist firmly but politely, and stand my ground.
I don't want to end up like Chrissy or like chrome is now, "feeling" like the R is going down hill. I am going to take some things and if the R goes down hill in one area it might improve in another area.
Lil, I have been sick all day but wanted to say a few words of encouragement and let you know I understand some of what you are dealing with.
Your post is long and although I have been in bed more than half of the day, my mind is not with it right now. I won't comment on the book right now other than to say there were a lot of places I was thinking about a stress management group I was in in college said "Should" a lot. It seemed like a life scripts. The fixer was the new tool like a 3 year old gets. If that tool is a hammer, everything needs hammering. As far as the adult world, If we find a new theory or skill we like, we use it on our partner and the R should be better.
While reading the book, I kept saying to my self "should" and "hope/the fixer" and saw how many times I have been down that road. Sometimes it works for a few days only to have another bad layer of the onion to strip away.
That "fog machine" thing...what a trip. Gotta give the guy credit for the MAJOR deflection effort he puts forward. Wow.
And, like lou, I stopped at this quote: "He said, "So, you just want me to agree with you whether I really do or not. Let me get this straight. I should just listen and agree no matter what you say?" But maybe for different reasons. I am the one who feels this way (without necessarily saying it) toward my W. I get the fact that he was taking your criticism of his "over correctionism" (my term), and turning it into a "rule," but still, I can see where he's coming from here. However, let him spend a week or two with Ms.Hdog and he'd probably be worshipping at your feet.
No big words of advice from me, sweetie. Just lots of empathy.
Quote: That brings us to my bf. This is what I cannot figure out and what I have not been able to figure out since shortly after we got together (four years ago in August): is it him or is it me? Is he crazy. Is he mentally disturbed. Does he just do a pretty good job of masquerading as a functional person, or is he nuts. OR: am I nuts?
To give my .02 on the question which prompted your long post (a question which I am not fully qualified to answer because I am not a trained psychologist nor am I there with you, but have no hesitation in answering anyway). Your boyfriend is crazy, dysfunctional, etc., not you.
You sound like you are TOO thoughtful and seek reason in unreasonable situtations. My guess is that you come from an academic background and are always looking at the possible answers and never certain that what you are seeing is true. You want to make sure that your logic is not flawed by facts not considered or that you are not biased by your own assumptions. You sound like you may be hoping to use reason and logic with an unreasonable person as you would with some body of academic research.
Your need for connection with this man keeps you from seeing the situation as it truly is. In the end, your gut knows the truth but your mind wants undeniable proof.
Thanks for seeing my issues with such clarity. I was curious how you would respond.
You are not messed up (though there is one little problem I think you need to fix, which I will discuss later). I don’t think your bf messed up either. He seems to be a very caring and sensitive person. In fact I would say that he is WAAAAAY to caring and sensitive, and that very trait has come around to trap him. It is rare to find a man who is as truly caring and sensitive to your situation as he is. I think this is what attracts you to him. The confusing thing is his “fog machine.” I believe this is a means of deflection and avoiding the hard truth. My wife does this a lot. She unconsciously gets onto a tangent long enough to steer the discussion away from the topic at hand, hoping I will forget the real conversation and she can scoot out the backdoor.
I think you bf’s biggest problem in his life is not his drinking, it is his MOTHER. I am projecting my past issues here, but if I understand his situation correctly, there may be an analogy. He is very enmeshed with his mother, she is highly dependent on him, calls him every night, does not want to let him go, want to continue to mother him. He has compromised himself by letting her do this to him, out of his unassertive, caring and sensitive nature, to the extent that he has trapped himself financially.
When I was in college, I was dependent on my parents to help with tuition, etc. But then she would get mad over something, she would threaten to cut off the money. That would make me extremely angry, since she had before promised to help out and I had been so dumb as to believe her. I learned not to depend any more than necessary, working my way through college, but parents can make a powerful pull. For about 10 years now I have pretty much cut off any emotional obligations to my mother. Her most recent financial gift was to give me her old van (which is still in good shape). I accepted it but will not allow myself to be dependent on feeling obligated to her for this gift. If she were to ever ask for it back (which I don’t think she would ever do) I have already decided that I will just tell her no, it was a gift and I am keeping it.
Your bf needs to cut off his dependence on his mother. He has sacrificed himself long enough for her sake. He should do everything he can to empower himself, find a new job, train in a new field if necessary. He needs to become financially independent and stop relying on momma for help. He also needs to learn to not buy into her guilt trips (I’m willing to bet she does this to – a lot). If this analogy has any relevance, it might also be that his mother is a narcissist, just like mine. Recognizing that will go a long way toward breaking those chains.
Being trapped in that type of situation is very difficult for a man. It is natural to take care of one’s mother. He is doing his part to be a good son. This shows a valuable, sensitive, caring part to him that is what I think attracts you the most. But his mother has stripped him of his manhood. He is a puppet and it is an extremely frustrating position for him to be in. I think he is venting his frustration toward his mother onto you. The good part is that he feels safe enough with you to do this. He just needs to recognize what he is doing (well, he already knows that doesn’t he).
It may even turn out that his drinking is a passive aggressive way to deal with his mother. So until he stops the source of his pain (his mother), he will always feel the pull of alcohol.
Now to you. You have mentioned several times in various posts how you long for the relationship with your ex. You have to let this go. You are holding an ideal in front of your bf that he will never achieve. He will always be second fiddle to your ex. I know how much you miss your ex, but you have to lay him to rest, close the door and move on. Otherwise you are not truly committing yourself to your bf and he knows it. Enough of this. I know you know what I am talking about. I hope all this helps.
Lil....Big huggs to you. What an exhausting experience for you...it does sound like to eeked out a glimmmer of hope from it all. And sometimes that's all it takes. It does sound like that is the pattern for you in this relationship...Lil puts forth huge amounts of effort, and gets some tidbits in return. There is a tremendous amount of emotional energy spent to help your bf "see." Only you can determine whether it's all worth it for you. I do know ( and something I posted to you recently) that at some point you do have to " receive." That's part of a relationship. It's necessary. Even if it is just a small morsel. And I do see some movement in your bf...he gave up the alcohol ( huge)...he went to that conference with you...he is in therapy. He has MAJOR issues, but who doesn't? Certainly he is aware on some level that it's June, his daughters are graduating, and Lil is thinking of leaving. Abandonment stuff. He's facing all this sober and his defenses and craziness are coming out. My personal opinion is that each one of us has some element of craziness...it's all a matter of degree...we're all a blend of personality features which can be exaggerated into mental illness under the right ( or should I say wrong) circumstances. It takes a lot to stay on the program of life. I do have some empathy for him...but I don't have to be in a relationship with him ( I have my own nut job, thank you very much).
I am sorry he is making this so hard for you. Only you can determine when you have had enough, and I know you know that. I don't see anything clear cut in the picture you just described as far a decision you "should" be making. A healthier partner will move you to your intimacy goals quicker. If you stay with this, you have to set your expectations way low...but that does not mean you can't move forward to a better place, as you say. It just won't look like what you have in your mind ( or even what you are capable of with someone else).
Lil, I have two children who are complete opposites. One is a gifted student in all areas...honors, art ,music, athletic, etc. Everything comes easy to her. The other one struggles through it all with learning disabilities and all. Sometimes my greatest rewards come from him. Two different paths, two different challenges.
Thanks for sharing your struggle here. Wish I had the answers as I always learn so much from you. Please keep us updated...and do something just for you today. Glad your computer is working again! PS...Lou, hope you are feeling better.
> can most of us consciously appreciate the extent to which our present experience of the world repeats our past. 
