shippd,
I have an AM feeling alot of the same things right now.Same thing about the weekends and weekdays kinda thing.Weekends are great,we just went out of town last weekend and had a GREAT time together,then we get back home and BAM..REALITY again.The only difference is that in my sitch IM the one feeling and doing the negative things.My W seems to want nothing more than to forget the past and move on,she seems very happy with me.
I know sometimes i ask myself if i can do this,and yes i have considered leaving,but i try to remember what shape i was in when i was not home with my W and family.I would have done anything to be here right now.I told my W that no matter what had happened we could have a better stronger M than ever.Now i am the one who seems to be trying to sabotage that.
I have come to the conclusion that YES this is much harder than i ever thought it would be.Its like my wife is soo happy(when im not bringin us down)So then i think to myself if we can be this happy right now and she loves me so much then how could she have ever hurt me like this.Sometimes i wonder about marriage and if i can ever really trust ANYONE again.I sometimes feel i think we have lost too much,i dont feel "special" to her anymore.
Anyway shippd your gonna have bad days,but i think if we LBS can go through 6 months of the worst hell imaginable,we can handle this and if you were to give 6 months of the man you are trying to be, and not be the husband she can live with,but being the husband she cant live without, then i think things will turn around for you.
Just wanted to let you know that the things you are feeling are perfectly normal..and i say this as much i am struggling taking my advice here and people like GH as well,but after what you have been through i think you would be mad at yourself later if you gave up now,when it really counts.
It is true!the hard work really does start now,and yes for a while it will probably feel like you are still doing all the work..but during my seperation, if i am the same man that professed his undying "unconditional" love for my W,then i have to be man enough to step up and continue to do the things i was doing for MYSELF as well as for my FAMILY,and i believe time will take care of alot of the issues I have created for myself.
Hang in there man
DeeJay
well last night was more of the same, depressed and distant wife. one of her complaints before she left and what keep her from comming home is that i didnt do anything around the house. since she has been home i have done everything, not for her but for me and the kids. has she noticed i dont know, does she care i dont know, but i can tell you i dont care if she notices and cares. i work till five everyday, real stressful job, when i get home i want to unwind and relax. i want to feel comfortable with everyone in my home. right now i dont feel that, the tension my w is creating is not fair to me or the kids. this mood she is in is her choice, she does not have to be this way, she choses too be this way. i will give it time, but its not what i expected. its more of the same before she left, and i told myself i would not live with a woman that was like that ever again, and here i stand living the way i dont want to live. but i will wait and she if this is temperary, but if this is long term, i will be the WAS.
Quote: well last night was more of the same, depressed and distant wife.
Almost 100% of the WAS upon return are this way. If they're not, they're covering it up. They are grieving a lost love. They are grieving losing a life they were SURE was their "right path". I would suggest you look back, well you don't even have to look back at all, just look inside. How do YOU feel about losing someone you love? How do YOU feel about your "perfect life" or what you "expected from life" being ripped away from you? She is likely going through that right now, but over OM and what she had with him. You may not want to hear that, but from what I understand (not being a WAS myself, I can't say for sure) that's what they go through. Even if she didn't love him, she thought things were good on that side of the fence. Now she's on your side, a side she was CONVINCED she didn't want to be on, she's given up the "greener grass" on the other side and is scared $hitless that she made the wrong choice, all the while dealing with the loss she may feel.
That all adds up to a negative, $hit soup that, yes, may cause her to be down for some time. It's to be expected. It ANYTHING can be expected, from my experience reading threads here, it's that. My W did it, and I have read countless other sitches where the WAS did it. I even thought, and was actually told this by many people, that until my W acted that way, it was likely that the affair was not truly over. Until she grieved the loss of him, things would not, could not progress between us. I believe that to be true.
Quote: i want to feel comfortable with everyone in my home. right now i dont feel that, the tension my w is creating is not fair to me or the kids. this mood she is in is her choice, she does not have to be this way, she choses too be this way.
I suggest you look at this statement. I agree with you to a certain extent because I say the same to LBS. It's OUR choice to be miserable when they leave us, or cheat on us. Does that mean it's EASY to choose to be any other way? Well, was it easy? Did you ever really choose to do that, and then execute that choice to any degree of success or did your emotions often get the better of you? Remember, she is probably doing this alone, without something like this board or books to help her. It will probably take her more time to break out of this funk.
Now, the real issue here is that as much as her mood is her choice, YOUR reaction to it is yours. If you feel the need to be miserable just because she is, and are SO attached to her emotions, then you have a VERY rough road ahead. Detaching was key before this point and absolutely crucial now.
I know in my sitch, one of my greatest issues is codependency and extreme "attachment". My inability to maintain emotional stability in the face of my W's changing emotions/moods is a LARGE part of the downfall of our marriage. Learning that just because she's down or upset, that does NOT mean I have to be, has been a HUGE help to me and the process of healing our marriage. If you let yourself be pulled down by her, she will never have anything to look to for support or love. If you are floating down in the emotional muck with her, how will either of you ever get out of it?
I also suggest that if being comfortable is your biggest concern, you need to look HARD at that for two reasons. First, see above. Comfort will come with detachment and learning to acknowledge her mood without mirroring it, without wallowing in it with her. Second, is comfort for the next week, month, year more important than saving your marriage? Only you can answer that. I know that I am willing to, and have made the choice to endure some additional "discomfort" in my life for the sake of my marriage. For me, since there is no longer an affair in the picture, that is the "worse" part of "for better or worse". Like my W, I may have broken my vows in the past (namely the "will honor and cherish" part) but no more, and this one about things not always being "comfortable" or "better" is one that I truly understand now and accept.
Quote: i will give it time, but its not what i expected. its more of the same before she left, and i told myself i would not live with a woman that was like that ever again, and here i stand living the way i dont want to live. but i will wait and she if this is temperary, but if this is long term, i will be the WAS.
Man, that is 100% your choice. The only thing I will say is be careful when you say "i would not live with a woman that was like that ever again" as if you are the man of her dreams right now and she's f-ing it up for herself. It's a two-way street and continuing to blame her for her emotions and moods as if she has everything in the world to be happy about is not really going to get you closer to living with a woman who is truly happy and feels safe to be "herself", even if that self has a down week or two.
In the end shippd, you DO have to feel comfortable and good in your life/house/with your W...and so does SHE. Don't discount that, or even think you know what that means yet. Just because she cheated does NOT mean she gave up her right to feel the way she does.
Please, DO give this time, keep working on YOU and try to detach from this mood she's in. If you are truly a different man, and have made the changes for good that allowed her to feel safe coming home, then I think she will get past this and open up to you, finally giving you more keys to HER needs so you can get YOUR needs filled.
It's a hard process but I think you are further along that you think.
you know GH, it seems to me that you like her keeps thinking this is all my fault. i have to do all the changes, all the good, and maybe, just maybe she will notice and change. i have made big strides towards change. i do feel its time for her to make strides also. that all i am saying, but you like her dosent think she has a problem, its still all me and only up to me on where my r with my w goes. i guess its easy to point fingers, i am you are and she is deffently is. i will look at myself aAGAIN, and make the changes that i need to, but why do LBS have to make all the changes and the cheating wife dosent???????????????????????????????????????????
Quote: you know GH, it seems to me that you like her keeps thinking this is all my fault.
If that's what I seem to be telling you, then I need to do a better job of explaining my point. My point is NOT that it's all your fault, but rather that you can only CHANGE your part in this. You can only change YOU and paying so much attention to her and what she's doing or not doing is not going to get you anywhere.
Let me say clearly again. THIS IS NOT ALL YOUR FAULT. The affair is NOT YOUR FAULT. The only thing that is your fault is whatever part of the "bad" marriage you contributed to.
All I am trying to open you up to is the idea that there really is no black & white here unless you decide there is. There is room for empathy and a whole range of emotions other than anger, resentment and pity. She views JUST AS MUCH of your actions in the past as "evil" as you do hers. I am NOT SAYING SHE'S RIGHT, and that's the ultimate point I am trying to get across. NEITHER OF YOU IS RIGHT in the extreme sense, nor are you wrong. She has to learn to forgive both you AND herself and stop feeling "wrong" rather than sorry. She made a mistake. She needs to be forgiven for that, and forgive herself. YOU made mistakes, and you need to forgive yourself for them and SO DOES SHE.
One last time. IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT, but since you are the only one posting here, and have been the one doing the most work on this, it's a lot on YOU to continue that, which leads to your next question...
Quote: i have to do all the changes, all the good, and maybe, just maybe she will notice and change.
Sorry, but I am only telling you what I have experienced and read in DB/DR. The books clearly say that one of the biggest frustrations we will face is that we have to do ALL the work for the foreseeable future.
That said, I think you have it slightly wrong. You make these changes because you now realize that things in you NEEDED to change because YOU WANT THEM TO. The part about her noticing is all about the idea that she fell in love with some version of you, one that is probably a hell of a lot closer to the new you than the one she left, right? The point is that we have to get back to being the REAL us, the one they were attracted to, the one they married, so that yes, by virtue of our changes THEY go back to being the woman WE were attracted to and married.
Quote: i have made big strides towards change. i do feel its time for her to make strides also.
Ok, and you have every right to feel that way but you feeling that way doesn't guarantee her making those strides. In fact, if she feels pressure from you to "make strides" then it may in some way make her not want to. Remember, this whole thing is all about creating a situation where both the LBS, by way of intense self-analysis and change, and the WAS by way of those same changes in the LBS and therefore the environment, feel safe to examine the situation. If she feels like you are standing there, arms folded, saying "Ok, I made my changes, now you!" I doubt she will feel very "safe" to do so simply because that may feel controlling to her.
She needs to do this on her time frame, but you are 100% able to set boundaries to govern YOUR time frame and YOUR reactions to it. If she isn't moving fast enough for you, then maybe it's time for you to either try something else, or see a lawyer.
Quote: that all i am saying, but you like her dosent think she has a problem, its still all me and only up to me on where my r with my w goes.
I KNOW SHE HAS A PROBLEM. That's a given. A woman who just cheated on her H and is now trying, however slightly, to return to the marriage has a TON of problems. She has all her own "issues" that she contributed to the "bad" marriage to still deal with along with all the $hit she created by doing this. I have NEVER suggested that I was "with her" in thinking this was all on you, but as I said before, YOU are the only thing I can help, and for that matter, the only thing YOU can help right now too, so yes, it's all on you right now. Sorry, but that's probably going to be the way it is.
Where you are right now is called limbo and when I got there in my sitch, I posted that I thought it was the worst part yet, even worse than the early days after the bombs fell, for EXACTLY the same reasons you feel. I am only trying to help you NOT do what I did, and that is start to feel all the natural resentment and anger that comes once the affair dies and the WAS comes home. You know what though? Those feelings and the need to go through them are probably just as normal as her feeling the way she does.
Quote: guess its easy to point fingers, i am you are and she is deffently is.
Nope. If I am pointing fingers, it's at everyone, myself included. What I am trying to say, over and over again, is that NOBODY IS TO BLAME 100% for this. She cheated, you did whatever she thinks you did to ruin the marriage for her. You both trespassed on the other's expectations of what your vows meant. You BOTH blame each other for what's happened, her a little more I suspect because she knows what she did was wrong. All I am trying to say is that SOMEONE has to be first. SOMEONE has to stop pointing their fingers. YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME, but you do happen to be the one best equipped to lay down your weapons and try to move forward peacefully but not as a doormat, rather a strong man, secure in his own decisions and own life. She has way too much anxiety, guilt, anger and sadness to do that...and that's still no excuse, but it's likely the fact. I'm not saying you don't, but then again, you are the one I am numbing my fingers typing to, not her. I can't tell you what to tell her to get her to do what you want.
BTW, if you manage to get this question from the middle of this monster, what do you mean by "she is"? What does she say to you? How does she point at you in all this?
Quote: i will look at myself aAGAIN, and make the changes that i need to, but why do LBS have to make all the changes and the cheating wife dosent?
THEY DO. Problem is that we're the ones who want to save the marriage at first and they are the ones running from it.
Also, if you think she hasn't made changes (and no, I don't mean changing men) then you haven't paid attention. She HAS made changes but is probably afraid to express that to you because you expect her to be the "old loving, caring W" again, which she CAN be, but I think you'll find there is more to her than that now.
She HAS TO MAKE CHANGES in the long run in order for you two to live happily ever after, but your changes, since you made them in response to saving your marriage, but mainly for YOU probably come first.
Let me say again, these changes are for you, right? If so, why does it matter if she makes changes today, tomorrow or next week? If she never changes anything, and you D 6 months from now, are you going to abandon these changes?
Please, please, please, I am on your side. I am not pointing anywhere but towards what I BELIEVE is the best path, but in the end, maybe it's not the path for you. I think you have come a long way but until you can guarantee YOUR OWN happiness (comfort) and stop blaming her for not providing it for you, you may still suffer. So long as she keeps blaming you for your past behavior, things will be slow going indeed.
GH she says so many things, and they are always changing. first she told me i was controlling, then it was i was too jealous, then i was always in a bad mood, then it was i chased off all her friends, and know its i cant open up to new people. all these things she says i do have come one at a time, like she says them and then thinks ok thats not totally true, so now i have to come up with something else, and so on and so on. some of the things she says i do are true, but only a few. but those things she has done also, which now she says she admits to and that means we are just not good for each other. im sorry for thinking you are blaming me for all this, in a way i do feel that way, but i do truely appricate your advice, almost waiting for it. and you have helped me, it might not seem that way but you have. now my question is this: how can i let her have her moods and detach from them, in 36years i have never been able to leave someone alone that i think is hurting, its my nature to try and help them heal. how do i keep quiet when i have always been a communiter. the things i need to do are not my nature, i can try but i fail easily and then get depressed when i do. like i said i am the type of person that likes to work hard, see the prize and then reap the benifits. how do i change that. how do i not fall back into this person. i dont know if i ever can, and why should i. i know somethings i have to change, thats a given, but i am who i am in many ways, just like she is who she is, i am willing to except some of her things i dont like, i just wish she would do the same to me. i asked her what i did that she did not like several months back, and i dont do those things anymore, she wanted to know what i didnt like about her, but she will not and has not changed them. we have talk alot in the last month, her needs and mine. we both agreed we would give each other what we needed. i have held my end of the bargin, its now up too her to do her part.
Quote: GH she says so many things, and they are always changing. first she told me i was controlling, then it was i was too jealous, then i was always in a bad mood, then it was i chased off all her friends, and know its i cant open up to new people.
My brother from another mother, lol. These are the EXACT things my W (along with a few more) said about me, and was 100% right about in my case. It's in these areas, being controlling, jealous, moody (read:angry) and anti-social that I started to go to counseling about. After I got there, I discovered my intimacy issues and passive/aggressive nature. For some reason all that didn't make me feel like a pile of $hit, it made me feel ok about myself because now I WAS TAKING ACTION and being decisive, something I have come to learn my W, like most women appreciate above many other things in a man.
Quote: im sorry for thinking you are blaming me for all this, in a way i do feel that way, but i do truely appricate your advice, almost waiting for it. and you have helped me, it might not seem that way but you have.
No problem. I don't take this personally. I used to but there was a little exchange on a thread some time ago that taught me that I either have to be able to post without worrying about the reaction, or stop posting. I chose the former. I am glad I can help, just like I guess I'm glad you can read really long winded posts, lol.
Quote: how can i let her have her moods and detach from them, in 36years i have never been able to leave someone alone that i think is hurting, its my nature to try and help them heal.
You have all the answers right there in your question. First of all, it's not your place to "let" her have her moods. That's your first big mistake. She will have her moods whether you "let" her or not. I know you didn't probably mean "let" in the literal sense, but never-the-less, I think you DO mean it that way. I know I used to think that way. It was like every mood or emotion that she experienced DEMANDED a response from me or else I was a bad husband, an uncaring human.
In terms of your other assertion that it's your nature to "help" them heal, that's BS. You don't want to HELP them heal, you want to heal them. If I told you that simply keeping your current mood, which lets just say is happy, ad the next time your W gets in a funk, simply giving her a hug and a "let me know if you need to talk" before walking away would "help her heal", would you do that? Would it be hard? I know for me it was REALLY hard to learn to do that, but when I looked back at how I USED to be, I was shocked at how much I actually CONTRIBUTED to her pain rather than healed her. For example, when my W used to get upset, crying and such about her brother dying, I used to actually get ANGRY because I knew she was blaming herself, something that I knew was stupid. I didn't simply hug her and LISTEN to her, I wanted to FIX her. I WANTED TO HEAL HER, not HELP her heal herself, and I think that's one of the most important things we men have to learn about women...they DON'T always want to be fixed, rarely ever actually.
Quote: how do i keep quiet when i have always been a communiter.
Again, pardon me for re-interpreting your words and projecting myself onto your sitch, but I think what you really mean to say here (because it's what I would have said too) is that you are a TALKER. You like to talk, but communicating is a LOT more than that, and really what I think your W needs now is LISTENING without a lot of communication back from you. She knows how you feel. You've told her several times. She knows you are in tremendous pain over this. She knows she is responsible for a lot of that no matter what she says to the contrary, and the guilt probably eats at her a bit, but the more you are constantly "communicating" your side of things, the more she may feel justified in NOT communicating hers.
Listen, validate, move on.
Quote: like i said i am the type of person that likes to work hard, see the prize and then reap the benifits. how do i change that.
There's nothing wrong with that, but again (see a theme here) I will re-interpret your words. "I am a person who, once they see the prize, wants it NOW and sometimes lacks patience to wait for it."
I know you want to work hard and be able to steadily progress towards the "prize" but you have to understand that there are two people in this process, both of whom are at MUCH different points along the path, and maybe even for whom the "prize" is different. That's where listening and REAL communication that involves a lot of validation and empathy comes into play. Once you both start to get closer on the path, the more you can start to understand what it may take to get the "prize".
Quote: know somethings i have to change, thats a given, but i am who i am in many ways, just like she is who she is, i am willing to except some of her things i dont like, i just wish she would do the same to me.
This needs no interpretation. You are 100% right here. There ARE some things that are the core of you, that you should not change, and many others that SEEM to be but upon further inspection are NOT who you are. In many disciplines of psychology/philosophy there is the concept of the ego and the idea that the "personality" or who we THINK we are, who we have been crafted into by our lives to this point, is NOT who we are at all, but rather just a conglomeration of crap we've attached to. Much of therapy and philosophy is interested in discovering that true core, behind the ego and personality.
What all this means to you is that maybe you don't need to cling so hard to SOME of what you think you are. What you KNOW is core to your being, sure, fight for that.
Quote: i asked her what i did that she did not like several months back, and i dont do those things anymore, she wanted to know what i didnt like about her, but she will not and has not changed them.
I don't really like this. Sure, you CAN ask her, but you know what, survey after survey has shown that what people SAY and THINK they want are usually VERY different from what they are attracted to or REALLY want. For example, many women say that they want a "nice" guy but upon closer inspection, a lot of those "nice" qualities also turn them off and push them away. What they probably mean is they want a decisive man who considers their feelings, the decisive part not usually included in the definition of "nice".
So, you making changes based on what SHE said was wrong may not have been the BEST thing to do. I would say now is the time for you to look closely at your life, marriage and self to see what YOU think is wrong, no matter what she said. I think if you are honest, you will find some more work to do, and not for her, for you.
Quote: we both agreed we would give each other what we needed. i have held my end of the bargin, its now up too her to do her part.
This is not a business deal. This is not a bargain. Loving people fill the needs of their partners not out of obligation but because they want to. I don't think EITHER of you WANT to do this right now. I think both of you want to have your needs met, but see too many reasons why you shouldn't do that for the other. That's part of what I meant by dropping your weapons.
I think you may not be where you need to be in order for this "bargain" to work. I think you are still in a place where you need to have NO expectations about her meeting your needs, just like you have had none up to this point. I know that sucks, but just because she moved back does not mean she's ready for the "bargain", or at least to be an equal partner in it. I should know. My W never moved out, but the affair ended over a month ago. I had ALL the same expectations and she even said some of the same things as your W about meeting my needs, but you know what, like the book said, I didn't believe much of what I heard and it's helped me stay strong and self-sufficient through this limbo.
GH, your right, in many ways i havent change shi$. i am the same guy i have always been. i am curently still attached to her emotionaly, and physicaly. i do need to detach and start living my life the way i want to without needing her there with me every step of the way. i need to start this today (which i will) my brother in law keeps telling me i dont need this, i deserve to have a wife that wants to be with me, that helps me when im down, that wants me to help them when they are down. his advice is to give up and find someone who excepts me for who i am. he is very religious, and tells me every day that i need jesus in my life and needs a wife who respects me and loves me. in many ways hes right, but he has a loving wife and great marriage. he has never been though this, so its easy for him to tell me to let her go, that i deserve better. because i have been a very faithful husband and great father, i have got her anything she has asked for, gone anywhere she wanted to go, gave her a life that i thought she wanted. but i and everyone i know were wrong, MY wife needs more, thats probaly why it hurts me so much, i have always showed her love and affection. but i have to do things for myself and my children now and detach from her in alot of ways. i will still be loving and caring, but i WILL not pursue her anymore. if that is the only reason she is still here then she will never change. and i do want a loving wife that show me as much affection and compasion as i show them. so today is a new day for me, in the end she may not like the new me but i cannot worry about that.
As if you couldn't already tell, I am using your thread/your issues as a way to work out some of my own since you seem pretty similar to me in some ways...
Quote: GH, your right, in many ways i havent change shi$. i am the same guy i have always been. i am curently still attached to her emotionaly, and physicaly.
Ok, but I don't think I said you haven't changed, because I'm SURE you have at least if only the respect that you are now MUCH more self-aware and KNOW there are things you need to change. That alone is a HUGE change for most people. Don't discount it.
As far as your attachment/need for her, yes, you do need to try to lessen that. It's fine to WANT her but need, that's not really productive, especially in this sitch.
Quote: i need to start this today (which i will)
Good, depending on what "this" is. If it's loving detachment, then GREAT, please start now but if it's more related to...
Quote: my brother in law keeps telling me i dont need this, i deserve to have a wife that wants to be with me, that helps me when im down, that wants me to help them when they are down.
Then yes, start believing this too, but don't let it build resentment in you and make you ANGRY enough to detach. My W does this ALL the time with her parents and other family members. She takes their crap for so long and then gets ANGRY at them and detaches. I have tried to tell her (bad GH) that she CAN just decide not to let their emotional garbage affect her, but every time, she needs to get ANGRY at them before deciding that it's ok to let go of her negative feelings towards how THEY act.
You can do the same. Detach because as your BIL says, you love yourself and DESERVE to be happy, not because you are angry at W for not being there for you. Learn to be there for yourself. You deserve THAT much more than someone else being there FOR YOU.
Quote: his advice is to give up and find someone who excepts me for who i am.
Remember what DB/DR says about well-meaning family and friends. They often will advise us soley on what they think is right for us as individuals, and not take into account our feelings for the marriage and our spouses. I would take his advice with a BIG grain of salt. As much as I am pointing fingers at you for being 100% at fault (or you thought I was) HE is 100% letting you off the hook, essentially saying that you do no wrong and to find a woman who agrees with that statement. You won't find one I bet.
I am not saying you need to change your core, just some of the behaviors that would have worn on most ANY woman, not just your W.
Quote: he is very religious, and tells me every day that i need jesus in my life and needs a wife who respects me and loves me.
Ok, the religion part aside, which is something between you and God as far as I am concerned, don't we ALL need that. I wonder though what he really means by that, and if he considers her actions "mortal sins" from which there is no marital redemption. If his view is rigid in this respect, then I guess there is no reason discussing it much with him. You know how he feels so decide if you want to do that. If not, then maybe as I said, it's time to scale back the talk with him.
Quote: In many ways hes right, but he has a loving wife and great marriage. he has never been though this, so its easy for him to tell me to let her go, that i deserve better.
So you think. You may THINK you know all he's been through or that his marriage is "great" but then again, you probably thought that about your own before all this too. I'm NOT saying he doesn't have all that, just that you don't KNOW he does.
I agree in principal, someone who has not gone through this is likely to have VERY different opinions from those that have.
------- I have chosen to pull one quote and make it a reply of it's own because I think it's important enough. -------
Quote: i will still be loving and caring, but i WILL not pursue her anymore. if that is the only reason she is still here then she will never change. and i do want a loving wife that show me as much affection and compasion as i show them. so today is a new day for me, in the end she may not like the new me but i cannot worry about that.
This sounds about right. I too suffer this, as do many of us. We think that the only reason they are still around is because we pursue them, or guilt keeps them around. I think your new approach, if done from a place of self-love and not anger at her, will be GREAT for you. You DO deserve to be happy and you need to take steps to ensure that.
