Being new to the BB, I am trying my best to catch up on the conversations. It is much like walking in on a group of close friends' conversation of whom you know not a one or their histories. (Infact it is not LIKE that it IS that. )
Here are a few questions:
Who is Schnarch? Where can I find out more about differentiation and enmeshment? I have read several realationship books over the past several years and may have come across these concepts but simply can't recall them.
What the hell does FOO mean? I could not find anything in the acronym thread to explain this one.
David Schnarch is a sex therapist and author of Passionate Marriage : Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships. This book talks about differentiation and enmeshment.
FOO means Family of Origin. That was a hard one for me too, took me awhile. Family of Origin refers to the abuse, neglect, unhealthy boundaries, and things you were taught (one way or another) by your family while you were growing up. That's my understanding of it anyway, if anyone else can describe it better, please do!
Nicky
"There are two types of people -- those who come into a room and say, 'Well, here I am,' and those who come in and say, 'Ah, there you are.'"
Frederick Collins
I just went out and bought the Snarch book. At a glance, it appears to focus more on sexuality than I might have thought. I look forward to reading it.
Also, do you all have any luck getting SO to read the R books that you all do? It appears to me that one of the themes running through these threads is that we all are invested and investing in the R by doing things like reading self-help books of this sort, while our LD partners feel there is no reason to work on anything so do not.
I have asked my W to read a couple of the R books that I have and she always has an excuse not to. Usually that she it too tired at the end of the day. My sense is that these books are a threat to her already low self esteem. Often she actually reacts angrily if I bring it up again, as if to say it is just one more bit of pressure on her to be someone she is not and will never be, nor has any desire to be.
As I have been told before, the ones in the relationship who seek help are usually not the ones who need it.
Good for you, glad you got the book. It is certainly on my reading list.
My H has read SSM. It was actually a good thing for him to do. He decided that he just doesn't have the desire, that he needs the stimulation to get into it. In all actuality, after much digging, I have discovered that H DOES have desire, but he does not know how to initiate. Well, not that he doesn't know how, but that it's a turn on for him if I do. The only problem for me is knowing when the right time is. We are currently working on a more fair division of initiation.
I would really like him to read Schnarch too, with me if possible. But I have a feeling that I will just end up pointing out key areas the pertain to us and asking him to read certain things. He is pretty open minded about that kind of stuff and knows there are things we need to work on. We have gotten to the point where we ARE actively working on our M.
Regarding your W, best to approach it in a non-threatening way. Maybe you read the book first, point out some key things and suggest that she read the book or parts of it.
Have you guys talked about your R and how you are feeling. Can you give some history into your R? (Read your SSM Quiz, but it doesn't give much info...)
Quote: Often she actually reacts angrily if I bring it up again, as if to say it is just one more bit of pressure on her to be someone she is not and will never be, nor has any desire to be.
Do you now why she acts this way? Has she really never had desire or drive? Did it just change suddenly?
Quote: As I have been told before, the ones in the relationship who seek help are usually not the ones who need it.
Very true, I know I need my fair share of help!
Nicky
"There are two types of people -- those who come into a room and say, 'Well, here I am,' and those who come in and say, 'Ah, there you are.'"
Frederick Collins
I am in a classic SSM. I also believe that my W suffers from mild depression (sleeps alot, doesn't enjoy much from life, laughs very little) I would also describe her as a confrontational communicator which makes discussions about our sex life extremely difficult and really non-existent. I respond in the ways described in the book and am having a difficult time finding ways to change my behavior and response to get a different behavior and response from her. I usually keep reminding myself that she is simply not interested and only initiate a few times a month so as not to cause conflict.
My W has no pet names for me and never uses terms of endearment to reference me.
W is what most would consider a Acts of Service love language. Does lots of things for others including myself. Is always the first to volunteer and be the "Team parent", for example.
When we started dating we were sexual with in about a week which for me was mind blowing. We never had intercourse until we were married but the sex we had was great! This hooked me because I never had confidence with women and didn't date much. I was always the good guy who girls came to for friendship and talk. At age 20, my W (then girlfriend) was like a goddess come to find me and, what I had waited for. As a result I never had much sexual experience prior to marriage.
Thinking back, she was sexually submissive even then, never the initiator, and not one to enthusiastically engage. But she always enjoyed sexy once going and still does.
She has traits of her father who has never told his wife that he loves her and never shows outward signs of affection. She is also Catholic but I don't know how much a role that plays. I was not raised to be religious but am now.
My MIL is very easy to talk to and very much like me. We talked a bit about my W last week and MIL divulged that she too is a LD. The inlaws, except for the FIL, seem to have sympathy for me because they see how W treats me like FIL treats MIL. It has become a running joke when we get together.
My FOO finds my Father very open about sex and rather liberated on one hand but massaganistic on the other. He exposed me to Playboy, Penthouse, etc. by age 15 and was always willing to talk about sex, eventhough I was not so willing to talk to him. My Mother and I never talke about sex yet my Mother seems to accept my Father's openness and never complains. My Father at age 81 still has adult material in his house. (Is this TMI?)
So W and I are quite opposite
We ML about once per month with me always the initiator. She shys away from physical touch and does not respond well to my verbal expressions of love and affection. She simply is not an affectionate person.
I wish that she could just smile when I walk in the room, stoke my arm and say "Hi Honey, how's it going. I missed you today." This would be as good as sex right now. But it just not her nature. I show affection in this way but she seems to cringe when I do. Talk about pulling out my heart and stepping on it!
We have S17 and D15.
I have been having more and more thoughts of Sep. and D as I question whether I can go through the rest of my life in a R with no outward signs of affection (either physical or other) from the person whom I have, up until this point dedicated my life to.
Thanks for posting your sitch again, I appologize that I didn't catch your original posts.
Quote: Thinking back, she was sexually submissive even then, never the initiator, and not one to enthusiastically engage. But she always enjoyed sexy once going and still does.
I am a little confused about the latter part of your statement. "She always enjoyed sex once going and still does." Do you mean that sex is gratifying to her, yet she doesn't show passion during sex or ever initiates?
You background sounds similiar to mine. My mother was VERY open about sex with me from a very early age. I have grown up thinking that it is a normal, healthy part of a relationship, almost a neccesity. I was also raised thinking that all guys wanted it all the time. I remember on the night of my senior prom, she gave me a pack of condoms. Totally blew me away.
Your W sounds like my H. He does think about sex (I know he looks at porn, almost daily), he just doesn't show it in his daily actions to me. He doesn't initiate, or if he does, it's like "hey, you gonna go up and shower or what?". Real romantic, huh? He generally doesn't initiate once in the bed, but once I get him going a little bit he does get into it and enjoys it. So, what I have discovered is that my problems with my R is not really about the physical act of sex, it's about the level of intimacy and closeness I feel from him on a day to day basis. It's about him needing closeness and affection from me. So my question to you is, is your R problem really about sex, lack of, quality of, etc... or is it about your R on a day to day basis.
Quote: My Father at age 81 still has adult material in his house. (Is this TMI?)
Not TMI, interesting really. I hope I still think about sex at 81!
Quote: I wish that she could just smile when I walk in the room, stoke my arm and say "Hi Honey, how's it going. I missed you today." This would be as good as sex right now. But it just not her nature. I show affection in this way but she seems to cringe when I do. Talk about pulling out my heart and stepping on it!
Have you ever told her that? That what you need is daily words of affirmation...I must think that that has to be less threatening than asking for sex everyday. I am also inclined to think that if she spoke to you like that everyday, perhaps a sub-par sex life would be less of a problem?
I wonder if she doesn't feel worthy of accepting compliments and praise or verbal gestures of love?
Quote: When we started dating we were sexual with in about a week which for me was mind blowing. We never had intercourse until we were married but the sex we had was great! This hooked me because I never had confidence with women and didn't date much.
Do you know when this changed? Do you think she was being physical because she wanted to be or because she felt she had to be?
You sound a little bit like our friend Chrome here on the BB. Started out in his R with less than stellar self-esteem. You should really go back and read some of his threads, espcially the one on self-esteem. He's come a long way. How is your self esteem now? How has it differed since your 20's?
Quote: I have been having more and more thoughts of Sep. and D as I question whether I can go through the rest of my life in a R with no outward signs of affection (either physical or other) from the person whom I have, up until this point dedicated my life to.
Does W know how unhappy you are? Would it be a shock to her if you told her this? Maybe it's the reality check she needs to start working on this R with you.
Sorry this is so long... Nicky
"There are two types of people -- those who come into a room and say, 'Well, here I am,' and those who come in and say, 'Ah, there you are.'"
Frederick Collins
I have been away for a few days and have not had the time to get back into the BB since being gone. I appreciated your responses.
Just so you (and others) know, I have been reading Snarch's Passionate Marriage since last posting. The book has caused me to reflect on my R and more importantly on myself in new ways.
In short, I see where my W and I are very fused and I need to figure out how to differentiate and enter the crucible. Very slippery concepts but I think that I am getting it.
In response to some of your questions, I believe that my self esteem in better now than it has ever been, but I can't see that manifested in my M, so I believe that I am confusing esteem with something else. I believe that I am a good man with much to offer to many in all aspects of my life but upon reflection see how this "offering" that I am know for could really be a yearning for acceptance. I see that in my W as well.
My W enjoys sex once going but remains somewhat inhibited even in the throes of passion. She is not adventurous nor eager to get started. She has to be aroused by me and, from what I can tell cannot get aroused on her own. Everytime I read a book that quotes the W as saying "I just can't get excited at anytime like you can", I say, "THAT"S MY WIFE!"
I have told her that I am a physical touch and words of affirmation person but she doesn't get it. My next step with regards to this it to tell her (in a Snarchy way) that I want her to refer to me as "Honey" or "Sweetheart" sometimes, but she should do it only if she wants to and not simply because it means something to me.
Quote: Do you think she was being physical because she wanted to be or because she felt she had to be?
What a good question. If I had to answer, I would say because she wanted to be. I believe that she wants the good feelings of sex, but not the "trampy" notion of being a sexual agressor. (My interpretation of her state of mind and me putting words in her mouth now.) I believe this is still her mode of thinking.
I don't think that she does know how unhappy I really am. Letting her know is my crossroad now. This is where the Snarch book is pushing me. I have to be strong enough to let her know who I really am and differentiate myself from her and her reactions.
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