Am I Creating a SSM Part IV

[heatherg]

GEL, I appreciate you taking the time to come by and give me your perspective. I see that there is probably a difference between stopping sex in the middle and flat out refusing to have it. I guess I'm just skipping a step b/c I know H will not kiss me. So, rather than get myself all worked up and then have to stop, I just cut to the chase. Ok, there's a touch of sarcasm there, but really, I still stand by my decision. It's what feels right to me. Well, let me rephrase that, because none of these shenanigans feel 'right' to me.....but in light of the way things have to be, stopping sex feels the 'rightest' decision for my self-respect.

Cobra, thanks so much for your last few posts to me. You seemed to have softened toward me somehow and I appreciate it.

Cobra: Consistently, firmly and calmly press this point, asking for explanations on ALL statements he makes and looking for understanding of any inconsistencies. Don’t let him get away with this deflection.

This is definitely something I need to work on. I am always WAY to quick to speak and don't spend nearly enough time asking questions, listening, validating and trying to understand. This doesn't just happen with H, so I know it's my problem. I have noticed it is harder with H though because the things he says usually seem so ridiculous meant just to deflect or throw me off track. This makes it all the more important to keep on track and make him clarify. Asking questions is the best way to do that. I should start practicing with other people since I don't get to talk to H much. If I wait for my encounters with him in order to practice, I could still be a novice 10 years from now

Blackfoot: You say BS, and then you agree with me. <cocked eyebrow> Hmmm.

My response was confusing! I agreed with your idea that I want resolution to conflict and then I qualified my agreement with a 'but' statement. BUT, trying to force conflict resolution was not the main reason for my most recent boundaries, i.e. swiss cheese . The main reason for my boundaries is to maintain my integrity. Whether or not resolution is reached. Ideally, I'd like both

Blackfoot: I see that my post(s?) have made you angry. Dont take them personal, if thats what happened.

It wasn't the whole post, just a few of the statements that got me a little fired up. I am particularly sensitive to statements of opinion as though they are fact. You seem very adept in doing that.

Blackfoot: learn to soften your H's defenses, instead of make him want to strengthen them.

It does seem that this should be my goal, I know. I read something GEL wrote and she said 'my give a damn was busted'. I think that's the case with me as well. I'm just sick of his crap and I find it very difficult these days to try to think of ways to soothe him. I really think my give a damn is busted. That can't be good eh?

Blackfoot: I want to assist you, Im not just here to amuse myself by passing your silly tests.

I'm very appreciative for your assistance, hopefully I've not let my defensiveness get in the way of communicating that. Tests...hmm. I can honestly say I don't know what you're talking about. If I am testing, it is entirely subconscious. I just clash with intense egos. Maybe because there's only room in my life for my own. Really though, I don't mean to give you the impression that I am testing you. I do not presume that I am nearly important enough to anyone here to have to jump through hoops just to give me the advice I myself have solicited.

Blackfoot: Schnarch is great IMO. (Yes Ive read him.) but I see when and where people use self improvement and boundaries like ALt dave discussed in his post on cobras thread today. They actually are using it to break the R. <Hand raised> I did this. More pain then I could handle.

It is so ironic that you mentioned this because I think I read the post that you are referring to and I thought to myself "That makes so much sense!" Are you talking about where AtlDave talked about anxiety and setting boundaries and how if you feel anxiety then the boundaries are probably not for the right reasons? I'll make sure we are on the same page before I comment further.

So it may be the best thing financially to keep the truck, but affairs carry a very very HIGH price with them....Financially affairs ruin many people.


Yes, you're right. But if I were to make such a bad financial decision, I would be ruining *myself* out of shame and guilt. Because it seems to me that no one would make such a bad financial decision unless they were seriously beating themselves up.

Blackfoot: But part of your price to pay may be you having to switch vehicles occasionally. I dont see the big deal. My x and I switched constantly. it wasnt hers and mine they were ours.

You can't compare to you and your x here. The circumstances were different because no one was trying to control anyone else. In certain cases, I would probably be fine about switching vehicles....but only if I knew it was occurring because I wanted it to. Not because it was expected of me and if I didn't do it H would be 'mad' at me. I'm not playing that anymore.

I said: H ignored me, made a snotty remark to the kids "I guess Mommy didn't have time to pick me up".
Blackfoot said: This is a suprise? His wife didnt come get him from the airport. Yeah thats definitely a withdrawal.

No, his immaturity is not a surprise after this long. Surprise or no surprise, it is still irresponsible and immature to address it in front of the kids, especially to change the story into 'not having enough time'. It wasn't about not having time! It was because he wouldn't ride in my truck.

I said: Everything from here on out will not be on H's terms, even if it would theoretically make the M better. Giving someone whatever they want always makes them happy in the short term.
Blackfoot said: If you honestly think I suggest or want you to operate this way.... my communication is terrible, or your not very sharp. I dont belive either one.

Blackfoot, don't try to bully me by telling me that the only two options here are that you can't communicate or that I'm stupid. I wasn't driving at either of those two points and yet, there is a third option if you can believe it, which is what I really meant. You have said before that my boundaries are fake, which I have taken to mean that you think I 'should' be doing the opposite of what I am doing in those instances. I don't feel that my boundaries are fake and my point is that I can either act upon how *I* feel (and implement my boundaries) or I can give H what he wants even though it makes me feel like crap.

I said: You wanna be roomates? I'll give you roomates. You wanna be husband and wife? I'll give you that too. He needs to decide.
Blackfoot said: Very reactive. Not differentiated. Your giving him power over you, in an area that he isnt asking for.

Good point. I should be taking the stance that we will be husband and wife or nothing at all. Thing is, I can't make that happen and I'm not prepared to leave. So, in light of that, what are my options?

Blackfoot: Your an interesting warrior chick, but thats not why I am here.

Picture Beevis and Butthead saying "hehe, hehe...cool". I have no idea why that popped into my head, but it did Anyway, warrior chick. Wow, I think I like it.

Blackfoot: Have you put together a plan yet?

Quite simply, no. I have no excuses.


Blackfoot: what are your ideas for being nice to each other?

I have no idea what his plans are, but one of the things I need to work on is greeting him when I see him, instead of just greeting the kids. He ignores me a lot when he comes home, particularly if he is mad at me, and it's really, really hurtful to me. So, I started doing it in return. Bad, bad, I know. I'm going to stop. That's my only idea for now.

I have a lot more to respond to. Tomorrow is another day. Thanks.

[koshka]

Heather,

Wow, your thread is running hot these days.

Trust your gut.

As far as "the truck" goes, if H wanted to get over "the truck" because it'd be best for your M if he did, then he would. Right now he doesn't seem to want to get over it. Take it from a guy whose XW had OM at what was our house. I kept the house. Heck, I even negotiated to get the bed that had been ours, though I had no legal right to it in this state. (She inherited it during the M, so it wasn't marital property.)

Al Anon could be wonderful for you. I mentioned that in Annapolis, didn't I? (The Middies get their commissions this week. Lots of uniforms and disrupted traffic.) I also believe your H is an alcoholic. The "relationship with alcohol" and changes in his personality with/without alcohol are dead give aways.

Trust your gut,

Joe

Oh, and Stigmata,

That stuff is just as expensive as the real stuf and any beer drinker will tell you he/she doesn't see the cost-benefit ratio here. Beer ain't that danged tasty.

I don't think I've ever tasted O'Douls, but I have deliberately brewed lower alcohol content beer to serve at a party. Real beer sure is danged tasty!

[Jabez]

Heather,

I've been reading your thread and the postings going back and forth about selling or turning in your truck. Let me make a comment on that. As you know W & I went thru a custody sitch, I spent $4K on the L. I'm guessing W spent about the same so that's about $8K. Talk about a "sunk cost"! Getting close to your $10K "loss" on the truck eh? What's more important to you, the truck, the $10K or taking a step forward in getting the R/M you want?

Jabez

[LustForLife]

What's more important to you, the truck, the $10K or taking a step forward in getting the R/M you want?

Have to agree with this Heather.
My H ran up about $10,000 on the credit card moving into his damm apartment. We are usually very good with money and this pissed me off big time. But you know what, I really had to let that go for the betterment of the M.

[heatherg]

Interesting thing happened today. I took H by surprise and caught him reading Codependent No More. He put the book down behind something and I just pretended I didn't see the title. WTH?! I've NEVER known H to even THINK about reading a self help book!! What does this mean? Have any of you read it? What exactly is 'codependent'? Based on what you know about the circumstances, why do you think he would choose this particular book?

Thanks for any insight. I am quite surprised by this.

[karen1]

Heather,

Interesting choice of read. Is your H the child of an alcoholic or anything like that? Does he know someone who has a substance abusing parent or spouse? These are reasons that he may be reading it other than applying it to you and he. The book basically covers the problems of enmeshment with other and deals with each side taking ownership of their own mental sh!t. I'll be interested to see if he tries out anything in it. You could get a copy at the public library and read along.

Karen

[heatherg]

Hey Karen, no he doesn't come from an abusive or alcoholic background, that's why I found the book so odd. It seems the full title is "How to Stop Controlling Peopl and Start Taking Care of Yourself" or something like that.

I asked him about it while we were at the beach this weekend. The kids were playing in the water and H and I were in our beach chairs and I just asked him "Is that codependent book yours?" He said "Yeah, it's just some research I'm doing". I said "Oh. What does codependent mean anyway?" He said "That's what I'm learning, but it's basically someone who is so focused on other people's problems that they never address their own." I pretended I didn't suspect he was talking about me and I asked him a couple more simple questions and then just let it drop. Apparently, he's trying to diagnose me. Can't really get too upset, I do the same right?

Anyway, we had a great weekend. The kids had a blast, I invited H to sleep in bed with me on Sunday night, he did, we had sex. Then after we got home last night I asked him if we could keep up the good thing we had going.....I asked him to let me sleep in my bed. A pretty big argument ensued.

My sister called me a little while ago. I almost didn't take her call, but I find myself not taking a lot of her calls. Odd thing is, she's the best friend I have, why would I avoid her calls? It's because she doesn't understand what I'm still doing with H. She doesn't have kids and she doesn't understand why 'I let him treat me this way'. She makes me feel pathetic and weak for staying. As I wondered why I discuss my R with her I realized that a lot of times I don't know what else to talk about.....I'm so wrapped up in this, I can't seem to live a normal life. Sort of like when you break up with someone, everything reminds you of that person. Everything reminds me and/or leads me back to the fact that my M is broken and my life is not normal. I just don't know what else to say.

[OG_Lou]

RE Heatherg Apparently, he's trying to diagnose me. Can't really get too upset, I do the same right?

You might be right he is trying to diagnose you but I also bet he will see himself in the book and see how relationships go south and maybe some insights as how to improve what you two have.

The way I read the book was "that is me too" always letting people's behaviors get to me. No I don't want to control anyone, oops yes I do want to control situations.

Assumptions Heatherg, be careful.

Lou

[Jabez]

Hi Heather,

Glad you had a good weekend at the beach. Sorry to hear about the agument when you got back. I remember somewhere in MWD's KLA CD's she talked about triggers. Home and the bed are a tigger for you & H. Maybe next time you are going away, you could invite H to your bed and while you are still away, ask if the invitation could be reciprocated. If your in a hotel/motel room is there really a sense of the marital bed vs. the daybed? It's just a bed. But maybe you were at a place that has a history with you and there is a sense of the marital bed.

I asked him about it while we were at the beach this weekend. The kids were playing in the water and H and I were in our beach chairs and I just asked him "Is that codependent book yours?" He said "Yeah, it's just some research I'm doing". I said "Oh. What does codependent mean anyway?" He said "That's what I'm learning, but it's basically someone who is so focused on other people's problems that they never address their own." I pretended I didn't suspect he was talking about me and I asked him a couple more simple questions and then just let it drop. Apparently, he's trying to diagnose me.

The fact that H is reading this book and opened up and answered your questions is a good sign. Keeping with the pretending not to suspect that he is diagnosing you, I'd continue asking general, open-ended questions about the book. This could provide you with insight into what he is thinking, but be careful not to react to what he says.

~Jabez

[heatherg]

OGLou: You might be right he is trying to diagnose you but I also bet he will see himself in the book and see how relationships go south and maybe some insights as how to improve what you two have.

I thought of this too. I've also thought that it was all just a ploy to get me to read the book. He has not brought the book into the house, it has been in his truck since I 'caught' him reading it. I'm leaning more toward the idea that he wanted me to read it.

Jabez:If your in a hotel/motel room is there really a sense of the marital bed vs. the daybed? It's just a bed.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. For me, the only sense of 'bed' is that we sleep together. For him, it isn't about the bed, it's about letting me sleep with him. People have mentioned getting rid of the bed. Nothing happened to 'contaminate' our bed the way H might think my truck has been 'contaminated'. When we go to hotels, etc he will sleep with the kids or in some other bed, he won't sleep with me then either. This weekend was the first night he has slept with me in two years.

Koshka: Trust your gut.....As far as "the truck" goes, if H wanted to get over "the truck" because it'd be best for your M if he did, then he would. Right now he doesn't seem to want to get over it.

I agree.

Al Anon could be wonderful for you.

For some reason, I feel about this the way I felt about counseling before my A. Like it is somehow a negative thing. I don't want to do anything that would make me lose credibility with H and I feel like AlAnon at this stage would do that. He would be confused about 'why now?' and I'm afraid I don't have any answer for him. He would see it as me holding on to past issues.

Koshka: The Middies get their commissions this week. Lots of uniforms and disrupted traffic.

Cool! Not about the traffic though! That was such an awesome experience for me.

MrsNop simple straightforward sentences. "Mommy was willing to pick up daddy at the airport but we were unable to agree on how to do it. Aren't we all glad that daddy's home?"

Why can't I think of this stuff myself? Seriously? Instead, my first thought is just 'what a jerk'.

MrsNop Have you ever expressed to him how you felt demeaned by the sex without kissing and without being able to stay in the marital bed?

Yes, I have. He has said on some level, he can see where I'm coming from. But, apparently not enough to make him want to change his perspective on the issue. He has also said that if I want sex just as much as he does, or initiate it, how can I feel demeaned or used then?

MrsNop: Hasn't he expressed the opinion that you haven't paid enough?

Indirectly. He has said things like 'you haven't shown remorse'. He has gotten angry at times when I've tried to better my situation by putting a door on the room I stay in or clean out the room. Lately, I've mentioned putting the computer that hasn't been turned on (literally) in at least 7-8 months, in the attic. I had the hard drive slicked and when I realized it was going to cost just as much to purchase windows XP practically as it would to get a new computer, I was going to buy a new one. So, I never hooked the old one up again or loaded any software on it. It's just been sitting there. But at any mention of putting it in the attic, he says no. It is instances like these that are dead give aways to me that he wants to see me suffer by not having a space of my own. There are a million other 'consequences' to my A that I live with every day. He holds steadfast to his sarcasm 'You haven't suffered, oh, you've just been soo miserable haven't you?!'

MrsNop: I wonder if there is an opportunity where you can ask him whether or not he feels better after these episodes. Whether or not they satisfy his sense of being repaid.

I seriously don't know if I want to know the answer to that. How can I want to recommit to a person who gets satisfaction from seeing me hurt?

MrsNop: I remember you saying that he has travelled a lot and at one point worked away from home for 7 weeks.

Make that 7 months.

MrsNop: I confess that I have wondered whether or not he has had his own indiscretion and is sublimating his own guilt via his anger at you. Is there any likelyhood in that?

Probably not. He cheated in all the ways he could and still have a relatively clean conscience. He used to go to strip clubs, he's got a porn habit, and had a pretty intense R with alcohol. H is not a social creature. He was a virgin when he and I got together and he was 20. Now, I know that isn't completely unheard of, but it is rare. He just doesn't have the social aspects down enough to have a real live affair. But who knows what has gone on with web cams and misc porn sites. That, I would not put past him one bit.

Karen: Whatever you do and how you feel, know that you have cyber friends here that understand

Thanks Karen.

Stigmata: Been lurking a bit on you and just wanted to give you a thumbs up on your very evident shift to stop enabling behaviors that weren't working in the past in favor of standing up for your integrity without falling into your ever so ingrained pattern of losing anger control.

Thanks Stig. I feel like this has been a real accomplishment for me. It has caused some serious issues with H, but I feel at this point I have to do the things that are going to allow me to remain in the M and that means acting on my own behalf. If I keep going against my own sense of right and wrong, I will eventually get to the point where I hate him so much that leaving is the only feasible option. I've been really, really close to that as it is. I do want to save my M, but not at any cost. I'm glad that there are a few others that see where I am coming from.

Stigmata: Heather: H, the sky is blue.

H: No it isn't.

Heather: Yes it is.

H: If you say so. Whatever. You're always right after all.


I had to laugh when I read this. Someone else, I can't remember who offhand, said something similar to the effect of if I said I was a woman and H said I wasn't, would I argue such a silly point? I thought to myself 'ok, point taken'. So, I had a chance to practice this. H said something to argue against something I said. I asked him a question and then I said "You know what forget it. You don't need to answer that. The absurdity of me even discussing this is similar to me stating that I am a woman and then you saying 'no you're not'." He said "An *honest* woman? That's another story." He didnt' miss a beat.

Stigmata: Not until he "sees" that one big thing to show him you are commited to him and have proven your remorse. I'll give you a hint. It has 4 wheels and is sitting out in your driveway right now.

I disagree with the 'one big thing' idea. It isn't one big thing. He wants me to consider his feelings in all that I do and then act according to how he feels. If I act on my own feelings, then I am selfish, not committed, haven't changed, etc. There isn't one big thing. It's everything. It's karate. It's my business dinner. It's staying at a hotel. It's countless other things that have happend over the months and continue to happen that makes him sure I am not 'committed' to him.

Stigmata: I can just picture myself walking with x into the OB GYN's office. Um, yes, doctor, we are here because I would like to exchange this vagina in for a brand new one. I won't touch it.

OMG, that is hilarious Hilarious but not. But did you read where Koshka said that if H wanted to do what was best for the M, he would let some of these things go. H doesn't want to do what's best for the M, he doesn't *want* to get over it. I think there is a lot of truth to that. Affairs are no easy thing to get past, but if you want to get past it, you will. If you don't, you won't. I have not done every single thing H thinks I should do. But every disagreement is not proof of a lack of commitment. I've told him that we did not always agree prior to my A and it is not reasonable to expect we will agree on everything now. It is also not reasonable to expect that if we disagree that I will bend to his will every single time. I am my own person with my own thoughts and my own opninions and my OWN FREE WILL. He wants to take that away from me and he wants to let me help him feel justified in doing it. No way. BTDT with him, will not go back whether his behavior is 'justified' this time or not.

Stigmata: I hate to see you have to do something so senseless and otherwise avoidable, Heather, but how much is your peace of mind and peace of the R worth?

I hear ya. If it was just a couple of things, I'd agree. Let's just get rid of the problems. As I've mentioned, it's not just the bed (the bed isn't the problem anyway, he just refuses to sleep with me) and the truck. It's tons of things that keep coming up that 'prove' his point. Ok, so I give on the truck. What about the bed? What about next time I have a business dinner? What about.....things go on and on. He pits him against me whenever we differ opinions. If I start giving in to 'save my M' I will be giving in forever. Guarantee it. There are too many issues to keep going against my inner compass. I really do have to trust myself because if I don't, pretty soon I won't even be able to hear my own inner voice over his.

Stigmata: And drinking all day and not eating until 1 a.m. will seriously mess with your blood sugar and brain chemistry in a not good way. Make you unbalanced.


I didn't mean to imply that he doesn't eat all day. He just doesn't eat dinner.

Stigmata: Getting your reactive anger controlled is beautiful. It used to set you all the way back to square one. Now you gotta start finding ways to kill H with kindness.

You're right, it did always set me back to square one. I agree that kindness is the best next step. It's hard for me to not have expectations. I can do it for a while and when it seems like it's 'not working', I get hopeless. You have to understand, I don't feel kind toward H. I barely love him anymore. I am only here because of our history and our kids. I want to make a new R with him, sort of start over and choose each other again. But there's very little about him that I would choose again. It is difficult for me to act like I love him and that I want to recommit under these circumstances......I just want to come to a place where we can both acknowledge that we are here for the kids, fine. Let's make the most of it. Let's try to make our R a priority and see where we can go. No promises, no guarantees. Killing him with kindness while he gets some smug satisfaction from causing me pain is practically more than I can bear for an extended time period.

Blackfoot suggested that I just be honest with myself and if I can't do what it takes, then say I can't. At this point, it seems I can't do what it will take. Not by myself anyway.