Hi Pmd, No, I made a commitment to him when we married to lose weight. I failed (through my own lack of diligence) to meet that commitment. I completely understand that, moreso even than most men, he is visually oriented, and needs a "womanly" figure to turn him on or hold his interest... (Thankfully, his idea of "womanly" is one I can meet! His standard comment on seeing most actresses and models is: "Quick! Someone buy that girl a milkshake!!" He does NOT like skinny women -- and considers anything below about size 14 to be too skinny! I CAN do that -- I just didn't.)
It's not insulting, but (I believe) a legitimate "calling to account" for my my failure to do something (lose weight). I AM losing weight now -- I am being diligent in watching my diet (where before I hadn't been, taking refuge in comfort foods as he withdrew. (Cue and counter action, just as Michele decribes it!) and I've joined the Y and do water aerobics four times a week.
NW
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
I remind myself that *IF* I wish to recover my marriage -- and thus far I do; and *IF* I wish to entice him back away from "the lizard" (the OW) -- and thus far I do; and *IF* I wish to be able to create a "new" marriage with this man with whom I am still in love -- and thus far I do -- then I CANNOT destroy his view of me... If he KNEW the snooping I have done: beyond the taping of his conversations (which I have ceased doing) that he discovered a month ago, he would lose even more trust of ME than he has... He knows I have been snooping (to that extent, at least) and agrees it's a normal and rational action on my part in view of the circumstances. He also agrees the lizard is pathological about her privacy.
It does NOT help that the lizard is advising him on using spysweepers on his computer, and setting up hidden email accounts for him and just generally teaching him to be more devious than I *think* he is naturally.... (I don't know -- I may be totally naive about him and he may be plotting and completely devious in himself; and I should mistrust him even further than I do -- but I've known him for nine years, and deviousness is unpleasant to him (he has been saying, lately, that he really regrets "agreeing" to go along with her plots (and maybe he does... but I'm not trusting to that either!!) )
Still -- I must protect *myself*! If I let my emotions run free, and triumphantly snarl at him all the things I know -- I deny myself the future use of those methods and things! If he knows how I am gaining my knowledge of his lying, then I cannot continue to do those things to gain that knowledge -- and I need that WAY more than I need the emotional satisfaction of screaming the truth at him.
Since I am looking at TWO YEARS before he divorces me, I need to be able to retain any advantage I can possibly have... It is my fervent hope (right now) that he and I will recover our marriage. However, if not, then I need to negotiate from the strongest possible position -- and that means knowing as much as I possibly can about his double-dealings -- and the lizard's! -- when my lawyer and I come to negotiate the settlement! I must maintain cordial and comfortable relations with him, and access to his financial records and all (I'm a kept wife; I haven't worked for pay in nine years.)
So, it's a strategic matter. I CANNOT 'blow' my edge by blowing my horn! Not yet... maybe not ever! Do I take great comfort in my revenge fantasies? In exposing the lizard? In sending her tapes of his orgasms with me and pointing out how he has been lying to her too? Oh you betcha!! [
But I probably won't even get to do that. He would find out (she would tell him, even if he has broken it off with her and remained with me) and that would... again... damage his view of me. And I also think fondly of sending her the tapes if he DOES end up with her -- but then I remember that I'll be relying on him for alimony for (I hope) ten years... (Oh well, the last fantasy is... after he kills himself (still a very strong probability), I will send the tapes to her just to pay her back for hurting me. Not a very satisfying fantasy... but {shrug} beggers can't be choosers! )
And yes,I recognize that revenge hurts me as much as anyone else, and is a bad idea -- and I'd probably not do anything unless pushed into a corner: IF he decides he "has" to divorce me sooner than two years to go be with the lizard, then I will use whatever "blackmail" I need to -- even knowing he might then choose to kill himself (I'm 99% sure he won't kill me!). (As the lizard said (!!) to us both: "better a widow than a divorcee"!)
I HAVE told him that I am no longer "amenable" to manipulation by his suicide talk. That whether or not he chooses to kill himself is up to him. I VERY much want him alive. I think suicide is a damned-fool thing to do! But I am no longer going to allow him to shut me up, or stop me from discussing or doing something, because of his desire for death. If the lizard isn't also being manipulated with that threat (and she isn't -- he has made clear to me; he says as long as he has her he has no need to kill himself {eye roll}), then I have no reason to allow myself to be so manipulated either. (I don't think he expected that! He DOES still ask me now and again to put a bullet in hIs brain -- and I point out I am NOT going to go to jail for him!! )
(I know this-all sounds weird and melodramatic... It's not. It's a facet of his world view, his view of himself, and his life-long depression which he vehemently and staunchly denies exists... {sigh} I have always known, since I met him, that he was suicidal. Usually rather passively, sometimes more ... desperately... It's who he is. (No, I cannot get him to take drugs or go to counseling -- he won't.)
NW
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
I posted the following two messages by mistake to my open public list. The chances that the lizard does NOT get the emails from the list sent directly to her computer (rather than reading them online) are slim -- I'm SO glad (a friend moderator) deleted them from the list as soon as she saw them -- but that was probably too late anyway. (She said they were there for apparently three hours.)
Now, Neo doesn't know if he even wants to live as long as the cruise, or his birthday. He is, he says, empty. (Not histrionics, he's merely depressed and empty. There is no point in going on, he has lost any little glimmer of hope he and self-respect he had.) By my mistake, he says, I have lost him entirely. He doesn't know if he's going to kill himself before the cruise or after, he doesn't know anything except that he has lost the foundation of his life -- that not lying was the foundation of his self-respect and he has been exposed as a liar and as a fool. (This despite lying himself into a corner with me these past several months!!) (I cannot get him to acknowledge that he's NOT a fool, that he merely misjudged that ANY woman he would be attracted to would be intelligent enough to work out a keylogger -- I knew of it, and SO DID THE LIZARD!)
He said (later) that the lizard was right about the keylogger, and he was wrong about me -- but, after his initial surge of great anger (which he didn't even show), he understands that I was acting in my own protection -- and that's part of the fundamental problem with me that he can't live with: that "most" women would neither know of, or know how to get and use, a key logger... (I think he's wrong.)
I've asked him if he can hang on till his birthday -- to go out "in a blaze of glory like his heros" -- and he said he doesn't know. How about as a kindness to me and a memorial to his dad (for the company) -- he's not feeling particularly kindly toward me right now.
So I don't know. He says the cruise will be an empty experience, because he's empty. Out of the frying pan, into the suicidal fire... Sh|t.
Anyway, the messages follow below...
============An odd update though: Interestingly, he just came upstairs, and said let's get dressed and go through our usual Tuesday activities.. He says he knows better than to allow his state of mind to determine his course of action (YAY!!) and so we will proceed, for now, with life as usual, for now...
Oh god -- this roller-coaster is making me want to throw up!! ==================
However, when I asked him about his 'personality flip" a day or so later, he said it was because he had "decided" -- and was going to do what was necessary to prepare for the "transition" -- that is, prepare the company, which he wishes to continue as a memorial to his father, for handing off on his death to me to continue.
So, I don't know what to do -- just keep on trying to DB the heck out of him (and me!) I think the cruise this next week will be a welcome break from the drudgery and upset of the past months.. Hopefully he will begin to feel some positve feelings... It's all I CAN do!
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
This was the first message I posted (MIS-posted!) to my public (well, 136-member) list – but the lizard IS a secret member of that list, so in all likelihood -- she read it.... That’s good and bad... but it was definitely unintended!! (She has ceased any contact with him at all – that’s the good. I’ve lost ALL chance of monitoring his emails; he’s removed the logger and put up his own tracking – so he knows if I touch his computer... that’s part of the bad.)
====================
The lizard wrote Neo: Could you possibly read her posts on her yahoo group? She is saying a lot of stuff, including a message which made you sound really GROSS talking about you stinking to high heaven and not washing every day: could she be trying to put me off you? At any rate, would you mind reading what she writes, not for your benefit, but to see what she is saying, for my benefit? Because it does disturb me to read a lot of the stuff she says about you. It does sometimes sound as though you two are on the verge of patching things up (and certainly engaging with each other in husband-wife-like ways, if nothing else) and when she is not saying alarming stuff of that sort, she is making you sound absolutely revolting! Would you mind reading it and maybe calling her on stuff if you think I might be freaked by the stuff she is writing? Note that I am only on her list under another name and email account. I am not on it under my own name, so don't mention me even if you have me in mind. I miss you. Have you been going out as we discussed? Giving out your phone number? Any adventures to share? Do tell! ================= He answered her: What I *will* do, Darling, is provide explanations of things she has written that concern you and that you bring up to me. For example, the not washing thing was merely the consequence of my changing my deodorant to an unscented product, to please you. After several weeks of use, the new deodorant began to irritate my underarms and I had to not use *anything* for several days to let my skin heal. Nevertheless, I was relatively inoffensive, but NW has a very sensitive nose. [NW’s note: this is NOT true; it was a week+; and I didn't buy him the unscented deodorant until I got tired of him stinking the place up! It was a pretty standard depressed-person action. He refuses to recognize he’s depressed...] There has been no such issue for several weeks now, and I find it bizarre that this was aired. Also, the success of the "Plan" [NW’s note: the "Plan" to make me think they had broken up.] has had the "unintended consequence" of making me "available" again. I have "lost" you to [previous boyfriend], and NW knows that you are irreplaceable in my heart with another woman other than the Neo’s Wife of the illusion with which I long ago fell in love. So, though she is of one mind in understanding and planning for divorce, she is of another in hoping to have me back, as reflected in what she must be dreaming about and writing as imagined fact to the list. I periodically review the prospects for the future with her that involve divorce no matter what, but I can't stop her from putting the best public face on things on the list for the sake of her professional and personal aspirations.
My love, *your* feelings come before my own up to the point where I feel insulted or humiliated, and I find the task of monitoring this gossip humiliating in prospect. And my monitoring of the list and even obliquely reacting to anything therein places me at risk of betraying *your* evident concerns. She knows me far well enough to know that I have no reason of my own for, and in fact recoil from the idea of, doing as you suggest, and that *I* don't give a ____ about what is said about me in such a venue. I will ask you to allow me to confine my rectification of the situation to explanations and assurances from me as to issues that you encounter and raise from reading. I could wish that your female curiousity and anxiety could be contained by avoiding the list and the disturbance altogether, but I know that not-knowing is worse than knowing, where something of this is going on.
=================
[Then I wrote to a friend on my private support list after quoting the above:] ================= But then he got annoyed because she's ALWAYS been 'after' him to explain what I've said, to clarify and make her feel better about what I've written and so on... He feels accused and it humiliates him to have to defend himself to her -- esp. when she loses her composure toward him and insults him and so on....
I'm ALL for that! <G> I've even thought of writing how he and I watched the second season of Deadwood cuddled on the couch (I'd leave out the [sexual contact] he got, spurred by the scenes in the show <VBG>!) -- that would REALLY piss her off/freak her out -- since he did the same with her (He wrote and sent to her: "And I had a chance to pick up the Second Season of "Deadwood". Most enjoyable, but for missing being able to touch you while watching." {frown} But it would fer shure blow her up to hear he did it with me too!
I know -- revenge is useless, and a fantasy I only get to dream of, not act on... {sigh} ============
My friend answered me: ========== (quoting Lizard): Would you mind reading it and maybe calling her on stuff if you think I might be freaked by the stuff she is writing?
(Friend): Would you mind a) reading everything she's writing about you and about the two of you, b) reading my mind to see what would upset me, c) picking a fight with her about it, and d) reporting back before I get more upset? In that way I will get to control you from England and feed off of your humiliation, which may or may not appease my reptilian appetite. And I can then pick apart and criticize what you say as well as what she is saying, so I can deviously drive a wedge between you and try to control not only you but the course of your marriage.
ROFLWMP!!! It's pitiful, seen from this angle. And of course her real agenda is to increase his pain so that he is even more vulnerable. She is a real energy vampire.
This is the real reason you should refuse to acknowledge her. Every time you discuss her you bring her energy into the house. Throw her the f--- out, energetically. Scuse the French.
I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. ==========
Tonight I wrote: He said at dinner tonight (with [male friend] -- we had a ball -- for FIVE hours! Till the restaurant closed!) that he saw his first "slasher" movie with her in England. (I assume she OWNS it, cause I doubt you can rent it.) He said she really liked it, but HE was disgusted by it; it was just a guy wandering around with a straight razor cutting people up, and there was a guy whose head was forced through a banister -- and then the bad guy slammed piece of furniture against him and ripped his head off and the camera was focused on his "body" spurting blood all over-- he said there was just lots of blood throughout the movie -- and it really made him wonder about this woman he loves... He just thought it was yucky... SHE apparently loved it. (!!!!!) (Eww!) ===================
My friend answered: >re: the slasher movie (eewww is right): That alone should tell him she's really deranged. Not dragging a full string of fish.
Neo’s Wife: {shrug} The poor thing is an addict. He KNOWS his "drug" is destructive for him, wrong for him, (icky, even!), and yet he cannot avoid his desire for it. He RESENTS that addiction (and even that "drug"! for its effect(s) on him, and its hold on him), but does not know how to break free. He says he has tried, he so dislikes being "hooked" -- and is unable to "will" himself free of his addiction. {eye roll}
Poor rotted oak... He thinks he should be able to "will" his emotions under his control and yet, here's Pat Allen's "yin/feelings-centered older man" (destroying his life by oxytocin bonding: poor Neo insists he has plenty of testosterone, and yet he is "hooked" just like ALL the older men as they lose their testosterone and become more estrogen driven... Geez, Pat Allen even describes it in her book: all he's missing is the red convertible!! (And he's been looking covetously at the little Honda Civic sports car! {eye roll})
Yes, everything about her is ... suspect... She really is a strange one, and he is finding her to be MORE strange than maybe he's comfortable with...
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Our dear (male) friend, (who has a brain, and a depth and breath of knowledge nearly as large as Neo's, albeit in a partially different area and specialization) ... wrote me this morning:
================== [I]>12. But above all things respect thyself. >I was rereading this letter, and the injunction from Pythagoras that I repeat above seems the most important to remember and live by. I hope you are doing well,[/I] ==================
I answered him: ================== Thank you, my dear, for your warmth and good wishes -- it really helps!. Mostly, I am doing okay. Sometimes I am not. Honesty is so important to me; trust and integrity -- so, being completely unsure about the honesty of the man I have meshed my life with is wearing on me -- all the time... We occasionally talk about whether he is "playing" me, playing the lizard or playing us both... He SAYS he's telling me the truth, and having to lie to her (she's a paranoid hysteric, in my jaundiced view <G>). At the very least, she's a real paranoid, whose fears of ... me (!!)... lead her to refuse contact with him until he is divorced; except then she set up a hidden email address for him and wants him to read and ... defend himself... against what-all I write about him on my [public] advice list (which is where I met her -- and where she stubbornly -- and stealthily -- remains.)
(*I* of course still snoop on him, and read his emails to and from her. I justify (rationalize?) that I need to both keep an eye on their plotting (most esp. HER plotting that he claims he has stopped participating in, as he felt extremely bad about himself (in re: his fundamental belief: "the world is governed by lies and violence" – and so his lying is esp. painful for him... (real/true) "MEN" don't lie... and yet there he was ... is?... lying his tail off.)
He is also coming around -- (or so he says {eye roll}) -- to the absolute FACT that she is both NOT the right woman for him, and that his 'picture' of her, his addiction to her, really has not-so-much to do with HER! (And oddly, he says (and I think truthfully) that he is telling her lies -- because he can't deal with her raving paranoia, and insults, and affronts to his dignity and so on... He says he and I are able to talk honestly to each other (and on many things, this is so -- I just don't know where that stops!); whereas he must lie and manipulate her -- which, I see in his messages to her, is so. (But alas, he is still entirely addicted to her, and sees no way to break free... But he IS (seemingly) coming around to the possibility (or is he lying to me again?) of recreating a relationship with me; he just doesn't know how. (He does not know what the future holds -- he can, he says, not see beyond about two weeks ahead in his life...)
[The bit about the slasher movie from the first message, above.]
The problem is he is still entirely addicted: he says he has tried, as a thought experiment, to STOP loving her, to stop needing her, to stop depending on her to keep him alive -- and he just can't. His HEAD knows she's wrong -- but his heart is not there yet... Poor rotted oak -- he has never before (in his LIFE!) had an... well, not unrequited, but unachievable... love. But he is also becoming sure she does NOT love him -- may not even be capable of love -- and -- well, on a positive note: he said the ten days with the lizard reminded him of several of MY virtues for him: most esp. the constancy of my love for him; a thing which he feels he cannot live without. He CANNOT live without a woman in his life, in his house (he said to a acquaintance of ours (an interviewer, who was re-interviewing us for her academic study: on monogamy in marriage (HA!) ) that if he went two weeks without a woman in his house, he'd kill himself...
On the other hand -- he's being kind nearly always (and he's SO depressed, which tears my heart -- my mom says of me: well, you always DID pick up wounded animals -- and wounded MEN -- and try to heal them!); he and I are getting along as we always have: well and comfortably... (Amazingly, there's even some sexual contact -- which we have not done in 8 years! We cuddle on the couch and watch movies, he still holds my hand whenever we're out-and-about, he even pets my hair sometimes when he passes by...)
We're preparing, with some pleasure and hope, for our early July Alaska cruise... We're both excited about it, and will enjoy it very much. (He's done it before, but is looking forward to it, esp. the salmon bake! <G> I've always wanted to see Alaska!)
So -- am I respecting myself? Yes, I think so. I told him I was no longer amenable to suasion by his discussions of his suicide. He will kill himself as HE chooses, and I have no control of that. He KNOWS I do not want him dead, that I think suicide is the coward's way out; he KNOWS that I love him and wish to recreate our marr... or, rather, create a new marriage with him based on honesty.
He has promised (me) not to kill himself before his birthday in Oct. Or to go try to find "an erotic/romantic connection" with an "escort" {aggrieved frown} Although, after our long discussion of him chasing escorts (which, by the way, is part of HER plotting to convince me they have broken up -- she wants him to chase, and sleep out with, them so I *believe* he's no longer seeing her -- but is STILL divorcing me; so she can have him in two years when we divorce: did I mention she's paranoid about me?! {eye roll}), he decided he is not willing (yet) to chase escorts, because the only woman he wants is her... {sigh} (Tell a heroin addict to chase meth: {shrug} his addiction is to her. Thankfully...)
But he says he is aching to die in his 56th year (that is, after this Oct birthday) -- all his heros died in theirs: Julius Caesar, Nietzsche... It's the "right" year for him to die... {eye roll}.
I am still working on detaching myself from my enmeshment with him... Whether or not he survives, whether or not he divorces me, whether or not I end up having to leave for my own sanity and emotional stability, are all yet TBD. Time is the only (possible) cure, and so we must make our way through time. THAT is hard... there is no forcing the Tao, taking no action until its right time... (And I HATE that! <VBG>)
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
So, my snooping - as all you warned me -- has caused WAY more problems than it helped... (And yet, and yet...he and I have discussed it -- and I NEEDED to be kept focused on his lying, to NOT fall into believing his lies... Not believing from his gentleness and kindness toward me and his sexual contact, and his (for the first time) open honesty, that he was turning back toward me. I HAD to keep being faced with his complete addiction to her so I did not get too much hope (some hope, yes, not so much I forget he's, for now, planning on divorcing me...)
He understands that. He can see my point. He is still very disturbed by his OWN lying, and now also by mine...
Well, we can only keep on as we are... Sadly,
Neo's WIfe
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Please, don't think me too insensitive, because I know it takes all kinds, and to each his or her own, but as I keep reading your thread, you seem like you are taking a rational (as much as possible anyway) approach to this otherwise rational man doing irrational things. It seems like that is NOT the case here.
Your H seems like a irrational man doing even more irrational things and your "rational" reations seem VERY out of place.
Again, forgive me if I have this all wrong, but your H seems to have some SERIOUS problems that extend WAY beyond a normal MLC or cheating issue. His CONSTANT threat of suicide (several times you have posted that he has threatened this) and the "Your (ow) feelings are always more important than my own" stuff suggests that H is not anywhere close to being someone who could even participate in a marriage that DB suggests we try to have where each member of the partnership is responsible for and DESIRING of their own happiness. You seem to be ok with this idea but will he ever be? You seem to be quite calm and accepting DB as a pretty good thing to have as part of your life, but I am questioning whether DB can work in the face of someone who is so far off the charts in terms of codependency and what SEEMS to be (in my COMPLETELY lay-person's opinion) serious mental health issues (mainly the suicide threats).
If he were to return to you like he is, and from what you have said he's been that way long before the whole affair thing happened I think, do you think you could carry on knowing what you know now about the importance of caring for YOU first before you care for others?
I have been, in some ways (not the suicide part) like your H. I have said those kinds of things like "I am only doing this for you. I don't really care one way or another, what YOU want is most important to me honey." or "I just want to be with you and nothing else matters to me." or "As long as you're happy, I'm happy."
I would NOT say ANY of those things now because I know what I'm really doing is putting the burden of my life, my happiness on my W and that's not only not fair to her, but not fair to me either.
I am trying not to be too harsh, but the longer this goes on, and the more I read about this, lifestyle differences aside, I am confounded at why you keep acting (and pardon me if it's just getting lost in the translation of your thoughts to post) as if what he's doing is completely normal aside from the cheating part. Like I said, reading your posts, he seems like a pretty unstable guy that could use some professional help right now to deal with his own issues, let alone his issues with you.
Once (last time I swear) again, forgive me for this if I am just way off base. I know this is a trying time for you AND him and that can affect people in many ways, causing them to do and say things that the outside world may never understand. I just fear for him, for obvious reasons, and you by association because it seems like someone who thinks such dark thoughts on such a regular basis is capable of extending those thought to others in his life if you know what I mean.
I am not suggesting you file for D, or abandon your DB efforts, but to suggest that "DBing the heck out of him" may help fix some of his issues seems a bit, well, weak. I think he needs to address his issues, and professionally if at all possible. I think you can and SHOULD continue DBing, as it is something that seems to fit YOUR life well, but also accept that his situation may need more than that.
Please, take care of yourself and if I need to be corrected on this, please do so. It was hard for me to write this, but I mean only to help.
Quote: Please, don't think me too insensitive, because I know it takes all kinds, and to each his or her own, but as I keep reading your thread, you seem like you are taking a rational (as much as possible anyway) approach to this otherwise rational man doing irrational things. It seems like that is NOT the case here.
You’re proven many many times over that you’re not insensitive: in fact you’re extremely wise and kind – so no worries, dear Grasshopper. Your advice is always very welcome. Yes, I am trying to be the rational one here; as my H is being irrational. (ONE of us has to try to be, and he’s not capable of it right now!) (He truly IS otherwise/other times a rational man... the suicide thing is (in my eyes anyway) standard for a clinically depressed man with his world view(s)– even though he refuses to acknowledge, accept, or consider himself depressed.
Quote: Your H seems like a irrational man doing even more irrational things and your "rational" reactions seem VERY out of place.
I find him to be (generally) very rational, save only his few... quirks... I am sure you realize I cannot possibly present him ‘wholly’ in short messages about only one area of our lives. Obviously, the stuff I am presenting here shows only his difficult and problematic side. I’ve lived very happily with him for nine years, and find him to be wonderful and a great husband – with those few quirks...
Quote: Again, forgive me if I have this all wrong, but your H seems to have some SERIOUS problems that extend WAY beyond a normal MLC or cheating issue.
He does indeed – and always has. Do I wish he were never suicidal? All the time. But then, I wish I were thinner and richer; if wishes were horses..., eh?
Quote: His CONSTANT threat of suicide (several times you have posted that he has threatened this)
{shrug} It’s a part of who he is, and has always been (he swallowed turpentine as a teen – this is not some weird new facet of his personality but an old and familiar one). I understand his reasoning, and it’s sound. I think suicide is taking the coward’s way out, but his reasoning is actually rational, if one accepts his premises. I do accept his premises, I understand his reasoning. I just prefer that he override his “reasons” for it, and live on in the hopes that things will get better. That’s MY view, not his.
Quote: and the "Your (ow) feelings are always more important than my own" stuff suggests that H is not anywhere close to being someone who could even participate in a marriage that DB suggests we try to have where each member of the partnership is responsible for and DESIRING of their own happiness.
He is fulfilled when his wife (previous or me) is happy. He doesn’t remember a time in his life when he was happy. (I mentioned, didn’t I, that he is depressed? {wry G})
Quote: You seem to be ok with this idea but will he ever be? You seem to be quite calm and accepting DB as a pretty good thing to have as part of your life, but I am questioning whether DB can work in the face of someone who is so far off the charts in terms of codependency and what SEEMS to be (in my COMPLETELY lay-person's opinion) serious mental health issues (mainly the suicide threats).
I happen to AGREE he has serious mental health issues. I have asked and tried to convince him to try drugs, or therapy, or even “nutritional supplements” – he flat out refuses. He gets offended and angry when I try to, as he says, “medicalize” his situation. I am quite calm about the fact that he has serious mental health issues, that I love him and wish to stay with him, and that DBing is the only option I see to try to make that happen. I cannot “make” him get mentally healthy, nor force him to get help to try to get healthy. (I compare it to cancer – if my beloved husband got cancer – would I dump him as hopeless? Same thing in my mind.)
Quote: If he were to return to you like he is, and from what you have said he's been that way long before the whole affair thing happened I think, do you think you could carry on knowing what you know now about the importance of caring for YOU first before you care for others?
Yes. It IS in my best interests to stay married to him, to keep him at the center of my life... Okay, not exactly at the center – because I am and have always been the center of my own life. One of the things our marriage counselor (from several years ago) stresses is that your mate, your partner, must add to an already-whole life. You must first make your own life whole, (as I had done, having decided that I was never going to marry) and then to be a good candidate for marriage, the other person must add to your life. My H does just that, and always has. My life is whole, and if we end up divorced, or he ends up killing himself, my life will be whole then too. I will miss him TERRIBLY, but I will (most likely) find a new love, and will definitely find a different life.
Quote: I have been, in some ways (not the suicide part) like your H. I have said those kinds of things like "I am only doing this for you. I don't really care one way or another, what YOU want is most important to me honey." or "I just want to be with you and nothing else matters to me." or "As long as you're happy, I'm happy." I would NOT say ANY of those things now because I know what I'm really doing is putting the burden of my life, my happiness on my W and that's not only not fair to her, but not fair to me either.
I struggled with that early on– because he is not a happy man, and I felt I should “help” him be happy. I finally learned to leave him be – he is NOT a happy kinda guy, and I cannot make him be so. He DOES take pleasure in my happiness, and that has to do. I hope that someday he’ll experience happiness of his own, but it’s not MY path, not MY burden. I can only live my life, enjoy and try to share MY happinesses, and let him learn to or not as he chooses to. (Yes, it breaks my heart that he is so unhappy – but can anyone “make” someone else happy?)
Quote: I am trying not to be too harsh, but the longer this goes on, and the more I read about this, lifestyle differences aside, I am confounded at why you keep acting (and pardon me if it's just getting lost in the translation of your thoughts to post) as if what he's doing is completely normal aside from the cheating part. Like I said, reading your posts, he seems like a pretty unstable guy that could use some professional help right now to deal with his own issues, let alone his issues with you.
{shrug} I agree; we’d have a better chance of making this marriage survive if only he would get some real help. He won’t. So, all I can do is all I can do. That includes DBing the heck out of him, as I wrote; and also preparing for my life without him if he kills himself. Fingers crossed, the DBing works, if not, I’ll survive.
Quote: Once (last time I swear) again, forgive me for this if I am just way off base. I know this is a trying time for you AND him and that can affect people in many ways, causing them to do and say things that the outside world may never understand. I just fear for him, for obvious reasons, and you by association because it seems like someone who thinks such dark thoughts on such a regular basis is capable of extending those thought to others in his life if you know what I mean.
No, I’m not worried (too much) about my own safety... I have made my lawyer aware of the two threats he has made against me, and made HIM aware that my lawyer and family know. (I didn’t and don’t really believe his threats – they seemed too “practiced’ – as if he and the lizard set it up before he came home.)
Quote: I am not suggesting you file for D, or abandon your DB efforts, but to suggest that "DBing the heck out of him" may help fix some of his issues seems a bit, well, weak. I think he needs to address his issues, and professionally if at all possible. I think you can and SHOULD continue DBing, as it is something that seems to fit YOUR life well, but also accept that his situation may need more than that.
DBing won’t fix his issues with depressions or the desire for death. It MAY fix the issues with my weight, and my demeanor problems that made him fall out of love with me. It may enable him to fall back in love with me, which will ease his desire for death. (What will address his depression? I don’t know. I doubt it. I HOPE some day to get through to him about getting help.)
Quote: Please, take care of yourself and if I need to be corrected on this, please do so. It was hard for me to write this, but I mean only to help.
I’m sorry you found it difficult. I SO value your discussions – you are wise and experienced. (Sorry, you’re experienced, you know? But I’m sorry for us all here, struggling!) I am working this stuff out daily; things SEEM to be better – but how can I tell what’s real and what’s memorex? Only by living through it and looking back on it. By dissecting my feelings, and his words and actions, by DBing to the best of my ability, and – as I have said many times to him: playing for time. I want him to LIVE long enough to see me change, to see if I can become once again, the woman he loves.
What other goal SHOULD I have?
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
The cruise was absolutely wonderful; we had a wonderful time, met wonderful people, and really enjoyed ourselves!
We’ve been back now for about 3 weeks, I guess, and I struggled a good bit when we first got back: like, starting in the car on the way home from the airport! I was overwhelmed by memories and bad feelings about the lizard, and his feelings and – well, a lot of the cruise good feelings were swamped by worry and unhappiness... I mentioned, briefly in the car, that none of my questions had gone away... That I was not going to bother him about such questions, but I wanted him to know they were still there: was he still going to divorce me? Was he going to try to contact her, had his feelings toward me changed and so on... That all of that had come flooding back, but I was going to leave him alone about it...
Within a week or so, he had reserved our December cruise to the Caribbean. (!) He mentioned that it was a refundable reservation; I think I asked something about did that mean he was going to live past October? But within a week he had also bought air tickets and reserved the night-before hotel. He says she has not been in contact with him at all; I sort-of believe him... Although since I spend two hours every Mon-Th doing the Y, they could be talking then – or they could be emailing and since I no longer have access to his computer I wouldn’t know... But I was concerned about that, and since he had written her a month ago that he would “make sure” I had no access to the business phone bill (on which was the record of his calls to her, which I had discussed angrily with him), I was stressed.
The phone bill came, and he left it out on his computer desk for a day, on top of other papers (and I wondered if it was so I would look)... It eventually disappeared; I awoke in the middle of the night one night, thinking I heard talking downstairs (where the office phone is) so I went downstairs, and since I was there (and no one else was <wry G>) I looked it over – no phone calls to England. So, they are seemingly not in contact by phone – unless she is calling him, and I expect she’s not – she really IS a raving paranoid, and I expect my mis-posted messages drove her off permanently -- or at least until he is actually divorced... (Hard to stop being paranoid myself, eh?)
So, we’re proceeding with life as it was, in seemingly most ways... He is engrossed in writing on a couple of forums he used to spend hours on; work is normal (he has never particularly liked work, but it pays the bills...), our lives seem like they were before the whole thing... He is open to finding a social connection -- but when I offer a book club, toastmasters, the Y for him too – he rejects it... I discussed this with him once, that everything I offer as a possibility for him to gain some social connection, he turns down...He said he’s willing to consider whatever I find – but I pointed out he was turning down whatever I offered, so it may be that he will have to suggest something. I have thought of starting my own “non-fiction” book club – which would read and discuss books he is interested in. (I’d really enjoy that too!)
I have not broached the subjects of how he feels, the future, or whatever... I am continuing to DB as well as I can – and doing pretty good at it, it seems! He said I had not “misbehaved” at all on the cruise: that is, I had not “acted like a man,” or been authoritarian with him, so that is a good sign! I’m noticing a (physical) difference (YAY!) from the aerobics at the Y, and so is he; and I’m dressing better and more femininely, which he appreciates. So, I don’t know anything solid yet in terms of results or the future, but I do think it’s going reasonably well...
I also don’t know if I’m deluding myself (or he’s deluding me) but I must continue on as Michele suggests, as it is the only option. I have no desire or intent to leave; he is passive about leaving or staying (or so it seems) and so I must just wait him out. Either we WILL create a new marriage, or not – I can’t force it, I can only work toward it, which is also working toward a new life for myself, either with him (I hope) or without him (I hope to prevent).
Neo's Wife
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
I was re-reading your last post to me before I realize it's been a month since you posted last. I am glad to see things going well for you. That's about all I can say unless things change, please keep up the PMA and hopefully H will join you, in mind AND body, in getting a new life going.
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