Mojo wrote: "I was wondering what your story was- as in "Why in the heck did she get back together with H after hot sex during separation?". I assumed it was mostly due to the fact that you have young children. So, your lover was the "no talk-all cock" type, huh. My sister and I have frequently discussed the odd fact that some guys who seem sensitive and intelligent outside of bed can be complete clods sexually and vice versa. Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't any men around who are good both in and out of bed. I am confident that this is the case because there are definitely lots of guys who suck in both instances. Though, unfortunately, my field of data is limited due to the fact that I never f*cked anyone over the age of 25 except my H."
I felt the same way at first. Why am I getting back together with H? It has a lot more than the kids to do with it, although that is a major factor. I think of my H as my best friend, also something hard to find in a mate. Of the two times I feel like I have really been “in love” in my life, I had a strong friendship base with each of them. Meaning that I was able to have an emotional, intellectual connection with them, very similar world views, interests, etc. One was my H and one was my boyfriend thru college. They were soooo different though too, which I find interesting. With my ex-boyfriend, we had a very volatile R. We would go for weeks having these amazing discussions about life and intellectual topics and at the same time have this amazing SL. But we also clashed in our temperaments I guess because we were constantly breaking up and getting back together. It was very passionate but with a strong friendship base at the same time. We wanted to be friends after college but we knew that our sexual chemistry would be too “dangerous” in a platonic R long-term. We eventually drifted apart when I started dating H. H was everything I wanted in terms of intellect, interests, humor, and very important at the time, stability. We went out for almost 2 years without one fight! VERY different then my previous experience so I figured we were meant to be. The SL aspect, like I have stated, was never passionate. That part came back to bite us in the azz later on but it is getting sorted out at this time. So I know there are people out there Mojo who can meet many of our needs. All of them? Very rare. You need to be willing to work with the R/M you are in and come to some acceptance of that, otherwise, like you have been contemplating, it may be time to get out. But then what? So you find a R like I did while separated and sure it meets lots of sexual needs, but you are missing some major factors that can make a R work. And lets not forget we transfer most of our own issues onto any new R/M so simply leaving one M, does not mean the next one will be any different, without problems, etc.
Well, in Mojo's case, I'm not hearing the intellectual/emotional/best friend connection with her H like you have LFL. The only positive thing she says about their R is the shared parenting.
Brian wrote: “This is a completely different spin from what I had interpreted you as saying before. It sounds to me that even in the early stages, the physical R did give you something emotional. It addressed your “trigger spot at the time”. Therefore, it was not meaningless purely physical sex. My question is really, how can a woman ML to her H and not get a high level of emotional satisfaction from it?”
I don’t know how sex with a new R partner can ever be “just sex.” It certainly did give me something emotional. Like I stated, I felt wanted, desired, sexy. I felt good about myself in that arena for the first time in years! It was very powerful, much more so than all the O’s the R could have given me. So right, it’s not the physical sex act but the emotional response to the sex act that made the R “work” for me at the time. As far as having sex with a spouse, or any person in a long-term R/M, I think it is quite common to lose the “high level of emotional satisfaction”. You are talking about “in love” feelings here? Those go away in most long-term R. The love can endure but getting an emotional charge from the sex is just very different in short-term vs long-term R. This was discussed previously in our biological influence threads. This is why EC and SEX are sooo hard to keep going in most M, let alone the troubled M’s. I have to keep wondering if most of us are looking for “passion” where there either never has been any and never will, or that passion ship has sailed and it just ain’t comin back to port. Thus, the high A rate, etc. People expect some passion in their life and when they cannot find it, they blame their S. I am guilty of this somewhat myself. It’s still tempting to think, hmmm, plenty of hot guys out there who I could sleep with, but what am I as a woman really looking for hear? Not the hot sex as much as the need to feel desired, wanted, loved, etc. I feel that much more now with my H than EVER in our history of our R. So that is a big breakthrough for us. If that feeling starts to go away again, I DO fear where the M will be headed. But why worry about the future. I need to stay in the here and now. So I guess in a short answer form, women can ML to their H without the EC if they feel like the EC outside the bedroom is lacking. Why would it be different. As Lil stated, the bedroom is just a microcosm of what is going on in the rest of the R/M.
Brian wrote: “I don’t want to cross any lines, so please correct me if I do. My point here Lusty is that it sounds like your OM R might have been just the rebound that you needed after the loss of your H. Though, I am guessing the timing of the meeting meant that the R had limited growth potential that ran out as soon as your H came back. What do you think?”
I think you are right. The OM R on my end and H’s trip into “finding himself” on his end, were just what we needed to come back together again as a couple. I like to think of it as a marriage sabbatical now. We both made some huge personal growth in that time and it just happened to work (at least, so far so good). But again, we needed the basis of a VERY strong friendship and respect for each other as individuals to get to that point. The enmeshment absolutely had to stop or we knew we would be doomed to repeat history. Only time will tell what happens in the future of the LFL M. Just trying to enjoy the ride, and eating plenty of decadent chocolate along the way. Lol.
Quote: My sister and I have frequently discussed the odd fact that some guys who seem sensitive and intelligent outside of bed can be complete clods sexually and vice versa. Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't any men around who are good both in and out of bed.
Mojo, you bring up a good point. We live in such a sexually repressed society that it is not even polite to talk about sexual needs out loud. Though, like every other personality trait, people have different preferences and appetites in this area, just like in every other human trait. If that is the case, they why is that we date and marry blindly without even really giving physical needs due consideration? Why is it ok to ask some one if they like tomatoes, but it not socially acceptable to ask how many times a week a person wants to get together? I swear, this is sick joke that LD and HD people get hooked up and don’t realize it until years later.
Quote: You are talking about “in love” feelings here? Those go away in most long-term R.
Wow, I know I am only a novice with a mere 6 year R, but I really hope that statement is not true. Even when contemplating D, I have always been “in love” with my W. On the flip side, I understand getting upset with and “not liking” a partner at times, but that is the most extreme emotional shift I would think to be “normal”. I don’t want to go down a bad road, but can you explain what you mean by loosing the “in love” feelings? Also, would you say that you feel in love with your H today or has that changed?
Quote: Not the hot sex as much as the need to feel desired, wanted, loved, etc.
Ah, so are you saying that “hot sex” is a communication channel that you pick up the feelings of being desired, wanted, loved from? I am sure this is sore topic, but can you get those feelings from your H in any other way?
Quote: As Lil stated, the bedroom is just a microcosm of what is going on in the rest of the R/M.
Lil, you are my hero! I have been trying to summarize this feeling to my W for a long time. Though, this is a very direct and elegant way to phase the idea. Thanks.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
Wow, I know I am only a novice with a mere 6 year R, but I really hope that statement is not true. Even when contemplating D, I have always been “in love” with my W.
Hmmm.. maybe you are confusing "love" with "in love". I think of "in love" as that natural high you get from that person. Very common in new R. Once all the R problems start to come up and just through the passage of time, that natural high cannot be sustained. That's when you should be progressing into a more comfortable, committed love for each other. And even then, the commitment part can get iffy. Even when my H left, he still professed to loving me, so I can see how you could say that about your W even when considering D. would you say that you feel in love with your H today or has that changed? Well, I guess it's all semantics really. Yes, I love my H. Am I "in love" with him, in the sense that he gives me warm fuzzies when I see him?, no. That I just want to jump his bones when I look at him?, no. We have never been that way so I don't expect that to happen now. Again, the R was not based on passion but on falling "in love" with someone who I truly liked as a person, that I felt a bond with, that I respected, that I loved to hang around, be with, share life with. You get the idea. It was never about us having "hot sex." I think our LOVE is capable of surviving because we now CHOOSE to actively love each other. My H made a similar comment when we reconciled. He said that "us" and our M meant so much more to him now because after all that we went thru, we are still choosing to be together. He said THAT is love. Love is a choice, ultimately that you make in a long term M. You need to work at it everyday. If you don't, it fades. We learned that the hard way. So now we are hyper-vigilante to our M "status". Asking how we are doing, sharing how we are feeling about the M right now, what needs work, what have we made great progress on, how can it be better. My H is NOT a big R/M book reader, but he does have a master's in psychology so he didn't just fall off the apple cart either. We both work and/or teach in the field so I like to look at this BB as "field research." so are you saying that “hot sex” is a communication channel that you pick up the feelings of being desired, wanted, loved from? I am sure this is sore topic, but can you get those feelings from your H in any other way? Not a sore topic at all. I would agree that "hot sex" is one way I get that feeling of being desired, wanted, loved, but that is not always how it is. H and I are still only averaging about once a week sex. Two on a really good week. But our everyday language and gestures has changed quite a bit. I would say every day H will touch me in a sensual way, usually it's still in a teasing/goofy way, when I would prefer a more serious sensual/sexual advance, but I'll take the funny way since it's better than nothing. He also says things verbally to affirm my desirability and such. So things are very different in that aspect than they were years ago. I prefer the Words of Affirmation approach and Quality Time much more than Acts of Service. And frankly, we've never had a big problem with quality time either so I don't think that is my love language so to speak. I need to hear and see some affirmations from him to feel like he is meeting my needs. Surprisingly, it turns out, he is also a words of affirmation guy and so that has really helped him feel like I desire him more as well. Works both ways of course. You ask great questions Brian!
Didn't want to hog F4W thread anymore so brought Mojo's comments over here:
"Yeah, that's why it was pretty lame when I threatened to take a lover. A woman who can not co-ordinate wardrobe accessories is not capable of co-ordinating a husband and a lover. My H is the one who has threatened to leave repeatedly due to my demands. The very first Schnarchian encounter we had years ago, he started throwing stuff in a suitcase and then just last weekend he was talking about getting his own apartment. What I have to watch in myself is my previous pathetic tendency to be sick with fright when he does this and my current angry tendency to start thinking "Hey, that might just be a good idea." when he threatens. I am 90-something% certain that he wouldn't actually go through with it if left to his own devices or would end up feeling pathetic like your H if he went so far. But, now that I think about it, Cobra does have a point when he says that this kind of behavior or level of interaction is risky. During a fight, my FIL's live-in girlfriend of 10 years angrily said "Why don't you just go then?!". My FIL reacted by simply walking out, driving 1500 miles away to stay with my H and me temporarily and then marrying another woman within a few monthes."
Funny how the person that tends to threaten to leave all the time or keeps telling the other person to leave, is so shocked when it actually happens. My H's father left his mom after years of BS like that. She was devastated. Had NO insight into the damage that was going on in her M. Guess it's not that rare. Anyways, on a lighter note (sort of), wouldn't it be nice if it was socially acceptable to take a lover while M. I think I would do fairly well at that. I can manage more than one man at a time. Could even love more than one man at a time. But, alas, only men can get away with that polygamy set-up. And I'd NOT accept my H doing the same thing so I guess that alternative lifestyle won't really work for us. But in all seriousness Mojo, you have been with this man for a long time. It would be wonderful if you could work it out with him. But sometimes, like they say, love is not enough. I truly believe there are plenty of people "out there" who would be great matches for us. It is scary to start over but it also opens up a whole new world to you. I have a strong feeling if you or your H decide to actually separate that you will do just fine, maybe even thrive. Do you think you can do that within your M too?
Quote: I have a strong feeling if you or your H decide to actually separate that you will do just fine, maybe even thrive. Do you think you can do that within your M too?
That is the question, isn't it? I suppose the more differentiated I was the more I'd be inclined to answer "Yes". I think the answer really should always be "Yes" for anyone. I mean unless someone puts you in actual physical danger, you should be able to express/assert yourself to the extent that you can thrive in any relationship or even any situation. However, your struggle to grow and thrive almost certainly will effect the situation or relationship, sometimes to the point of extinction. For instance, a person can't thrive in a concentration camp but the extent to which your marriage resembles a prison is thoroughly a matter of your own perception- the guards have no guns- you are free to leave or do as you please within the compound.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Mojo I can see quite a bit of my H in you and your H pre-separation. It was basically impossible for him to see himself being happy if he stayed in the M. We were too enmeshed. The thought of being differentiated and STILL be M to each other was inconceivable. S seemed like the only way out of that mess. Maybe it was for a while. But I don't think it absolutely had to be. If both of us were able to gain a new perspective, we might have been able to accomplish it without the mess of S. But that is the hard part isn't it. Gaining a new perspective. Much easier when both people change, not just one. But like you said, you should be able to express/assert yourself in the M so that you as an Individual can still thrive even if the R is not where you want it to be. When both the M and the Individual are a mess, that leads to big problems. People tend to want to escape the M thinking that is the problem, when really the problem more likely lies in the two individual people. Fix the people and the M can survive as well as thrive. And not that we are ever "fixed", it's just a constant work in progress.
LustForLife
I was wondering why you have been so quiet lately. Threads without your brand of direct unabashed candor just are not as interesting or enlightening. Though, now that I read this thread, it sounds like you have been deep in discussion.
Quote: Anyways, on a lighter note (sort of), wouldn't it be nice if it was socially acceptable to take a lover while M.
Hmm… is your thought that you long for a more progressive M or is it that you really long to be back in a time when we were young, life was simple, and it was acceptable act as such? Out of curiosity, how were your teens and 20s? Were those thrilling and wild years for you? Alternatively, were you the committed long-term R girl back then?
I know that I look back on those years with a bit of nostalgia for sure. Still, so far, I have enjoyed my 30s even more (except for the M issues of course). I am curious to hear your take.
Quote: I need to hear and see some affirmations from him to feel like he is meeting my needs.
This seems to be a common theme in your writing, the need for affirmation. Assuming a perfect world for a minute, how would you most like affirmations conveyed? What would the mix of techniques look like?
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
Even when contemplating D, I have always been “in love” with my W. On the flip side, I understand getting upset with and “not liking” a partner at times, but that is the most extreme emotional shift I would think to be “normal”. I don’t want to go down a bad road, but can you explain what you mean by loosing the “in love” feelings? Also, would you say that you feel in love with your H today or has that changed?
