Am I Creating a SSM Part III

[heatherg]

I had a 30 min conversation with H tonight. What felt so different was the way I kept so calm. The way I *felt* so calm.

You know, he never told my Happy Mother's Day until I asked him to and even then, he just said "how'd it go?". He finally said happy mother's day and I said thank you, jeez was that so hard? He gave me some line of crap about me not being his mother and therefore it's not his place to tell me that, the kids are supposed to say it. For crying out loud, my boss even told me.....whatever.

I told him that I wasn't feeling very hopeful about our future....that I was feeling like he didn't want to be with me, that is the conclusion I keep coming to. I asked him how he felt, he said he didn't know. When I asked again in a different way, he said "I'm just me". I said "Okaay....?" So, he started off avoiding, but he did engage in the conversation....said after the 'bullsh!t' I pulled the other night (staying at the hotel) he realizes where I still stand and that I have not commited to him. He said he has decided he won't put anymore effort into this R until I can show him that I am committed. That the ball is in my court to jump in and show him that I am committed. I told him that I am committed to working together to make the M better...that I am not committed to the M the way that it is and that I won't tell him I will stay no matter how bad things are or how much he may hurt me. I will not stay no matter what. I asked him if that was what committment meant to him, saying I would stay no matter what. He didn't answer.
He mentioned not going back to counseling until he 'sees' something from me.
He was all over the place, bringing up several issues and I said "H, let's just take one thing at a time, just one thing" and he explained bringing it up by saying "But it's a shining example of what I'm talking about...". He was bringing up my refusal to pay more of the bills or 'switch bills' as proof that I am not committed to him.
He said things were not good *before* my A and now I expect them to be better than ever. I said I don't expect that things will happen overnight, but over the last two years, I haven't felt any significant forward movement. I asked him what demands I've made because he keeps referring to me "cheating on him and then making all these demands in order to remain in the M". I told him that the only demand I've made is that we start acting like a married couple or else we come to a decision to go our separate ways. He said "Yeah, start acting like a M couple, which encompasses all the little demands that go with it".
He also said that the MC has told him to stop being a 'victim'....that I've turned the tables on him and made *me* the victim. I said "H, you've been there for every session, you've heard everything I've said, in fact I don't even speak all that much, how have I 'turned the tables'"? He basically just repeated what he initially said. He said "I've even caught crap for being too close to my kids!".

I just don't know how to reach him. I wonder to myself if I can try one more time to give it my all....but then I wonder what giving it my all means. If he hasn't felt it yet, I guess I must not have it to give. I want to make it work, but I feel like no matter what I do, it's not going to be enough because every disagreement, every time I stand up for myself, every time I do something he doesn't agree with....he will use it as 'proof' that I'm not committed.

He said he hasn't seen remorse, sorrow...same thing he always says. I asked him what he will do if he *never* sees those things, what if? He said "That's just it....*I'm* fine!" He always maintains that he's fine with things the way they are.

[Cobra]

Heather,

Your mistake is in accepting his premise that you need to prove anything to him. When he says he wants you to prove your commitment, he is really saying he wants you to verify all his preconceived beliefs that you are not committed. There is no point to chasing this argument. You did do some good things though. You questioned him on his generalized statements (asking him to list your demands on him, to show how you’ve turned the tables on him). The problem is that you did not stay on-message and push your point. If you did he would have to confront his hypocrisy, but you let him off the hook.

The next time I suggest you pick one topic at a time and explore his accusations in detail, exploring and having him explain everything he accuses you of. Put forth your explanations or your recollection too. Don’t let him create a one sided picture while staying silent. Stand your ground and DEFEND YOUR REALITY! When you two have reach and agreement on that particular issue, write it down. After a few sessions like this, he might learn that his broad generalizations are not going to fly.

This will also help you to become more assertive and not take all his passive aggressive abuse. There is nothing you can say to prove to him that you are committed. He does not want to hear your commitment, he wants to punish you to satisfy his sense of revenge. I think he needs to keep this fire burning with sustained anger because it keeps you off balance and subjugated to him and therefore keeps him in control. That control helps to feed his sense of power which I think he is using to fortify his defenses and therefore protect himself and the hurt he feels. He has you in a catch 22. There is no way you can win as long as you play by his rules.

When you decide not to play his game, you are differentiating, and as Schnarch says, he will do everything in his power to pull you back down. So he starts to act up, rage, threaten to not see the counselor, etc. The more he does this the stronger the confirmation signal that you are doing the right thing. Your differentiation scares him because he sees a lack of enmeshment as loss of love and it scares him. So compensate to ease his fears by showing your love for him, your vulnerability, you intention to stay and work on the marriage as LONG AS HE IS APPROPRIATE (this is your #1 boundary for now). You need to let him know that you will no longer tolerate any kind of abuse. If he starts shouting, then just go into another room and tell him you will not speak to him until he can address you in a respectful manner.

As soon as he is under control, then WELCOME the opportunity to speak with him again, even THANK HIM if you have to for calming down so you can talk to him. Immediately reward the good behavior and do not acknowledge the bad. Your non-reactivity is a great first step. Keep it up and do not let him off the hook again. BUT BE SURE TO SHOW YOUR VULNERABILITY. This is the only way to diffuse the escalating anger in him.

You were doing so good until this last statement:

He said "That's just it....*I'm* fine!" He always maintains that he's fine with things the way they are.

You do recognize the enmeshment in this don’t you? The fact that he is denying the things you see makes you upset. You are still looking for him to reflect back to you the pain and frustration you feel. He is not being empathic to you and it hurts you. But you should be far enough along in Schnarch to recognize how undifferentiated this position of your is, right? So just stop feeling sorry for your self. It doesn’t help you. Instead, understand the defensiveness of his statement, the pain he is hiding behind it, and why it is not an attack on you at all, but rather a cry for help. Can you see that? This mindset should help you stay focused and disengaged.

[heatherg]

Your mistake is in accepting his premise that you need to prove anything to him.

I see your point. When I put myself in his position though (being cheated on) and then I hear him telling me that he does not need to prove anything to me, I think it sounds incredibly uncaring. So, how do I communicate to him that I do not accept his idea that I need to 'prove' things?

The next time I suggest you pick one topic at a time and explore his accusations in detail, exploring and having him explain everything he accuses you of. Put forth your explanations or your recollection too. Don’t let him create a one sided picture while staying silent. Stand your ground and DEFEND YOUR REALITY! When you two have reach and agreement on that particular issue, write it down.

This will be my next communication goal.

There is nothing you can say to prove to him that you are committed.

I tried to say this a few posts ago and you told me I was playing the victim. When H and I were discussing the hotel issue on the phone and he said I was 'throwing the M away', I told him that it doesn't matter what I do anyway. How is this so different from saying that there is nothing I can do to prove to him that I am committed?

So compensate to ease his fears by showing your love for him, your vulnerability, you intention to stay and work on the marriage as LONG AS HE IS APPROPRIATE

Last night I did tell him that every day breaks my heart because I love him, but everyone has their limits. I told him that these last two years have been the most difficult of my life and he just snickered and said "You haven't been through sh!t". At this point, I took your suggestion from several posts ago and asked him what would be enough....how much suffering would he consider to be enough? I don't even remember what he said after that, but apparently he didn't answer my question or I would remember. It just occurred to me that a big part of the reason I've had trouble remembering things that H says to me and what is said during our 'conversations' is that he rarely actually answers a question and instead just goes off on tangents that leave me confused and quite literally, feeling crazy. This goes back to the above quote where you advise me to keep him on topic and it is becoming more and more apparent to me how important this is.

As soon as he is under control, then WELCOME the opportunity to speak with him again, even THANK HIM if you have to for calming down so you can talk to him. Immediately reward the good behavior and do not acknowledge the bad.

Cobra, H does NOT want to talk to me. He isn't going to 'calm down and re-enter the conversation'. It's almost like, if I want to talk to him, this is what I get. Period. If I don't want it, then fine, I don't get to talk to him. It's no skin off his back, don't you see?

The fact that he is denying the things you see makes you upset. You are still looking for him to reflect back to you the pain and frustration you feel.

That's not really it. That goes on, I'm not denying it, but in this case I feel that someone who could be 'fine' with things as they are is clearly not someone who is willing to do the work to fix it. We haven't had sex in 5 months!! Is that fine with him too???? My point is that if he doesn't mind the situation, then what am I fighting for?? What kind of M am I ever gonna get from him at this point??

[Cobra]

Heather,

So, how do I communicate to him that I do not accept his idea that I need to 'prove' things?

You can’t. Do you know of any way to prove anything you say? Just state it, stand by it, and leave it alone. When you start to debate this with him, you open the door for him to find an inconsistency. There is no need for you to play that game. If you tell him you are a woman, and he gets the urge to pick that apart, do you even think about arguing over such a stupid point?

I tried to say this a few posts ago and you told me I was playing the victim. When H and I were discussing the hotel issue on the phone and he said I was 'throwing the M away', I told him that it doesn't matter what I do anyway. How is this so different from saying that there is nothing I can do to prove to him that I am committed?

This is a little tough, but I think it all comes back to the arguing over little points and your “tone.” When you went to the hotel, your actions were doing the talking. You were playing martyr and actually looking for sympathy. Now, when you say you are committed to the marriage, are you looking for sympathy? No, it is a statement of fact and nothing more. So repeat it if he doesn’t hear you, but leave it at that. Don’t parse your words.

Last night I did tell him that every day breaks my heart because I love him, but everyone has their limits. I told him that these last two years have been the most difficult of my life and he just snickered and said "You haven't been through sh!t". At this point, I took your suggestion from several posts ago and asked him what would be enough....how much suffering would he consider to be enough? I don't even remember what he said after that, but apparently he didn't answer my question or I would remember. It just occurred to me that a big part of the reason I've had trouble remembering things that H says to me and what is said during our 'conversations' is that he rarely actually answers a question and instead just goes off on tangents that leave me confused and quite literally, feeling crazy. This goes back to the above quote where you advise me to keep him on topic and it is becoming more and more apparent to me how important this is.

Just something to consider, since I don’t know how volatile that conversation was, when he said "You haven't been through sh!t" you might ask him what he means by that remark. I know you know what he is talking about, but you might be able to “bait” him into opening up and expressing his pain. I believe this is the key goal for you. I do not know if you should attempt this anytime soon, or sometime later, at home or in counseling (which is probably the best choice, if he will do so).

When he says this, he is really saying, “I want to tell you how much you hurt me. Won’t you ask about it so I can jump down your throat?” Well, that last part is what scares you off, understandably, but he really wants you fell his pain and grovel at his feet to make it up to him (as Stig and I have discussed before). His pain still very fresh and raw in his mind. Talking about it could lead to him breaking down, crying and processing this pain, but he is doing all he can to avoid that while at the same time wanting you to comfort him. It’s a mess, I know.

Take a good look at what you’ve written here. Everything he does is to put the spotlight back on him and his need for vengeance. He needs to get his emotions out, but you need to stay clear of the anger. Try to see this to help you detach. He is deflecting to protect himself. You will not get him to confront his issues so all you can do is confront yours. Let him see you confront yourself in counseling (which might give him some sense of satisfaction). Maybe volunteer to discuss your issues. Eventually as the counselor sees your growth, s/he will focus on your H more and more. Let the C be the “bad” guy. You play the “good” guy.

Cobra, H does NOT want to talk to me. He isn't going to 'calm down and re-enter the conversation'. It's almost like, if I want to talk to him, this is what I get. Period. If I don't want it, then fine, I don't get to talk to him. It's no skin off his back, don't you see?

No I don’t see at all. He wants revenge to self sooth. He cannot get that from anyone else but you. Even if he is not speaking to you, he gets satisfaction from seeing you struggle. So work on yourself, detach, make yourself happy, do what you can to GAL WITHOUT triggering any further abandonment fears in him (this will be a tricky line to walk). Let him know you are not going anywhere, that you are committed to the marriage, but you do not have to wallow in self pity like him. You have to move forward for the sake of the kids.

That's not really it. That goes on, I'm not denying it, but in this case I feel that someone who could be 'fine' with things as they are is clearly not someone who is willing to do the work to fix it. We haven't had sex in 5 months!! Is that fine with him too???? My point is that if he doesn't mind the situation, then what am I fighting for?? What kind of M am I ever gonna get from him at this point??

He is not fine with the way things are, but I think he is too consumed with anger. You might talk to your counselor about him addressing his anger at some point. This is still all about each of your protecting yourself and not showing any vulnerability. It is a tough and scary place to be. Show your progress in the counseling sessions. Let the counselor acknowledge and validate how you are getting in touch with yourself since your H will not do so. Let him watch your progress from the outside.

[heatherg]

I was just having a one-sided conversation in my head with H. I was telling him.....
"Wouldn't that be nice? If I could do something, say something that would make you feel sure about reinvesting in this marriage? It would be great to have a level of certainty about the outcome wouldn't it? But the fact is, love is a choice and it is your choice alone. Love is a risk and there is nothing I can do or say that is going to completely minmize that risk for you. Same thing as dating someone new....they don't do or say anything that makes you feel 'sure' that you can trust them or that your heart is safe with them....you take the risk because you believe that it will be worth it. So, all I can do is tell you that I love you and that I am so very sorry for breaking your heart and that I want to spend the rest of my life with you, never forgetting the hard lessons I've learned and never taking you or our family for granted again. And with that being said, I hope that you can find the strength and the love inside you to help me do what it takes to save our marriage."

[Jabez]

Although I would agree that I am the pursuer in the R, I've never really gotten the impression that H *wanted* to be pursued. He mostly just wants to avoid, end of story. That's why 'turning the tables' and not pursuing anymore....that doesn't solve anything in my situation because H gets to avoid and never even has to try. It just happens because the pursuit has stopped.

In a typical pursuer, avoider R one expects the avoider to begin pursuing after the pursuer has backed off. That doesn't happen in my R. And if I, the pursuer, back off hoping that the avoider will 'come around', I'm sadly mistaken.

As long as the object of the pursuit is getting their emotional needs satisfactorily met, they won't have motivation to pursue. It seems like one of H's "emotional needs" right now is to be able to (quoting Cobra) self sooth. He cannot get that from anyone else but you. Even if he is not speaking to you, he gets satisfaction from seeing you struggle. If you take that away by not engaging in the downward spiraling conversations, detaching, and showing H that you're not struggling, you may notice a change in his pursuit per se. His manner of pursuing may not be your manner of pursuing, so just try to notice any change in H.

Peace,
~J

[Burgbud]

Hey Heather! Notice the name change?

(I'm gonna feel pretty stupid if the name didn't actually update)

I've been wondering something for a little while now and I hesitated to ask you because it seems like a leading question. I really don't intend it to be, at least for now. I'm just curious.

I remember one time suggesting that you remember back to the first year you and H dated and try to think of some of the things you guys did or how you acted that helped make that a wonderful time in your R. You responded with something to the effect of you wouldn't relive the first year you dated H for all the money in the world.

So that makes me wonder, is there any stretch of six months to a year when you would say that your M was really very good? Is there a time in your M that you're looking to get back to? Or are you basically looking to start over and build a very good marriage from the ground up?



(oh, and if I'm going to bring back the name I ought to bring back the sig, too)

[heatherg]

Jabez, thanks for pointing that out. It was a good elaboration on what Cobra was saying.

Bud, you're in familiar form Cool.

You responded with something to the effect of you wouldn't relive the first year you dated H for all the money in the world.

Yep.

So that makes me wonder, is there any stretch of six months to a year when you would say that your M was really very good? Is there a time in your M that you're looking to get back to? Or are you basically looking to start over and build a very good marriage from the ground up?

I think there were long stretches where we had lots of good things going for us....but I could never get past the drinking. Eventually my feelings about his problem destroyed just about every good feeling I had toward him.

We definitely had good times and good chemistry when he wasn't drinking and I wasn't feeling resentful because he did drink the night before or would be drinking that night or the next night. My H basically had an ongoing EA with alcohol and I hated it with every fiber of my being.

There are certain difficult qualities about H that have always been and likely will always be...but I probably could have dealt with them, particularly if I had taken the initiative to learn the things I am learning now. And, perhaps if I would have taken the self development path sooner, maybe I could have evoked some really positive change in my R before it was too late. I guess sometimes it takes trauma before one is shaken into changing. My A was a trauma for me too, although I understand my pain isn't nearly as deep as H's.

So....we had lots of things going for us that I would not want to change....H was my best friend, he's always been such a loyal person and his affections have always made me feel honored in a way because he tends to be very judgmental and not easily befriended. But there were also lots of things in the R that would need to be rebuilt....his self centered focus on his own feelings has always resulted in a disrespect for mine because of his tendency to frame things in win-lose ways. When we disagree, to honor my own feelings is to disregard his.

[chromosphere]

"My A was a trauma for me too, although I understand my pain isn't nearly as deep as H's."

Sorry Heather. Don't mean to interrupt while you are getting all sorts of advice to sort out. But that statement is BS. While it may be true that some people who have A's don't feel much remorse or pain afterwards, those of us who had our A during a weak emotional period on our lives feel an awful lot of pain during and after the A. Only you truly know how much pain you feel from your own guilt or remorse, and only your H truly knows how much pain the A caused in him, but I am willing to bet that your pain, being the consciencous person you are, is at least in the same level as his. The main difference is that the pain of the offender tends to make us want to fix the M and thus get closer, the pain of the offended tends to create distance. So on the outside the offended's pain appears to be more significant.

I guess what I am saying is don't diminish your feelings, certainly not by placing his pain on some pedestal that you can never hope to bring down.

I hope that makes sense.

Chromo

[heatherg]

You're right Chrome, I shouldn't say it isn't as deep as H's....it's different than his pain but isn't necessarily less traumatic. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have a question....you know, H doesn't ride in my vehicle. He gets home from San Diego tomorrow and his flight comes in at 6:22pm. I will be at daycare to pick up the kids at 6pm and then will have to go right to the airport. My question is this: I don't want to switch vehicles to pick H up. I usually do this. I don't want to do it anymore. I asked him how he was going to get home tomorrow, if he was going to take a cab since his flight came in at 6:22. He said "Oh, I thought you guys were going to come to the airport and get me after you picked the kids up from school?" I said "I'm going to be in my truck, I'll be happy to pick you up or you can take a cab, just let me know". He said "You can't just go home and switch vehicles?" I said "I'm not going to get the kids out of one vehicle and put them in another..." He said "Switch vehicles before you pick them up." I said "H, I would appreciate it if you didn't ask me to go out of my way for that...I understand you don't want to ride in my vehicle, but please don't ask me to go out of my way." He said "I am not riding in that <fu@king?> truck". I said "I understand and that's your choice. You can take a cab." He said sarcastically, "Yeah, it's my choice!" He said "Whatever, I'll talk to you later." I said "Ok, bye".

What do you guys think? Should I just switch vehicles?