Am I Creating a SSM Part II

[LustForLife]

Because I’ve tried not to ‘rock the boat’. I know how things will affect H and because of that, I’ve not gone out with friends, in any capacity, since the A was revealed. I know that the reluctance not to ‘rock the boat’ is my problem. That is why I need to snap out of it and do the things I want to do and stop worrying about H’s reaction. That sort of flies in the face of showing remorse. It seems like a no win.


No! Doing what you need to do to become self-actualized (the best individual person you can be) does not fly in the face of remorse. That's where you are messing up. You think if you stay stuck to H like glue, it shows remorse. Wrong. It just shows further codependence. And you can remain independent and be remorseful at the same time. My H is a prime example. We still are maintaining our individual growth (going out with our own friends, GAL on our own, etc), and yet I am able to see/feel H's remorse for what he did (left). So while we are coming back together as a couple, we are still maintaining our individualism which I think is CRUCIAL to having the type of M you and most people are after. Your H is still in the stage where he is fighting it every step of the way, doesn't want you to go out and doesn't even want to go out with mutual friends. That is a Huge red flag.
So again, I would work on GAL yourself, and whenever possible, encourage/nudge your H to do the same.

[Cobra]

Heather,

This is more of Schnarch’s line of thinking. While I do think Schnarch’s principles (and I still have not read the entire book, still working on it) have a lot of usefulness, I don’t buy into them the way that you do. I don’t believe that all of one’s happiness, in a healthy person, comes from themselves. Like someone else pointed out, Chrome I think, we are social creatures. While it is beneficial to understand the concept of self soothing, I think Schnarch takes his theory of self validated intimacy a little too far. I wouldn’t be happy in a R where I could only count on self-validated intimacy. I happen to like Dr. Phil’s reference to one’s partner as being their ‘soft place to fall’. But that’s just me. And of course I understand that there are times when that cannot be, so in those instances Schnarch’s perspective is handy. But only to be used as an interim, not as a way of life in a R.

You seem to be making good progress in understanding your issues better, so I can’t let this statement slide. I think you are still missing the message with Schnarch. What he says about holding on to yourself does not mean you need to transform yourself to the point that you do not find happiness and comfort in others. Of course other people can make you happy and that without them we can feel sad and lonely. But we don’t need to crumble apart, fall into a state of panic and start doing irrational things that make the situation worse.

This is the security and comfort you need to find inside yourself. This is holding on to yourself. You may feel like you are going crazy, that your world is coming to an end, but you keep yourself centered, tell yourself it will be ok, and don’t do anything to escalate. Only then will your partner feel like coming back to you. If you act like a crazy person then all they want to do is get away, right? This is self defeating.

Focus on your objective – getting back in touch with your H. Do what you KNOW is needed to effect that. The emotions you feel at the time are exactly the opposite of what you need to do to meet your objective. Ergo 180, see?

Plus, he needs to do the same for you. Do you want him screaming at you because of his panic? Of course not. You want him to be civil so he can comfort you right? If he can’t hold onto himself, and is too caught up in his own panic, he will not have the resources to comfort you, just as you can’t comfort him, and the downward spiral starts up again. I think you just need to further along in the book. It will become easier.

Heather, just what is a “real” answer? Who determines this and in the end, why does it matter?

Cobra, a real answer is one that actually responds to the question asked. Period, the end.

Yes, but is the question really necessary or is it just to put him on the spot or to get your way on an issue? Are there time when it is better to not ask the question at all?

[heatherg]

Lil: If you stick your key in the car and turn it and the engine does not start, do you just sit there and keep turning it and saying "it should start"?

Lil, this was amusing, but did drive the point home. Thanks

Chrome: I revealed the EA to my W the night before I started classes, and not crying or breaking down while lecturing the next few days was one of the hardest things I have ever done. I had the added problem that the impetus for revealing the A was OW "dumping" me that night also. So I had the shame of the A, the double feeling of rejection from my W and OW, and the shame that I wasn't "man" enough to stop it on my own.

Chrome, ugh. I understand how you feel. It's really hard to feel these things....it makes it somehow feel better to know there are other good people out there who have done stupid things. We've owned up to it and are trying to pay the price. We'll be ok.

There's so much thought provoking stuff I haven't had a chance to get to yet. I'm trying to post as I have time. More later.

[Cobra]

Heather,

it makes it somehow feel better to know there are other good people out there who have done stupid things.

Whoa! Stop right there! Someone put up a comment about nuns and not feeling guilty. That post is VERY IMPORTANT. Read it several times.

Did you know at the time you had your affair what you know now? No. Did you realize the damage you were doing? No. Were you in an emotional state to even understand the consequences if you heard them? No. You were essentially ignorant. There may be plenty of reason why you were ignorant, but that is not reason to feel guilty. The ONLY reason your should ever feel guilty is if you KNEW full well what you were doing was wrong, why it was wrong and all the consequences of your action, and you CONSCIOUSLY decided to do it anyway. What you did was not stupid, only ignorant. Don’t go down that road.

[heatherg]

Thanks for your willingness to stand up for my honor Cobra, but I knew what I was doing. Anyone who has an A and says they didn't know it was wrong is full of crap. I didn't know how deeply the cuts would go, so I can say I didn't fully understand the consequences and I agree that I wasn't in a state of mind to grasp them even if someone had tried to tell me. But I knew better than to do what I did. The decisions I made to be with OM on those few occasions I was with him were conscious decisions without a doubt. I honestly wouldn't blame my H if he couldn't forgive me. I just wish he'd say it and get it over with though. I feel like I'm picking at a scab anytime he tells me that I've never been sorry, etc. I want to show him otherwise, I want to talk about it and get it out. But he wants to see something from me that would completely reopen the wound, I guess he wants to see raw emotion and it's just not there anymore....that part of the healing process is complete and in fact, may have even been cut short because my self preservation instincts kicked in due to the hostility that poured from him. I don't know how to tell him that without sounding like I've 'moved past it' and left him behind to mourn 'what was'.

Chrome, I certainly hope I didn't offend you with what I said. That was not my intent at all and if I did, I apologize. I know you've struggeled with your own demons on guilt so I did not mean to dredge anything up for you.

[chromosphere]

"Chrome, ugh. I understand how you feel. It's really hard to feel these things....it makes it somehow feel better to know there are other good people out there who have done stupid things. We've owned up to it and are trying to pay the price. We'll be ok."

Agreed!!!! Part of the self-esteem cycle is forgetting that EVERYONE does stupid things. The Bible (not preaching just recognizing that it does have wisdom) tries to remind us by saying "all have fallen short." I find it comical and sad how quick people (mostly devout "christians") are so quick to degrade people who have A's. An A is a mistake like any other. Granted, it can have more devastating consequences than many other mistakes, but I have noticed that a large proportion of those negative consequences tend to be felt keenly by the people having the A (with the exception of people like BF's OM). I am of the opinion, having felt those negative consequences, that for most people, those consequences are punishment enough, and far be it for me to heap any more on top of them. I think I'm starting to ramble.

You are right in your latest post about how people who have A's do make conscious choices along the way. There is a mental fog that typically surrounds those choices, but they are choices nonetheless. We don't excuse the drunken driver for causing an auto accident because he/she was drunk. I liken that foggy state to the state of mind people are in when trying to attract the opposite sex at a young age. I'm sure most of you did something completely stupid trying to impress someone of the opposite sex at some point in your life. Afterwards, you think "why in the world? How I could I possibly decide that doing that was the right thing to do?" That is kinda the way you feel in an A.

"Chrome, I certainly hope I didn't offend you with what I said. That was not my intent at all and if I did, I apologize. I know you've struggeled with your own demons on guilt so I did not mean to dredge anything up for you."

I'd say LOL, you must be joking, but this statement is revealing to me. When I first read this, my reaction was "what in the world would make you think that you offended me?" But I see now how you are stuck in over-sensitive mode, brought about by the R you currently have with your H. I know and understand that mode. Let me tell you Heather, you need to get out of that mode if you ever want to be able to set firm enough boundaries to help move your M forward. Let's start by saying you never have to apologize to me again. Deal?

Chromo

p.s. Unless of course you start calling me ugly names, but then I'll probably just laugh anyway.

[heatherg]

A way of my saying, perhaps that I differ from you in that I do not see H as an true "married single" but rather quite the opposite, an H who is incredibly needy and fused with Heather and vice versa...with near zero differentiation.

Stig, I tend to agree with you on this. You say later that H's 'married single' characteristics are just a facade. Again, I think you're right on.

I feel taking an strong assertive stance with H as various OP have posed will only convince H even more Heather is trying to control him....Likewise, I feel an complete GAL detachment while still living under the same roof is only going to aggravate his paranoia.

Either of these statements or both of the these statements or neither of these statements could be true. I think part of what has been driving me crazy is trying to 'figure out' what H wants from me because he is not in a position to tell me himself. The problem with that is that I can never *know*. I think I'm moving more in the direction of figuring out what *I* think is right and acting accordingly without trying to predict H's reactions or lack thereof. I think I'm ready to admit that I am in fact trying to control this R and I need to stop. What do you think about that?

I think he really loves you, Heather, but still wants to punish you for herting him so deeply. But he doesn't want to lose you or the kids over it. He's not willing to go that far to see your contrition.

See, I think if I were to leave, he wouldn't see it as something he could have prevented. In which case, there is no reason to alter his behavior in any way because I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. He tells himself that I have all the 'power' and that he just sits around waiting for the other shoe to drop where I come and tell him I'm moving out. He half expects it but doesn't see that he can or should do anything to prevent that from happening.

I believe you said yourself in an earlier thread, Heather, that he's waiting for you to show remorse and, thus far, hasn't seen it yet.

This is where I get tripped up. Because I feel like I want to give him what he needs, but I'm not exactly sure what he wants to see. I feel like my *actions* have shown that I am sorry and want to rebuild trust. I've stayed very close to home, made sure to call when/if I'll be late and I always make an effort to call from work as opposed to my cell. I've been in C since the very beginning and I've been the one pushing the MC and reading the books, etc. Why would I be pushing so hard to put the M back together if I was seeing someone else?!
So, then, I feel like he must want to see raw emotion from me. And I struggle with this because I think the time has past for that to occur. I don't know if it means anything significant that I struggle with the idea of being able to produce an emotional reaction at this point....maybe I should still be able to react emotionally when we discuss it, but I can't. All that has transpired these last two years have put those emotions and feelings to bed, probably forever. Does that make sense?

Both ways will only show H that you are arrogant enough to think you can just get away with your betrayal and do your own thing (hard core GAL detachment as in the first example) or behaving in your own way aggressively by calling the shots and telling him what to do and what you demand from him (asserting yourself in the second example) .

This sounds just about right, feelings that H has expressed in one way or another about my actions.

Personally I think totally reining in your angry responses should be your primary focus. H knows quite well how to push your buttons it seems. You have to use your martial arts mental training and be cognizant of this baiting tactic and use the force of it against H via deflection away from you while keeping an peaceful and positive demeanor. Reacting negatively will only feed him.


Totally agreed. No matter what I else I may choose to do or not do, this is at the top of my priority list and it applies regardless of which route I may take.

It's possible to be firm with H without losing your temper.

Yeah, I'm just learning this a little later in life than most people perhaps I'm really working on it.

IMO he needs to go out by himself with friends. He needs to exercise and eat right if he isn't doing so. He needs to do things to get his mind off of his resentment or it will drive him crazy like cabin fever.


GAL for H is really a great idea and LFL felt pretty strongly about it too. I will see what I can do in the way of support and suggestions to H.

Finally, Heather, let me just say this. I don't see you as an F who would collapse to the floor in tears and beg H for forgiveness and pleadings of sorrow after he discovered your A. If my thinking is right on this I think if you had done such with an display of total vulnerability at the figurative feet of your H back then his current attitude would be much different and he would have been satisfied that was the remorseful behavioral display he still seeks from you today.

So, Stig, now that I've clarified that this *did* in fact happen, pretty close to the way you've written above actually, do you have any new insight as to what remorse he may want from me?

[Julie33]

This is more of Schnarch’s line of thinking. While I do think Schnarch’s principles (and I still have not read the entire book, still working on it) have a lot of usefulness, I don’t buy into them the way that you do. I don’t believe that all of one’s happiness, in a healthy person, comes from themselves. Like someone else pointed out, Chrome I think, we are social creatures. While it is beneficial to understand the concept of self soothing, I think Schnarch takes his theory of self validated intimacy a little too far. I wouldn’t be happy in a R where I could only count on self-validated intimacy. I happen to like Dr. Phil’s reference to one’s partner as being their ‘soft place to fall’. But that’s just me. And of course I understand that there are times when that cannot be, so in those instances Schnarch’s perspective is handy. But only to be used as an interim, not as a way of life in a R.

Heather, I don't think Schnarch ever says that all of one's happiness must come from within. On the contrary, he identifies 'mutuality' as the end goal rather than 'enmeshment.' I don't know how far you are in the book, but it may become clearer as you read further. I know that I keep re-reading sections of his book, more layers of meaning become clearer, so keep at it.

Here is a quote from Pg. 109 of PM. The highlighted words are his. It took me more than one reading to pick up on this subtlety.

Other-validated intimacy occurs spontaneously in long-term intimate relationships between highly differentiated people. The difference is, differentiated partners are not dependent on it. Other-validated intimacy is nice when you can get it, particularly when you don't need it - and, paradoxically, that's when you're more likely to get it!

When therapists prescribe other-validated intimacy for poorly differentited people, they are confusing the destination with the process of how you get there. It's easy to think a little reciprocal support might get "communication" rolling when your relationship is the pits, but unfortunately, it's not that simple. Other-validated intimacy can artifically improve your functioning and make you feel better when it works, but it has many long-term drawbacks.

I hope this is helpful to you, Heather. I know that despite being a great Schnarch fan, I periodically fail in self-soothing (as evidenced by my recent rantings on my last thread), so it takes a lot of work and practice. Schnarch himself says that merely understanding the meaning of differentiation doesn't make one more differentiated.

Julie

[heatherg]

But I see now how you are stuck in over-sensitive mode, brought about by the R you currently have with your H. I know and understand that mode. Let me tell you Heather, you need to get out of that mode if you ever want to be able to set firm enough boundaries to help move your M forward.

Lol, I am easily influenced. When Cobra said I should not feel that what I did was stupid, I had a reaction he probably could not ever have predicted. I thought to mayself "Geez, I sure hope Chrome didn't think I was calling him stupid....he's probably thinking 'Speak for yourself Heatherg!'"
So, Ok, I'm oversensitive. Agreed. Glad you didn't take it the wrong way

With that being said about boundaries, you are so right. Because I always see the other person's POV. H and I are about to have a not so nice discussion I am predicting, about the monthly bills. He wants me to take on bills in proportion to my ratio of income vs his. I want to take the bills and split them down the middle. I see what LFL was trying to say about that not being what I want to accomplish, a me vs you mentality. Her suggestion to merge the finances has merit, but that would be for further down the road. Like around the time H starts treating me like a W. I am not a friend with benefits, i.e. the luxury of using my money. I am a wife with a good income and if he would like to treat me like a wife, then I'd be more than happy to give him some of my money. Don't get me wrong, I pay for tons of stuff that benefits him.....movies, fun stuff, clothes, whatever. I'm strictlty talking about stepping up and commiting myself to more than 50% of the monthly bills (mortgage and utilities, we have no debt involved) jut because I make more. I'm worried that I'm doing the wrong thing. It's gonna be hard to enforce this because he's gonna accuse me of holding money over his head, etc. Any help with this would be great.

[chromosphere]

Heather,

About the money ...

I personally think it is ridiculous that he is trying to do this proportional bill paying thing. That smacks of a lack of committment to your M. But my feelings don't really matter. I think you should state the following boundary (or something like it).

I feel that as a married couple that intends to stay married indefinitely, all accounts and expenditures should be shared. Therefore, I feel that we should set a date at which we drop the separate accounts, separate bill-paying, and stop keeping a running track of separate expenditures. If you want (and this is the responsible thing to do) we can set up a joint budget in which we map out planned expenditures given the combined total of our budgets.

I don't know if that is truly a boundary, but I think it is an appropriate step to take for couples that want to be together.

Chrome