I recently went out and bought a bunch of new panties. I am at the place when I don't know when I will ever have sex again as my H is all wrapped up in his A and I am working on myself and am holding a space for our marriage so will not complicate our issues. But I went out shopping with my daughter and bought a bunch of string things and took a hard look about how depressed I had been, feeling unloved, unattractive etc. in those months when the H was withdrawn and we were living together in a sexless marriage. I even started thinking of myself as old, as a grandma, even though I can assure you I am actually pretty young and sparky for my age. Now this part may be hard, but I know you can do it. I would say, no matter when she got those panties, to encourage more of it. Tell her you saw the panties, and that they are really cute. Tell her you would like to go shopping and buy some more with her or for her. Tell her you miss ML with her, and although you realize that you might need to take it slow, that you really miss having passion in your R with her. Tell her you think she is the cutest, sexiest person on the whole planet and that you have the hots for her all the time. If you need to tell her that that's why you were so jealous and distraught over the OM, then do. But do it in the context of building towards some sexual encounters. Plan some weekends away. Light some candles in the bedroom. Put on some soft music and dance with her. You can stop right there for now, but you will be creating a mood in her mind - keep building on that. I think you need to build some confidence for yourself too, and I realize you are afraid of setting yourself up for rejection, so tell her that. Ask her what the indicators will be that she is ready to be closer to you. Then watch for those. Sometimes fear blocks us from seeing the true signals. What can you do for youself to build more confidence? Maybe it's time for you to discard the tighty-whities
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
OMG, I have been locked out all weekend. (Looks like I will have to start a new thread too.) I'm so glad I found you. I am so happy for you!! I am also happy that you are staying on this board with your "friends". As far as I am concerned, you are truely an inspiration. I myself have a hard time sticking to the DB principles and many times wanted to throw in the towel only to come here and be encouraged by you and others to keep on keeping on.
Trust is a big issue. Now the ball is in your W's court. It is up to her to prove to you by her words and actions that she is trustworthy again.
Someone here advised you to reread DR, I think that is a good idea as you will be looking at things with a new pair of eyes.
Hmmm... Notice that apparently you aren't willing to be totally honest with her either...
You're right to a certain extent but I am talking about being honest about things that happened and you are talking about being honest about feelings. Not telling someone you feel a certain way, especially if you know your feelings are temporary and mainly due to paranoia is not considered a lie or being dishonest. Sure, in the world of psychology I guess you could say both are dishonest but in the real world, my W not telling me she had a PA is not the same as me telling her that my feelings got bent for a few hours over something. Could both forms of "dishonesty" lead to issues in a relationship? I guess so.
Quote: IMPO, what she needs is passion, sex, strength, honesty, confidence, and self-respect from you.
I get this but I can't seem to do that when she seems TOTALLY unresponsive to anything I do. I have tried the playful approach. I have tried telling her how great she looks and how sexy she is whenever I get the chance. I have lit candles. I even tried to kiss her (oops, did I forget that from journaling) last night. We were playing around and I picked her up, laid her down on the couch and kissed her. Sure, it wasn't passionate, but it WAS something new for us, at least in the last year or so. Her immediate reaction was with a SLIGHT smile to say "hey, who said you could do that." and she got up and walked away. Ok, so I am to just assume that she was playing with me? Sure, I guess I should have said "well, CAN I do that?" or just moved in and done it again? I am getting really frustrated because there is only so much a man can do with someone who refuses to acknowledge him in ANY sexual or intimate way. I know I have said I have issues of my own, but I really am trying here. I have not posted every little thing I have done but there are tons of DIFFERENT things I have tried. Some that used to work and others that I tried out to see what would happen. All of it designed to get the message across that I see her as a hot, young, desirable woman and ALSO that I see MYSELF as the male counterpart to that. I am full of confidence. Sure, I am frustrated but I KNOW I look good and so does she so whats the problem. There just seems to be this barrier that prevents her from seeing me that way.
Quote:
With respect to the self-respect, I'm not sure why you should be willing to live with reminders of OM all over the place. Why don't you share your fear with her and see what she says? If the panties do relate to OM, tell her they hurt you and ask her to get rid of them and then take her to VS for something other than pajamas and warm ups.
She won't admit to ANY of it being of the OM. The panties, bear, shirts, etc. She has excuses for all of it. From that perspective, she just puts it on ME for being paranoid. Maybe I am...
Quote: With respect to passion and sex, maybe she was waiting for both all weekend and never got either and that is why she is starting to feel frustrated and hopeless. A sexless marriage isn't any better for her than it is for you, maybe worse as she was the first one to seek fire elsewhere. My guess is that she is, or will be, starting to mourn the loss of her identity as a sexual being that inspires and feels passion because she doesn't see a place for that person in your M and nothing is changing to make a place. A woman who is content living an asexual lifestyle doesn't wear sexy underwear like that to begin with...
Ok, I guess I have been raised in the age where I heard SO much "No means no" that I internalize that. She is clearly saying NO to me right now both in action and words. How the hell do I "get passionate" with someone who is not in the least bit passionate about me? I know I can inspire that in her to some extent but damn, how is it that I am just supposed to "have it" for her and she starts with nothing (at least that she shows anyway) for me? I would settle for a tiny spark in her eye. What you seem to be suggesting is that I somehow read her mind and discover what deep seeded thing she wants me to do to release her pent up passion. I am at a total loss, and if she won't talk to me, then I guess I just keep reading, trying and waiting.
Quote: Now, I believe she told you that she wasn't ready for that in Ireland because she was still involved with OM. What makes you think she still isn't ready?
No, she just said that having sex on the trip would be like going from 0-60, relationship-wise, in a couple days. She never said it was because of him. I assumed it was. What makes me think she still isn't ready is, well, prepare to slap me, but because she hasn't responded in ANY way, passively or actively to ANYTHING I have done. I would think, and correct me if I am wrong, that if she were "ready" but somehow wanted me to do things differently, then she would understand the need to communicate, especially after going through all this. Conversely, if she is ready and is willing to at least "get into it" the same old ways but then switch things up, then she would respond to some of those "old" things I have tried. I DO NOT want the "old" ways back again but sometimes when you lose something you have to look for it back in the last place you saw it.
Quote: How much of this "sex being off the table" thing is really all about you, your own anger, resentment, and insecurities? How much is due to you needing honesty about the A to move forward? If that is a big part of it, why not let her know that a great sex life is important to you and that right now your own need for more openness and honesty about the affair is a barrier to that?
I love this part. I don't think consciously I am retarding the process because of my own anger/need for honesty but it is possible that I am. So, this idea of just being open is what I am going to have to do. I think if anything, she may be waiting for me to open up. I will really have to think about this and I suppose just take a leap off the deep end. Thank you for that.
Quote: BTW, I'm not sure if I can explain this, but you seem to implicitly support the idea that a married woman is not a hot, sexy, horny woman that craves sex. Why do I say this? One example is your 5LL talk in which you quickly say that it isn't all about sex for you in a way that sounds to me as if what you are saying is, don't worry W, I'm not going to insist on too much sex because I know that would threaten and scare a good W like you.
You are somewhat correct, but not because it would scare a "good W like you" but because I know she has expressed a lack of interest so much in the past. NOW, I am a different man these days, without some the insecurity I used to have so I don't ALWAYS see things that way. The new me can see that she may LOVE sex but just not the way it used to be between us. The new me knows that things NEED to be different somehow but I struggle to figure out how. I have read a lot on the subject and THOUGHT I knew some things. My biggest issue right now and this goes to your last post, is that I can't even get to the point of initiation, let alone explore any other issues.
I can't explain it. Like I said, it's as if there is a huge wall preventing her from seeing the "passionate" me and me from getting to her.
Quote: I'm glad you are thinking about how and when to talk to her, it will be good for you to get clear about this in your own head so that if you wait, you know that you are choosing to live with the skeletons in the closet.
This is pure truth. I need to make sure I can deal with waiting or if I even need to. I think there will come a time soon that I will take the plunge and talk to her about all this. I just need to make sure I do it in the best way possible. You have helped in that respect...any many others too.
PL, no, I know women treat these things differently. I am just saying that the specific undies I have seen recently are not like even the usual sexy stuff she has always worn and come on, TINY little t-back hot pink undies with a big heart on the front...well, excuse me if I think it's a little strange to buy those for yourself. Maybe that's just me. Anyway, I want to be past that.
This addresses OT's post a little as well. My W is a beautiful, sexy woman with GREAT self-esteem issues. She hates her body, thinks she's fat, has no boobs, big butt, skinny legs, etc. It's a bane of my existence because I, and everyone else on the planet, thinks she is hot as hell. I have learned to temper my "you're being stupid, you're beautiful" comments since all this started by validating a LITTLE bit so I am not telling her she is wrong to FEEL a certain way but in the end, it is just foolish that she can't see how wonderful she is. I know a LOT of women have that problem but it's frustrating to men who see them as the desirable women they are.
I know in the past I have not DONE what I needed to do to convey this feeling to my W. I simply argued with her and made fun of her for thinking something so silly like she was fat or somehow not perfect. I now know this was wrong to do and have made great strides in trying to do and say the right things.
As for the things to do to "ignite" her, like I said to OT, I have done most all of them. It just seems like she really doesn't notice, or even see me as someone who matters when they do certain things. Does that make sense? I KNOW, like I said, that I am good looking and worth of that kind of attention. I am in great shape and I think I project confidence these days but everything I do to induce romance stops short of registering with her.
I want to clarify my post to OT and this one a bit. I am convinced that with time, OR an open conversation about all this, my W will come around. I am stressing a bit about all this because, well, I am impatient and want things to change now...lol.
No, really, I THINK I know some of the issues that made me feel like my W didn't like ML and why we didn't do it that much. It wasn't hard to figure out when I looked back at our life together from a different perspective...hers. When I say to OT that I am trying some of the "old" things again, I just do that a LITTLE bit (i.e. say certain things or give that "special" back rub) VERY rarely to see if that's what she is still looking for to let HER know that I am ready for us to resume intimacy on all levels. The rest of the time, I am constantly trying different things to see what might be the key. Maybe that's wrong thinking on my part. I know if the roles were reversed I would surely be looking for something I knew to be a sign that she was ready to move on.
Again, the direct approach seems needed right about now as all my tunnels seem to be cheese-less.
You know, the more I think about, the more I doubt that the g-string find was accidental. I think your W may be trying to tell you something. What? I dunno...
Maybe --about the PA --about being ready for sex --about having gotten ready for sex with you and being disappointed you didn't pursue and find her in that g-string
It is very indirect whatever it is, even moreso than the ring purchase...
GH, Give it more time. She just confessed to you a few days ago. I am sure she want to be with you but maybe her guilt is preventing her from it right now. You say she has a self esteem issue, maybe she can't understand how you would want to be with her after what she did.
Maybe you could plan a romantic evening after the kids go to bed this weekend. A little candlelight, music, wine....
Are you being serious or direct? I only question that because I don't know which ring purchase you are referring to, the more recent wedding band or the one in Ireland.
If you are serious, as I suspect you are, then...
Quote: Maybe --about the PA --about being ready for sex --about having gotten ready for sex with you and being disappointed you didn't pursue and find her in that g-string
---Ok, I guess, but the place I saw it was really out of the way. It was only because I dropped something and was bending down to get it that I even saw her undies. ---IF they are about her being ready for sex, then why not put them on... ---No, in some way or another, I know what undies she wears every day, and especially to bed. She has never worn these to bed.
I am really curious about something and this is more of the same questioning as last time. Am I to just accept that my W is never going to give me ANY clue or let me know in ANY way, via direct communication or indirect signal, that she is "ready"? You seem to be saying that my W could be this hot-bed of passion just waiting for the magic word/thing to release it in her. Maybe the OM WAS that magic thing. Maybe she is looking for whatever they had in us. I don't know.
Here's a little more to ponder. This guy that my W was "with", well, as I have said, he's basically a supermodel and suffice to say I am not. It's almost like finding out your W is seeing Brad Pitt or someone. I know it's not all about looks and body, but when it comes to passion and physical attraction, it does play a part. So here I am, the same ole me, and there he is, Adonis in the flesh. Sure, he turned out to be an a-hole but before that, who knows what they did or how it affected her outlook on intimacy, etc. I don't spend much time fretting over this but it does come into play as I try to understand what may be preventing her from being with me.
I think you are right on. I was just thinking about that on my way home. It really has only been 4 days since she opened up and I don't know if it's too soon for me to approach her with all this. She may feel like she just got finished with one hurdle and I am throwing a mountain at her. On the other hand, as OT keeps alluding to, IF she is waiting for me to make a move, then my hesitation could prove costly to our relationship. It's SO hard to know what to do, especially with a track record of NOT doing the right thing.
It's so hard too to shake this idea that my W just doesn't see me. If you have been where I am, you understand the feeling.
Like I said, I think this may be too much too soon. This weekend should be interesting.
as my H is all wrapped up in his A and I am working on myself and am holding a space for our marriage so will not complicate our issues. But I went out shopping with my daughter and bought a bunch of string things and took a hard look about how depressed I had been, feeling unloved, unattractive etc. in those months when the H was withdrawn and we were living together in a sexless marriage. I even started thinking of myself as old, as a grandma, even though I can assure you I am actually pretty young and sparky for my age. Now this part may be hard, but I know you can do it. I would say, no matter when she got those panties, to encourage more of it. Tell her you saw the panties, and that they are really cute. Tell her you would like to go shopping and buy some more with her or for her. Tell her you miss ML with her, and although you realize that you might need to take it slow, that you really miss having passion in your R with her. Tell her you think she is the cutest, sexiest person on the whole planet and that you have the hots for her all the time. If you need to tell her that that's why you were so jealous and distraught over the OM, then do. But do it in the context of building towards some sexual encounters. Plan some weekends away. Light some candles in the bedroom. Put on some soft music and dance with her. You can stop right there for now, but you will be creating a mood in her mind - keep building on that. I think you need to build some confidence for yourself too, and I realize you are afraid of setting yourself up for rejection, so tell her that. Ask her what the indicators will be that she is ready to be closer to you. Then watch for those. Sometimes fear blocks us from seeing the true signals. What can you do for youself to build more confidence? Maybe it's time for you to discard the tighty-whities 
