Quote: Keep the faith Frank. You have come so far and I really think you're gonna make it someday.
I"m feeling more positive about it. It sure has been a journey. It's funny how there are still so many 'triggers' than make my heart jump. When her cellphone rings, when I go by her room and she's on the computer reading e-mail. I absolutely know there is nothing going on but the anxiety comes up when that happens.
Quote: Also, thanks for that email the other day. I really appreciate it.
Sounds like you are on the same track. You know something I dont think I mentioned.
My wife and I made a solid promise that if over this time period we get back together that we will stay until the kids move out. No matter what. It really helped me relax. Infact I told my wife that it makes it easier to concentrate on what I need to do for the marriage instead of worrying about the past breakups and the future. Just thinking about the here and now.
I haven't updated for over a week. I guess I've just been trying my best to stay level and keep everyone else stable.
After our ML about a week ago we hadn't gotten that close again, part of it I'm sure is because it was that time of the month for her. We spend evenings together watching tv and cuddling. Kisses go from 'pecks on the lips' to the rare but exciting 'semi passionate' kiss. We still sleep together and some nights we hold each other, others we maybe hold hands. We always talk a a little and it's pleasant. A couple nights I coulds have sworn she said 'I love you' when she said goodnight but it was kind of mumbled.
Over the past few years W has been lamenting about how our minivan gets poor gas mileage and that we should have a nice smaller car for day to day driving. She's had only minivans for the past 10 years.
She had also been talking about how nice it would be to have a hybrid car, so we could do our part for ecology and all that. So, last week I surprised hed and said "let's go look at Toyota Prius and maybe we can buy one". She was nervous but loved the car we looked at so I bought it for her. Of course, she said "it's for the family" and I agreed.
Just for perspective, this is a fully loaded Prius, all the computerized navigation systems, smart keys, high tech electric/gas engines. A very impressive piece of technology. And a $32,000 car.
So, for the next day or so I was her hero, you couldn't wipe the smile off her face. It isn't that her 'love language' is gifts because it isn't. And I wasn't trying to buy her love. This was something she had wanted for a long time and I felt she had deserved it because she has been such a good mom all these years.
So she's been very happy about that. The next few days were ok. She still goes back and forth in her kissing and hugging. Sometimes neutral, other times she is emotinally connected.
Saturday we went for a family dinner or something and she was openly flirting with me in front of the girls (D10 and D15). They haven't been 'told' anything because she still 'isn't sure'. BUt they see that she sleeps with me every night so they draw their own conclusions.
INterestingly, during a conversation between W and D15 last week W told me that D15 told her "You better not be leading Dad on mom". W was suprised that she would take sides with me, and want to be protective of ME from W. How interesting that W doesn't see that the kids still don't trust her emotionally.
Sunday was a weird day. She had told me in the morning that she was going to 'turn her room into a meditation room' since she wasn't sleeping there any more. I supoprted the idea and talked about some changes we have been wanting to do to 'our' bedroom. So I suggested we move the bookshelves into the 'meditation room' , buy a 'day bed' and other ideas which she liked too.
So we moved these things and in the middle she got kind of quiet, and said she was feeling uncomfortable because 'what if things do't work out?' and that she 'doesn't know what she want's still, and that she SHOULD know by now'.
Well, I just told her that if she felt she needed to back off she'd be able to go right back into 'her' room, and she'd at least have a nicer bed now!'
We spent a lot of time moving the bookshelves, and we found old photo albums of the kids and us that we hadn't seen in a while so that brought some smiles.
Part of the day she was doing this 'whine' I call the "you don't love me" whine. She would get pouty and say "you don't love me"and I would tell her I do, and 10 minutes later she would say it again. This is how she shows me some insecurity in her feelings and she's done this for years. I spoke about this to Counselor on tuesday and she said that maybe she is trying to see if I will still love her when she is needy and whiny, or will I get mad, drink, whatever. Of course I was supportive of her so perhaps I 'passed'.
A few hours later the kids all went to various friends houses for an hour and she 'invited' me to 'fool around' since we had a 'free hour'. And it was pretty 'passionate'.
The rest of Sunday was pleasant. Nothing special happened.
On monday we had a pretty normal day. I went to my office, she did her work. We cuddled and watched TV and when we went to bed 1/2 hour earlier than we normally do I read that as her inviting me to be intimate. However, when I made any move towards that she said "I just don't feel that way right now. I know I should but I don't".
All I said was that I understand, there's a lot to get past before we'll both feel safe and able to be vulnerable. We held hands for a while and then went to sleep.
Tuesday was 'normal'. I saw Counselor and told her some of the things weighing on me. Basically she said that it's clear that I am worn out from carrying all the burden and not being able to express my hurt, my anger, because that would drive her into her shell. She thinks W is testing me in all kinds of ways to see if she can really be safe with me, is there ANYTHING she could do that would trigger me to live 'the old way'. And, that W is going through the process of addressing the extreme hurt that she went through as a child so her emotions are all over the place. Also, the 'you don't love me' stuff she went through is possibly part of her finally feeling the guilt for what she did. Perhaps she is thinking 'how could frank love me after how I hurt him with the affair'.
We also talked about what WOULD be 'too much' for me and would cause ME to end the relationship. I told Counselor that if she ever had an affair again that would be the end. I can't go through that again. And I won't. With W, 'too much' would be me drinking again. I won't.
Counselor has a session with her tomorrow so that will help. Her goal is to get her back on track, working on the issues she has always run away from.
Today W was very emotional and I probed her to find out why. She told me she was upset because I have been so nice to her and she doesn't feel worthy. She doesn't deserve it. I got her a new car, a new cell phone and I have been very supportive of her. She said she has hurt me enough and that she's afraid she will hurt me again if things don't work out. She said that one of her issues has been that she didn't think she deserved 'more from life' all these years and now she "want's it all". The 'passion, the fun. And maybe we can't feel that way about each other any more. So it scares her.
I asked her if she loved me, and if she actually wanted it to work out between us and she said yes both times. But that she's still not 'feeling it'.
Well, after pressing her on the issue of us having to get past the hurt we caused each other, she admitted that having an affair to 'fix her life' was the worst idea she ever had and that she's "so f-cked up" that she didn't see how I could want her. SHe said I didn't have to stay with her.
I said she's right, I DON'T have to stay with her. I choose to. I asked her why she married me and she said "because I was in love with you". SO I said that I was too and that I remember how it felt. I know I can feel it again but not until we get past the hurt, and it will take time.
She started to cry and came over to me and I held her while she cried. SHe said she wanted so much more out of life, that it's too late to be screwing around, it's not like there is a lot of time to make more mistakes. I said I feel the same way. I want to get it RIGHT this time. And that if getting it right means finding out I can't get it right with her, then find that out and we sell the house, split everything and go our separate ways. But I think we can do it, make it work. She said she felt the same way, that she wanted for she and I to be happy no matter what, together or apart.
Afterwards she seemd like she felt so much better. I'm not sure if it's because she was 'relieved' of the burden of having to MAKE it work no matter what, or if it was because she could see that I truly loved her, and that I was still here by my own choice, not out of a feeling of obligation.
So, tonite and the next 3 nights we are babysitting some friends teenagers so she is staying the night at their house and bringing D10 along. We'll have to see if she misses sleeping with me. She doesn't like being alone in the house.
It's still very confusing. but I will be ok. And I think it's slowly improving. But it does slip from time to time.
You know, I think I'm about a month or two (or maybe less) behind you. The ups and downs are positivly maddening. I'm experiencing a lot of the same actions, emotions, etc. from WAW so I just try to observe and not react. This is where the work is.
Like you, I know that I will be okay in the end. Can you shed any light on some of your last MC sessions if you don't mind me asking? My WAW has the same fears - she sees and acknowledges that I have changed for the better but her big fear is that she won't be able to get it back. How, if at all has your MC addressed this?
What you say from your IC sessions is exactly what mine is telling me. Almost to the letter. I am emotionally drained and spent from carrying this thing too.
Thanks for the inspiration.
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Quote: You know, I think I'm about a month or two (or maybe less) behind you. The ups and downs are positivly maddening. I'm experiencing a lot of the same actions, emotions, etc. from WAW so I just try to observe and not react. This is where the work is.
Yeah, it's even more maddening when I get to the point to where I look at her, and I wonder if she was always this screwed up and I just didn't want to notice. I do my best to remember that there are a lot of reasons that I love her, and she does her best to test each one.
She says so much crap that reinforces the 'well I really don't know WHAT I'm going to do or feel so let's not do things that are too serious right now'. Then she has days where she's feeling like I don't care about her, and she get's needy. Which is it? You want and need my support or you don't?
If I have a day, or even an hour where I am feeling down, or a little in need of some reassurance - too bad. Sure, I get some good interactions from her from time to time, however I just can't understand how she can sit there and say
"Well, I know I didn't allow myself to believe I deserved to 'have it all' over the past 10 years and now I want it all and I deserve it. What? Like I DON'T want to have a better , more fun, more improved life? Then she can tell me to my face that she 'loves me' and want's this to work out.
That's what pisses me off - the attitude of "I didn't get what I wanted out of life with you so I'll just wait and see if you can be 'fun' again, but not put myself out there or risk". She is so selfish.
Yesterday she saw Counselor and said she got into a lot of emotional stuff. That's good.
Then she says "You'll have an interesting meeting with her next week." I say "Oh, why?" and W says "Well, I talked a lot about what my sexual needs are and she's going to talk to you about it. She says that it's easier for a neutral party to help couples communicate their needs because there's no judgementalism.".
WTF? So she can't tell me any of this because I might take it personally? What, does she want to do a donkey? I mean I know WHAT her basic desires are and she's playing this game where she doesn't want to talk to me directly about her SEXUALITY?
I've been festering about this the past day because it just pisses me off that she plants a thought, and then doesn't expand on it. So I have to wait around for my Counselor session on tuesday to have any idea what the hell her issues are.
I do know that there are certain behaviors in bed that she has told me will trigger her to feel bad stuff from her childhood abuse. So I will guess that there is some of this in the 'discussion on tuesday'.
I'm just getting tired of this crap. It's like I told Counselor this past tuesday - I do all the work, I do all the hurting, I get a tidbit here and there when SHE wants something.
Right now she in stuck in 'my life hasn't been so great, I want it to be great, I don't want to invest time into Frank to make it great with him, I just want it to magically happen, or not happen. Then I will move on."
"Oh, but I love Frank, or maybe it's the security I love".
Quote: My WAW has the same fears - she sees and acknowledges that I have changed for the better but her big fear is that she won't be able to get it back. How, if at all has your MC addressed this?
By pointing out that it won't come back overnight. And that SHE has to drop her barriers to letting it come back. Also, YOU need to go back in time and remember what you were like when she thought you were the greatest guy in the world.
Whatever happens will happen because of what YOU do to build her attraction to you.
Hi Frank....it's been a while since I've posted (and maybe that's a good thing for you), but first, congrats on all your progress. You were in such a horrible "stuck" phase before, and things are really moving, but still frustrating, I can understand. BUT, I wanted to say BRAVO to you, thumbs up, a perfect 10, and all that good stuff for being the BEST H alive. If you can, please drop by my thread to give a MALE perspective if you can...I sure would appreciate, feeling confused at H's talk/signals. I'm trying to take your lead in patience and just being a great person.
OK, have to say, the ONE time I really laughed and nearly spit my wine (horrible) was your DONKEY comment.
OK, that's done....no more laughing. I wish I could tell you what women like in bed, I could, but your W has issues from her childhood so I would be all wrong. You know, you're right in what you said. You have the basic idea, you know what she DOES NOT like due to trauma....you're a guy with hormones and desires....so YOU CAN figure this out. It's not brain surgery. I think you're right, it's about HER pulling HER barriers down, not about YOU doing the right thing. For some reason, I sense that she's feeling "in control" of life for the first time, and she's controlling...so dictating how the M shoudl work, her sexual needs (not sexuality, as you stated, VERY different topic and not one you need to worry about), timing, in love, not in love, etc.
It's frustrating, b/c you're expecting this to be logical. You said you were an engineer, right? Not always so. She's still testing, watching, thinking, dealing with issues. Good for you, at least she's sincere. But, bottom line, I think she's handling "being in control" for the first time, of her own life. She's waving that light sabor around, getting a feel for it, for how it makes you act, the kids act, the impact on her life. In my M, I did the same thing, to an extent.
So, give her some time. Pretty soon, the time will be right for you to show her, or C, that you need to work as a TEAM, and STILL maintain control and independence to a degree.
Hang in there Frank. You've turned the impossible upside down, and we all have hope through you. You are a VERY patient man. Vent here, be the best H you can be at home.
Quote: I wish I could tell you what women like in bed, I could, but your W has issues from her childhood so I would be all wrong.
I know what women like in bed, she's playing something else and that's my frustration. The "I can't talk to you about it" is not true. We talk about 'it' all the time. She's really talking about her emotional state - but not with me.
Quote: For some reason, I sense that she's feeling "in control" of life for the first time, and she's controlling...so dictating how the M shoudl work, her sexual needs (not sexuality, as you stated, VERY different topic and not one you need to worry about), timing, in love, not in love, etc.
Possibly true. Although she also seems to like to let me be dominant now. I pay all the bills, she is occasionally getting some pleasure out of spending my money again.
Quote: She's still testing, watching, thinking, dealing with issues. Good for you, at least she's sincere. But, bottom line, I think she's handling "being in control" for the first time, of her own life. She's waving that light sabor around, getting a feel for it, for how it makes you act, the kids act, the impact on her life. In my M, I did the same thing, to an extent.
Yeah, I can sense that too. She goes back and forth though, but counselor says it's so she can see if I will remain 'the same' no matter what she does.
Quote: Hang in there Frank. You've turned the impossible upside down, and we all have hope through you. You are a VERY patient man. Vent here, be the best H you can be at home.
I do the best I can. I REALLY need a break - or at least for HER to start carrying some of the ball.
You can take a break. You can put the ball down for a bit, keeping an eye on it and without walking away. Then pick it back up again. If you keep carrying it, it gets heavy and you get weak.
But, I don't think it's the time to pass the ball to W right now.
Hey, Memorial Day weekend is coming up, can you take a mini0vacation with a friend? Or just by yourself? How are you getting out of the house and breaks away from W?
I understand, this is so taxing...I'm having a break of sorts now, but it's still hard.
I haven't really said much for a little while. I think I'll post some 'facts' just for informational purposes.
W and I sleep in 'our' room all the time now. She still keeps her clothes and personal stuff downstairs. Showers downstairs. Sometimes we cuddle, sometimes we don't. About once a week we might have sex.
We talk about making changes to the house, taking trips to Disney World together and she has been making plans for the summer to visit her mom with the kids and seems to be acting as if she is going to keep working on things.
Had my 'interesting sex talk' meeting wirh counselor last week. IN a nutshell she told me al lthe things W likes and doesn't like that we have or haven't done. Example: W likes her hair stroked or brushed. She is most sensitive on the back of her neck. Sometimes she is just a 'nymph' and want's it now, other times she's a 'venus' and wants the whole romance thing.
Counselor also said that she went through a list of all the things in her life and asked her to rate them. The result is that W says she is happy/lucky to have me, her life, her kids, etc. etc. so she wants to get the marriage to work. She is very much focused on needing it to be 'complete', that the sexuality which suffered between us for so many years has to be what she wants, the 'whole package'.
I think I understand what she means, it's not anything weird, she's really saying she wants that blissful feeling sometimes when we are together. So do I.
The other day she saw counselor and later brought up th etopic of how she felt so undeserving, and how could I possibly want to be here with her after all she's done. I had asked Counselor to 'clue her in' to some of the things I had to do while she was in the fog of her affair. And how much it hurt to be forced to observe and be able to do nothing.
W did say that I was a very strong man to still be her. Counselot had told her that she had to make amends for her affair, and that she still hadn't even TOLD me it was over, she just assumed I knew this.
So W nervously talked about it, that it was over since february. I asked her if I ws ever going to have to worry about this person enterig our lives again for any reason. She said 'no, I was pretty final with him.' Then she went on to talk about what a "Sh*thead" he was, that she was so acting like a 17 year old and that she thought he would save her from her problems. Instead, she said, when she said she needed some space to work on some of her issues he got angry at her and treated her like crap. It was then that she realized what a mistake she had made. She even told me she thought he was still living off his girlfriend, that he couldn't support himself without her help and probably never told her anything about them.
I asked her if she still had any 'mementos' from her 'visit' and mentioned she had a little plastic rose I had seen at one time.
She kind of laughed and said, 'oh that, he probably got it a a 7-11 or something. And it didn't say anything romantic, it just said "I want you now!" - what a jerk'
Finally, I said "I really don't want to ask this question but I have to know. Do I have to worry that you 'caught anything'?" She was very quiet and said 'No, I used protection and when I saw thy Gynocologist I made sure I got checked'.
I said "I feel really bad that I even had to ask my WIFE that kind of question". She knows it hurts.
She was quiet for a moment and then talked a little more about us, and how hard it's going to be to fix things. I told her that when we had our argument several weeks ago that caused her to decide to try to make the marriage work, that I had given up on her then and was ready to move on with my life.
She said "yeah, it's funny how I always come back right when you're almost over me". Then she said "Please don't give up on me now, not yet". I told her I wasn't going to but to be aware that I have a lot of hurt to heal so it's going to take time. So we got some good closure there.
The past week has been full of roller coaster emotions. Sometimes she's loving, sometimes she's just present. I had a long talk with Counselor thursday and one of my issues is this "How do I know she is really coming back to ME, or is she just here because her number one choice failed, so I'm the runner up?" How do any of us know that they still love us, and that they aren't just 'falling back on what they know they can have, safety and stability?'
C said that she really believes that W loves me and that W really wants us to have a good working marriage with all the good things and none of the bad. She believes W is still wrestling with her trust issues, and she is feeling the guit still from the affair.
Yesterday W had the Girls scout troop here doing a big garage sale. I helped a lot and she got really worn out. She also had scheduled her monthly overnite to her friends house in antoher town to do her 4 massages that she does. This is the friend who was sort of instrumental in our breakup 6 years ago but since then has gotten to know me. But I assume she supported W when she said she was divorcing me and that she found her 'true love'.
She hasn't told her about any of our current situation, so this friend is going to be surpised (or, by now IS surprised) when W shows up with a new car that I obviously gave her, and W tells her we are back together and trying to make it work again.
When W left last nite to go there she said goodbye to me and said "thanks for being my support and confidant today with the girl scout sale" and I said "I'm always your confidant and support". She smiled and gave me a kiss. I walked her out to the car and we flirted a little and I gave her another kiss and she left.
She hasn't gotten home yet tonite, she won't be for another hour.
I had a little bit of anxiety - I always expect her 'friend' to get her to doubt that she can make this work with me, that she'd be happier if she started over with someone new. I don't hink her friend would mean any harm, she's probably thinking that we've tried before and it hasn't worked, so why keep trying.
Or, maybe her friend will just be happy for her and wish her luck. She's gotten to know me over the past year or so and she can see I'm a pretty nice guy.
Either way it makes me nervous. A lot can happen and W has always been easily influenced. But, W has been saying what COnselor told her "You have to live your life, not other people. What other people think about what you are doing doesn't matter. They aren't in your shoes."
Frank, sometimes when I read your thread, I think I am reading about an old friend. I am so happy for you, and yes, even happy that you're going nuts over this confusion thing. Isn't confusion a wonderful thing. SO much better than being convinced that it's all over...which you were a few times over the past several months.
I know you will do it right. You are still one of the best, and someone I look to every once in awhile to remember just how it's REALLY done.
Take care and as always, I will stay caught up on you.
