As I have mentioned on other threads, I am currently reading Passionate Marriage by David Schnard. Julie33 has been kind enough to provide a like to an old thread by NotATLDave entitled “Passionate Marriage,” started 4/15/04. On that thread and others at the time, I see comments from Tim2Point0, NotATLDave, CeMar, Hairdog, HoneyPot, Corri, SuperDave, BarneyF1fe, and others. Many of these people are still on this board. My question is why?
At the time everyone seemed very excited about the concepts in the book, the eye opening epiphanies they received and the depth of self learning they were undergoing. The book is very powerful and extremely insightful, so I can understand the excitement back then. I have not had the chance to read all the old threads, but I wonder what became of all this excitement? I recall NotATLDave posting a few months back that things were good in his marriage. So something worked for him. But he seems to be the minority. What went wrong for everyone else? Can the veterans out there give the rest of us some insight on what they have learned during this time?
For everyone else, this link here will provide a list of many posts started by NotATLDave on this topic.
I still believe that Schnarch has it largely right but his concepts are difficult and even scary to apply. I, for one, would like to see a book of just case studies from him and/or the people he has trained. I need to see more practical application. I have been thinking of re-reading him.
I have exactly the same impression. What I see on this board is that many have not been willing to follow through with the changes in themselves (i.e., differentiation) needed to effectively establish and HOLD to boundaries. Most of the people who come here do so because they believe they are the ones with the lesser degree of power in the relationship. If they had that the more powerful position, they would have forced the changes they want, and their spouses would be the ones posting here.
So many times people have said they need to firm up their backbone and rattle the cage to get things done. Corri and NOPkins seem to understand this point. But by reading Schnarch closely, you can see that the power balance is really equal, and that in many ways the person who feels like they have less control are really the ones controlling themselves!
But I’d like to hear more on whether this is true and if so, why does it happen?
Cobra I read the book and made some improvements in our M, but had many new problems that were in the background, now be come "The Issue." When two people work on the "new issue" I see hope. When one person is doing most of the lifting as I call it, I wear out.
Another thing I see not covered in the book or I missed it is the less willing spouse builds a resistance to what you thought was a solution to a problem or the lighter lifting spouse brings in more sand bags (my word for problems) and says "yes there have been improvements but this or that is getting in the way' or implies the efforts are still not good enough.
In my case, I see BB saying she is past a stage of life and thinks certain things are for people in a previous stage of life.
As a general observation the book is very good but also suffers from the "new tool effect." When a little kid gets his/her first hammer, everything needs to be hammered.
When you read the descriptions you agree with the concepts. some concepts work right away and you say to yourself "boy, am I glad I found this tool, it might be my #1 tool and really solve most of my problems."
Yes the book is a tool to solve problems but as with every tool it has it's limits. Maybe the book should have had some examples of how it might be miss applied.
I see fear of D or fear of distancing the OS as a primary problem along with what some people call black or white thinking.
Maybe Schnarch’s book needs more information on asserting ones self like the Sharon & Gordon Bower book, Asserting Your Self.
I like the concepts many of the books espouse, it’s the implementing them that is the problem.
The one big problem that I have with PM is that it really means that you would be willing to divorce. If divorce is NOT an option, then the HD spouse has Little that they can do. I would love to see a book like PM for the Christian man if there could be such a thing.
As for the power, what real power does a HD person have? One of the reasons people become LD is to CONTROL the power in a relationship. The highest levels of vulnerability lie with people that are the Highest desire, and people with ND have virtually no vulnerabilty. They are the ones that completely control their own destiny. It seems to me that the only real power that HD people have is to divorce, its the only thing that we control.
If I remember right, the book does NOT have an example of a women with NO physical desire. There was one in there who had No desire, but then it turns out that she really did have one that was just buried (so in effect she had a sex drive). But what about the women that has no sex drive at all and likely never will (due to numerous physical conditions). I don't believe he had an example of success under those conditions (and yet, is that not one of the most common conditions).
I disagree that you have to be willing to D if things the R doesn't improve. You DO have to be willing not to sell yourself out within the R. That does mean that you may not get what you want if the other person won't meet you halfway.
I find it hard to apply because you have to be willing to take a basically positive, functioning R and create discomfort and unhappiness, all the while keeping yourself calm and praying that it doesn't lead your S to the D that you were talking about. My H and I are good parnters, function well together, laugh together etc.... but whenever THE SUBJECT arises it brings up both of our anxieties, takes away the positives for a time and has yet to lead us down any better road. It has been worth it at times and not worth it at others. It takes a huge mental and emotional investment for me to try those techniques and every time I do it feels a little like throwing a grenade and then ducking and covering my ears. Surely, there has got to be an easier way. Notice, I don't know what it is and will be re-reading Schnarch and steeling myself for another horribly uncomfortable time.
Re Cemar There was one in there who had No desire, but then it turns out that she really did have one that was just buried (so in effect she had a sex drive). But what about the women that has no sex drive at all and likely never will (due to numerous physical conditions). This is why I continue to work on our R.
Determining what is real lack of desire and why, IE( no desire but willing) and maybe will improve over time, what is possible w/o creating resentments, what is possible but creates resentments, what is never going to happen so don't go there, you are digging your own grave, and what are deal breakers and can I/she handle the fall out.
Generally I agree with what you are saying as I’ve faced some of these same obstacles myself (except for the age related one’s). But I see a theme in you comments about being the one doing all the heavy lifting or BB throwing up new objections to why things aren’t good enough yet (which somehow go on forever).
Schnarch addresses this resistance and the dynamics involved, how partners even trap themselves by letting the other partner do the trapping for them. In this way, doing the heavy lifting is really a way of trapping BB into not having to do her share of the lifting, keeping her from moving forward in her development and thus allowing you to not have to confront the issues you know she will put to you (if you can follow this circular argument).
CeMar,
The one thing I can really appreciate about you is your consistency! I think I could take your comments and put them into just about any other post you’ve made a not lose and of the original meaning. The more I read Schnarch the more I see you all in it. I wonder how closely you really studied what he is saying?
As for the power, what real power does a HD person have? One of the reasons people become LD is to CONTROL the power in a relationship. The highest levels of vulnerability lie with people that are the Highest desire, and people with ND have virtually no vulnerabilty. They are the ones that completely control their own destiny. It seems to me that the only real power that HD people have is to divorce, its the only thing that we control.
This statement is right in line with the theme of almost all your comments. The focus is poor you and what you can’t have, on the power of the other person, how you are powerless and cannot control your own destiny, that to do so means you have to be the “bad” guy and force a divorce, but by taking the higher, nobler path, you are a saint and a martyr and your wife is the villain. Does anyone else get this impression?
What I see in Schnarch that pertains to you is the part on the two-choice dilemma, that I also mentioned to HeatherG. I think you play martyr in order to KEEP your wife backed into a corner and stay emotionally distant from you. This protects you from having to truly reveal yourself, yet allows you to save face by acting as the victim, staying in the marriage for sake of your kids. This is Narcissism 101.
I think your true perpetrator is yourself. The fact that you’ve been stuff in this exact same situation for 3 years or more says nothing about your wife and everything about you. Why don’t you resurrect your old thread and tell us about your FOO?
I've followed everyone's sitch on this board the past two years, thru PM, SSM and other "flavors of the day." As I've posted repeatedly, I don't personally a lot of long-term success stories here. They ONLY seem to work when BOTH spouses agree there is a problem, BOTH are willing to work at it -- persistently -- and even then, they are RARE.
Most of the "help" from these books, to me, seems to be along the lines of "Well, you won't get any more sex (or even affection an intimacy), but we'll give you some tips and techniques for feeling better about your (sex-starved/celibate) self in the process."
GAL, differentiation, 180s . . . call them what you will, but most of the advice centers around doing what's best for YOURSELF , which, of course, isn't a bad thing.
It's just not going to lead to any lasting changes in the LM department of your average marriage.
Sorry to be so negative, but that's just been my observation.
